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Worried, confused and desperate

ivettef

New Kit
First, I plead that only members that have had a personal experience with a situation similar as mine, be the ones to offer ideas or comments. I know that bun lovers like to offer support and encouragement to worried parents, and I don't want to sound rude and ungrateful, but I need parents that can tell me what they tried and worked. Or, the outcome of what they tried, pros and cons. That will give me less posts to read through. Thank you for understanding.
With that said, here is Houdini's story: He was rescued in Oct/2008 from the pine barrens in Long Island, NY, was assessed to be between 6 to 9 mo. old by the Vet who did not feel he was a yr old yet. That would put him at over 11. He has been in good health for most of his years, until one bout with stasis while I was away in the UK. I blame the broccoli I introduced a few days before my trip. Dumb mom!
We come to this year, he has had a watery eye on and off for years. He got the ducts flushed a couple of times. Last time (April?) it aggravated things and the discharge was sticky. At the end of July, I noticed he was eating less pellets, but continued with his greens and hay. Poops normal so I did not worry. Some cecatropes left uneaten a couple of times but since he has arthritis of the spine, I blame that.

For the last week and a half, he is turning away from the pellets. Same pellets he has eaten for all these years: Timothy Complete, with timothy hay base, no alfalfa. He will not eat them dry, wet, pineapple flavored, with oat sprinkles, nada. He was still eating hay and greens (cilantro, italian parsley) and poops normal. Since last week, he decreased the hay, or might have stopped eating it. He has oat hay, timothy hay wafer cut, orchard and meadow hay, anything to entice him to resume consumption. His reaction to the hays is not what it used to be. These are all freshly bought packages.
He was still eating greens, although some were leftover whereas it never was.
I then bought baby lettuces package that has red and green romaine, which he loves and gulps. But, poop production changed and became less frequent and smaller. The confusing part is that he would come out from under the bed, late afternoon, all gun ho and acting normal and perky. For someone who could be in ileus, edging on stasis, why act so amazingly normal?
I am freaked out and after reading that some bun owners give their companions raw oats(steel cut, rolled) and sunflower seeds, I decided to try this. He goes for the oats eagerly, and the seeds. So, he is now on greens, oats ans sunflower seeds. Poops small and infrequent. Have been to the vet who could not see any teeth issues. Weigh was ok. I have been giving him Metacam for the arthritis, and recently added propulsid (for intestinal motility) and simethicone.
I tried force feeding and it was a struggle, I feared his arthritic spine could get hurt and after a couple times have not tried it again. I tried disguising the Critical Care with bananas, oats, pineapple juice but he will not touch it if he sniffs the hay powder. Is almost as if hay pellets and hay based stuff stinks to him. I just read this morning a suggestion of syringe feeding vegetables mix from baby food jar. I am also thinking about buying jars of dry peppermint or rosemary and sprinkle on his pellets or Critical Care, anything that might make things smell attractive again. I am drained mentally.
I need opinions on the use of oats, sunflower seeds and baby food? Did anyone have a senior rabbit change this much and be ok? The vet theorized that maybe the eye with the discharge might be affecting the duct on that side and it would make chewing uncomfortable, but why would he refused just pellets? and, why not eat them if I soften them? Why can't buns talk and tell us?
I need to add that I got an owner surrender bun a few years back who also had an eye discharge which, after flushing, was + for MRSA. Houdini had already approached him and groomed him before I found out. That was yrs ago. Oh! btw, Houdini is intact and has some sedimentation in his bladder, had it for a while. All those discomforts should be relieved by the Metacam and seem to. The vet also gave him neurontin but I did not try giving it to him. I had that med yrs ago and made me dizzy, so I was hesitant to use it on bunny.
Ok, sorry for the length of the post, I wanted to give as much detail as possible that can let people know what I already tried and the outcome. I think I covered everything!
Thank you!
 
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oops, did forget something!

I forgot to post that the vet gave me samples of other pellets (Selective and Sherwood Happier and Hoppier) and i bought alfalfa based pellets to no avail. The other bun does not like Selective either. I can't keep buying bags of different brands unless they sound promising.
 
I'm not sure about the sunflower seeds but I used to mix critical care, oats and baby food for one of my buns and he absolutely loved it (also very handy for hiding medication as well as he never noticed!). There are mixed opinions on oats as I know they can cause weight gain and some buns don't get on with them in general, but if yours isn't having any problems and if it helps him to eat something then why not use it as an additional 'supplement'. Have you had him seen by a vet? There could be other things contributing to his reluctance to eat. I used to have a bun with dental issues who would go off his nuggets when he needed to have his teeth done, but still eat oats and other treats. I think it's worth ruling anything else out with a vet as well.
 
