Harley's thread - Confusing update #56

Jack's-Jane · Sep 27, 2019

~ILoveMyBunny~ said:
So the facebook group mentioned a disease similar to EC that seems to be emerging in the US, as I linked earlier.
I can't find any documented cases in rabbits in the UK, but have found several other animals such as sheep that are known to have been infected:
http://wildpro.twycrosszoo.org/S/00dis/Parasitic/Sarcocystosis.htm
https://veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/content/170/22/571.1
Seems extremely unlikely, but at the same time we've pretty much ruled out likely causes-?
I don't know :?

There are many different species of Sarcocystsis that affect different animals. S. neurona causes neurological symptoms in horses and sea mammals, while S. falcatula causes neurological symptoms in birds of prey. House Rabbit Society is doing DNA sequencing to try to determine which species of Sarcocystis is being found in rabbits. At this point, we know the species affecting rabbits is not S. neurona or S. falcatula, but there are many species of Sarcocystis, and it’s possible this could even be a closely related Apicomplex this was taken from the House Rabbit Society's page on it. So at this point it's not even known which type infects rabbits :?

Was EC ruled out from the results of just ONE blood test ? If so I'd ask for a retest now as a one off test cannot be definitive. Here's why :

http://www.greendale.co.uk/cuniculi_disease.html

Plus see 'Antemortem Diagnosis' on here :

https://www.dovepress.com/encephali...-manageme-peer-reviewed-fulltext-article-VMRR

~ILoveMyBunny~ · Sep 28, 2019

No, two blood tests, app 2 weeks apart? Possibly a bit more, not sure now. But both have been negative for EC.
Edit: Should also add, the second blood test was sent to a different lab at my vets request to see if the results remained the same

~ILoveMyBunny~ · Sep 28, 2019

Late night/early morning post as I've just noticed something that I imagine is very significant diagnostically, and I can't believe I've only just realised it..
The tilt has, at some point, reversed!!
I assume it was after his early 'recovery', where he was 95% back to normal and we thought it was all over and he was 'cured', this was a few weeks into the initial presentation. I've double checked and triple checked to be sure.. In pictures from the 9th and 15th of July his left eye is facing down. In more recent pictures and looking at him now it's his right eye facing down. I'm 100% certain.
How I haven't noticed this before I have absolutely no idea

But that has to mean something?!?

Jack's-Jane · Sep 28, 2019

~ILoveMyBunny~ said:
Late night/early morning post as I've just noticed something that I imagine is very significant diagnostically, and I can't believe I've only just realised it..
The tilt has, at some point, reversed!!
I assume it was after his early 'recovery', where he was 95% back to normal and we thought it was all over and he was 'cured', this was a few weeks into the initial presentation. I've double checked and triple checked to be sure.. In pictures from the 9th and 15th of July his left eye is facing down. In more recent pictures and looking at him now it's his right eye facing down. I'm 100% certain.
How I haven't noticed this before I have absolutely no idea
But that has to mean something?!?

The head tilts toward the direction of the lesions in the vestibular system

http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com/head-tilts-rabbits-proceedings

PS, I would still ask the Vet about another EC Titre Test. Just my personal opinion

~ILoveMyBunny~ · Sep 28, 2019

Jack's-Jane said:
PS, I would still ask the Vet about another EC Titre Test. Just my personal opinion

I am starting to wonder myself-! She did seem pretty convinced at the time that it was almost certain he'd never been exposed to EC as there was noting to indicate any exposure, but now that we've probably ruled out ear disease I'm starting to wonder.. Maybe we just timed the blood tests badly? I do think another blood test would be a good idea anyway. Though I do worry about putting him through too many if he's already anaemic?

Jack's-Jane · Sep 28, 2019

~ILoveMyBunny~ said:
I am starting to wonder myself-! She did seem pretty convinced at the time that it was almost certain he'd never been exposed to EC as there was noting to indicate any exposure, but now that we've probably ruled out ear disease I'm starting to wonder.. Maybe we just timed the blood tests badly? I do think another blood test would be a good idea anyway. Though I do worry about putting him through too many if he's already anaemic?

It's regenerative anaemia isn't it ??

~ILoveMyBunny~ · Sep 30, 2019

Jack's-Jane said:
It's regenerative anaemia isn't it ??

She was a little vague with it, but she said it 'appeared to be'.. It hadn't changed by very much though.
He's rolling more again today, though seems to have an increase in energy (if that's even possible).. He's been harassing me all day for fuss and food! Can't get any work done :lol:
It's so hard to tell if he's improving, deteriorating or just saying the same from day to day.

Jack's-Jane · Sep 30, 2019

~ILoveMyBunny~ said:
She was a little vague with it, but she said it 'appeared to be'.. It hadn't changed by very much though.
He's rolling more again today, though seems to have an increase in energy (if that's even possible).. He's been harassing me all day for fuss and food! Can't get any work done :lol:
It's so hard to tell if he's improving, deteriorating or just saying the same from day to day.