Is he on gut medication? Like Emeprid or Cisapride? There might be others Idk.

Is your vet doing any diagnostic tests to try figure out what's happening?

I wouldn't feed seeds to a Rabbit personally or oats, but I think oats are technically safe.

I've used and use baby food for my rabbits medication daily :)

Sorry I can't be of much help, personally I'd want some tests done to try figure out why the decreased appetite.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk
 
It sounds typical of dental issues, Pellets are hard and crunchy. Hay can also be painful to eat as it requires a lot of grinding.

You could try softening his usual pellets with some water, or mixing them with some fruit or veg puree / baby food. He may also eat critical Care or similar recovery food if it is served on a saucer, rather than syringe fed.

Grass usually goes down better than hay as it is softer, but still provides the fibre needed for the gut. I would also try other fresh greens which are higher in fibre eg willow leaves, bramble leaves, other suitable local forage / weeds. Lettuce is OK but is mainly water and contains very little fibre.

Has he had any skull x-rays? There may be issues with tooth roots (hence the eye discharge and change in eating habits). It would also show up any possible abscesses, and the back teeth can be fully examined for spurs while he is sedated for the x-rays. A visual examination on a conscious rabbit's teeth is much more limited.

In the mean time. I would monitor his weight at least once a week, and try to get him to eat more fibre of a type he is more able to eat.
 
houdini

First, I plead that only members that have had a personal experience with a situation similar as mine, be the ones to offer ideas or comments. I know that bun lovers like to offer support and encouragement to worried parents, and I don't want to sound rude and ungrateful, but I need parents that can tell me what they tried and worked. Or, the outcome of what they tried, pros and cons. That will give me less posts to read through. Thank you for understanding.
With that said, here is Houdini's story: He was rescued in Oct/2008 from the pine barrens in Long Island, NY, was assessed to be between 6 to 9 mo. old by the Vet who did not feel he was a yr old yet. That would put him at over 11. He has been in good health for most of his years, until one bout with stasis while I was away in the UK. I blame the broccoli I introduced a few days before my trip. Dumb mom!
We come to this year, he has had a watery eye on and off for years. He got the ducts flushed a couple of times. Last time (April?) it aggravated things and the discharge was sticky. At the end of July, I noticed he was eating less pellets, but continued with his greens and hay. Poops normal so I did not worry. Some cecatropes left uneaten a couple of times but since he has arthritis of the spine, I blame that.

For the last week and a half, he is turning away from the pellets. Same pellets he has eaten for all these years: Timothy Complete, with timothy hay base, no alfalfa. He will not eat them dry, wet, pineapple flavored, with oat sprinkles, nada. He was still eating hay and greens (cilantro, italian parsley) and poops normal. Since last week, he decreased the hay, or might have stopped eating it. He has oat hay, timothy hay wafer cut, orchard and meadow hay, anything to entice him to resume consumption. His reaction to the hays is not what it used to be. These are all freshly bought packages.
He was still eating greens, although some were leftover whereas it never was.
I then bought baby lettuces package that has red and green romaine, which he loves and gulps. But, poop production changed and became less frequent and smaller. The confusing part is that he would come out from under the bed, late afternoon, all gun ho and acting normal and perky. For someone who could be in ileus, edging on stasis, why act so amazingly normal?
I am freaked out and after reading that some bun owners give their companions raw oats(steel cut, rolled) and sunflower seeds, I decided to try this. He goes for the oats eagerly, and the seeds. So, he is now on greens, oats ans sunflower seeds. Poops small and infrequent. Have been to the vet who could not see any teeth issues. Weigh was ok. I have been giving him Metacam for the arthritis, and recently added propulsid and simethicone.
I tried force feeding and it was a struggle, I feared his arthritic spine could be hurt and after a couple times have not tried it again. I tried disguising the Critical Care with bananas, oats, pineapple juice but he will not touch it if he sniffs the hay powder. Is almost as if hay pellets and hay based stuff stinks to him. I just read this morning a suggestion of syringe feeding vegetables mix from baby food jar. I am also thinking about buying jars of dry peppermint or rosemary and sprinkle on his pellets or Critical Care, anything that might make things smell attractive again. I am drained mentally.
I need opinions on the use of oats, sunflower seeds and baby food? Did anyone have a senior rabbit change this much and be ok? The vet theorized that maybe the eye with the discharge might be affecting the duct on that side and it would make chewing uncomfortable, but why would he refused just pellets? and, why not eat them if I soften them? Why can't buns talk and tell us?
I need to add that I got an owner surrender bun a few years back who also had an eye discharge which, after flushing, was + for MRSA. Houdini had already approached him and groomed him before I found out. That was yrs ago. Oh! btw, Houdini is intact and has some sedimentation in his bladder, had it for a while. All those discomforts should be relieved by the Metacam and seem to. The vet also gave him neurontin but I did not try giving it to him. I had that med yrs ago and made me dizzy, so I was hesitant to use it on bunny.
Ok, sorry for the length of the post, I wanted to give as much detail as possible that can let people know what I already tried and the outcome. I think I covered everything!
Thank you!
dear Ivettef,--are you syringe feeding[critical-care-???]--are you weighing bunz before and after feeding.??--Houdini -elderly bun-[??11 yr.old]-has mobility issues[metacam] is good[use as directed],-setup a special place for him to stay and-change his bedding-regularly,expect him to pee-alot--have water bowl,quality pellets-very close.. http://www.medirabbit.com and http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/poop.html these two website have a lot of info,-please view each one.--Houdini requires massive attention even if all this works-we need to get his gitract working-watch those poops/pee,s-and listen for tummy loud gurgling and teeth grinding--sincerely james waller-from the other kent-usa:love::wave:
 