Well his general demeanour seems to indicate that he is not feeling too bad in himself. The rolling and the tilt may be more distressing for you than they are for him. It really can take MONTHS before any real improvement in clinical symptoms are seen. So Bunny's general demeanor is a better gauge for how they are doing. Some Rabbits just cannot cope at all and to push them on would be wrong. Harley certainly does not seem to be in the least bit bothered. So I'd just keep fighting on with him on a day to day basis

~ILoveMyBunny~ · Oct 3, 2019

Sorry I haven't updated in a bit.
Harley saw the vet yesterday, having had a few days where he'd been worse again with coodination/rolling.
She showed me the CT (got a shock when I saw the eye! I have no idea what I'm looking for on a CT and even I could see that was wrong) and went through everything thoroughly. Basically as far as they can tell there is absolutely nothing of significance there except for the right eye, which is bulgling and appears to have a pocked of fluid behind it. She thinks it's because of the pressure of the tilt that it's perhaps blocking the tearduct, but that it's a result of the tilt and not a cause.
In terms of treatment he's now on prednisone, 1mg twice a day for three days then down to 1mg a day for at least a week. Whilst I'm nervous about the use of streoids as I know there's a lot of controversy about their use in rabbits we have arrived at a point where nothing else is working.. And I do trust our vet. So I'm just hoping it helps..
He's off of all other medication (inc the metacam with a 24hr gap between that and starting steroids) except stemitil which has been upped to 0.05ml. He's also been put on ranitidine and as of tomorrow will have a spot on wormer (not sure which one yet) as well in case it's a tapeworm etc.
The vet also said she was going to talk to Richard Saunders to see if he has any ideas. This bun is certainly going around all the experts!
But still a bit of a mystery. EC is back on the table as a possibility but in all honesty we still don't know..
He's had a better day today - whether it's the stemitil increase or the starting of steroids I don't know but his balance has been better. He's still unstoppable with food and can't get enough.. Earlier after his meds (he always gets some pellets as a treat afterwards) he launched himself from my arms and into the pellet bag as I was too slow getting them out. He looked so funny with just his back legs out and the rest of him in the bag vacuuming them up :lol:
He's a mad little thing. Nothing will come between him and food.
She's also asked me to put him on vitamin E, 100iu a day. She said to buy either 400iu and cut the tablets into quarters or 200iu and do halves, however I'm having an incredible amount of trouble finding it in tablet form! It all seems to be capsules! The only one I've found at the right dose in tablet form is a brand called Woods, which was the one she looked at on the computer. But they say 2 weeks to 28 days for delivery!
I don't suppose anyone knows where I can buy it in tablet form and at either 400iu or 200iu? Or 100iu would work if it exists!

Jack's-Jane · Oct 3, 2019

~ILoveMyBunny~ said:
Sorry I haven't updated in a bit.
Harley saw the vet yesterday, having had a few days where he'd been worse again with coodination/rolling.
She showed me the CT (got a shock when I saw the eye! I have no idea what I'm looking for on a CT and even I could see that was wrong) and went through everything thoroughly. Basically as far as they can tell there is absolutely nothing of significance there except for the right eye, which is bulgling and appears to have a pocked of fluid behind it. She thinks it's because of the pressure of the tilt that it's perhaps blocking the tearduct, but that it's a result of the tilt and not a cause.
In terms of treatment he's now on prednisone, 1mg twice a day for three days then down to 1mg a day for at least a week. Whilst I'm nervous about the use of streoids as I know there's a lot of controversy about their use in rabbits we have arrived at a point where nothing else is working.. And I do trust our vet. So I'm just hoping it helps..
He's off of all other medication (inc the metacam with a 24hr gap between that and starting steroids) except stemitil which has been upped to 0.05ml. He's also been put on ranitidine and as of tomorrow will have a spot on wormer (not sure which one yet) as well in case it's a tapeworm etc.
The vet also said she was going to talk to Richard Saunders to see if he has any ideas. This bun is certainly going around all the experts!
But still a bit of a mystery. EC is back on the table as a possibility but in all honesty we still don't know..
He's had a better day today - whether it's the stemitil increase or the starting of steroids I don't know but his balance has been better. He's still unstoppable with food and can't get enough.. Earlier after his meds (he always gets some pellets as a treat afterwards) he launched himself from my arms and into the pellet bag as I was too slow getting them out. He looked so funny with just his back legs out and the rest of him in the bag vacuuming them up :lol:
He's a mad little thing. Nothing will come between him and food.
She's also asked me to put him on vitamin E, 100iu a day. She said to buy either 400iu and cut the tablets into quarters or 200iu and do halves, however I'm having an incredible amount of trouble finding it in tablet form! It all seems to be capsules! The only one I've found at the right dose in tablet form is a brand called Woods, which was the one she looked at on the computer. But they say 2 weeks to 28 days for delivery!
I don't suppose anyone knows where I can buy it in tablet form and at either 400iu or 200iu? Or 100iu would work if it exists!

Well there is some good news in that the CT scan showed no brain lesions or signs of otitis media. I agree that the fluid behind the eye is almost certainly a result of his head tilt, not the cause of it. The other good news is that Harley maintains his indomitable spirit ( and appetite !)

My Vet has prescribed corticosteroids in specific cases in a few of my Rabbits when all else failed. None had any adverse reaction, some being on the treatment for a relatively long time.

You could buy a powder filled capsule form of Vit E and break open the capsule. Then divide the powder into 4 (plate and sharpe knife/razor blade needed !). It's a faff and you'll feel a bit like a drug dealer, but I have had to do it at times.

https://www.solgar.co.uk/all-products/dry-vitamin-e-134-mg-200-iu-vegetable-capsules/

Or they do it in Liquid form and each 0.5ml contains 101mg of Vit E , you'd need to check with the Vet on the dose ( in ml) to give, I dont know how to convert mg into IU

https://www.solgar.co.uk/all-products/natural-source-liquid-vitamin-e-592-ml/

Sending lots more vibes

~ILoveMyBunny~ · Oct 4, 2019

Thank you Jane, it's good to hear of some positive experiences with steroids after reading about how controversial they are. So far he's doing well, it's certainly not stopping him eating. Today is his last day on the two tablets, then we go down to one a day.
He had the wormer given by a nurse today, it was Drontal.
He's been a bit better today, less rolling etc. I do suspect it's the stematil being increased, it's finally doing something to help him I think.
Regarding the vitamin e, what about the softgel capsules? Holland and Barrett do a 100iu one (vegan) which I could pick up today rather than wait:
https://www.hollandandbarrett.com/s...pMi-z7z13Mdz7S7Y7AEaAj5yEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds
I could take the liquid out and put it into a syringe? But I'm not sure about the extra ingredients?
Capsule Shell (Glycerol, Modified Corn Starch, Carrageenan, Acidity Regulator (Sodium Carbonate)), Vitamin E (as d-Alpha Tocopherol), Soya Bean Oil, Sunflower Oil
If not I could do as you suggest Jane. I suppose I'm just worried about getting the dose wrong!
Alternatively I could try to phone the vet to ask today.. The only problem is the receptionist never passes on my messages :roll: I've tried about five times now to get messages passed on and she never does it :? Twice she told me she'd get the vet to phone me and never did! Very annoying.

Jack's-Jane · Oct 4, 2019

~ILoveMyBunny~ said:
Thank you Jane, it's good to hear of some positive experiences with steroids after reading about how controversial they are. So far he's doing well, it's certainly not stopping him eating. Today is his last day on the two tablets, then we go down to one a day.
He had the wormer given by a nurse today, it was Drontal.
He's been a bit better today, less rolling etc. I do suspect it's the stematil being increased, it's finally doing something to help him I think.
Regarding the vitamin e, what about the softgel capsules? Holland and Barrett do a 100iu one (vegan) which I could pick up today rather than wait:
https://www.hollandandbarrett.com/s...pMi-z7z13Mdz7S7Y7AEaAj5yEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds
I could take the liquid out and put it into a syringe? But I'm not sure about the extra ingredients?
Capsule Shell (Glycerol, Modified Corn Starch, Carrageenan, Acidity Regulator (Sodium Carbonate)), Vitamin E (as d-Alpha Tocopherol), Soya Bean Oil, Sunflower Oil
If not I could do as you suggest Jane. I suppose I'm just worried about getting the dose wrong!
Alternatively I could try to phone the vet to ask today.. The only problem is the receptionist never passes on my messages :roll: I've tried about five times now to get messages passed on and she never does it :? Twice she told me she'd get the vet to phone me and never did! Very annoying.

Personally I'd want to run it by the Vet. The extra ingredients not being the issue as they would be in the gel capsule I assume :? It's the dosing I'd want to clarify. I'd ask the Receptionist her full name (if she does not give it) and then say 'I do expect to hear from a Vet by this afternoon please'. That way the Receptionist may be more inclined to remember to pass on your message !

Glad to hear that Henry is still coping so well and that the increased dose of Stemetil seems to be helping

Pets mum · Oct 4, 2019

Sending more vibes for Henry, pleased to hear that he is responding well to the meds. Nose rubs for your little man xxx

Harley's thread - Confusing update #56

Jack's-Jane

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~ILoveMyBunny~

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~ILoveMyBunny~

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Jack's-Jane

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~ILoveMyBunny~

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Jack's-Jane

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~ILoveMyBunny~

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Jack's-Jane

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~ILoveMyBunny~

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Jack's-Jane

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~ILoveMyBunny~

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Jack's-Jane

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