I'm not sure about the sunflower seeds but I used to mix critical care, oats and baby food for one of my buns and he absolutely loved it (also very handy for hiding medication as well as he never noticed!). There are mixed opinions on oats as I know they can cause weight gain and some buns don't get on with them in general, but if yours isn't having any problems and if it helps him to eat something then why not use it as an additional 'supplement'. Have you had him seen by a vet? There could be other things contributing to his reluctance to eat. I used to have a bun with dental issues who would go off his nuggets when he needed to have his teeth done, but still eat oats and other treats. I think it's worth ruling anything else out with a vet as well.

Thank you for the response! What kind of baby food and how much? I did mix oats and a tiny amount of fresh banana and smashed it into the critical care, he smelled it and turned away:( . I even bought the fine grind Critical Care after trying the apple and bananas flavored one. I don't worry about weight gain since the bun has free range of the house and hops about. I worry about changes in the gut because of them, but is better than 0 eating. Thanks again!
 
Is he on gut medication? Like Emeprid or Cisapride? There might be others Idk.

Is your vet doing any diagnostic tests to try figure out what's happening?

I wouldn't feed seeds to a Rabbit personally or oats, but I think oats are technically safe.

I've used and use baby food for my rabbits medication daily :)

Sorry I can't be of much help, personally I'd want some tests done to try figure out why the decreased appetite.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

Thank you for helping with ideas. If those are motility drugs, he was given propulsid. After one dose, later in the day, he had two large "balls" of cecals with little poops stuck to them. He did not eat the cecals. I figured there is no blockage and since he had those kind of droppings did not give him the second dose. Just a while ago he dropped about 6 normal cecals. Nothing stuck to them. He did not eat them. I used some dry pineapple dust to coat them and fed them back. He ate some. Not sure why the cecals are not appetizing. If you can tell me about the baby food (flavor, amount) it will be great! He takes the meds well, Metacam tastes good and the gas med too, thank God i don't need to disguise them.
 
It sounds typical of dental issues, Pellets are hard and crunchy. Hay can also be painful to eat as it requires a lot of grinding.

You could try softening his usual pellets with some water, or mixing them with some fruit or veg puree / baby food. He may also eat critical Care or similar recovery food if it is served on a saucer, rather than syringe fed.

Grass usually goes down better than hay as it is softer, but still provides the fibre needed for the gut. I would also try other fresh greens which are higher in fibre eg willow leaves, bramble leaves, other suitable local forage / weeds. Lettuce is OK but is mainly water and contains very little fibre.

Has he had any skull x-rays? There may be issues with tooth roots (hence the eye discharge and change in eating habits). It would also show up any possible abscesses, and the back teeth can be fully examined for spurs while he is sedated for the x-rays. A visual examination on a conscious rabbit's teeth is much more limited.

In the mean time. I would monitor his weight at least once a week, and try to get him to eat more fibre of a type he is more able to eat.

Thank you! That was my gut feeling too, the reason for rejecting those foods. The vet did not seem to think so because she felt that he needs grinding for the other foods he is eating also. Still, my gut kept bugging me with that theory. But, since i did offered him softened pellets and Critical Care, and he rejected them, it leads me away from the theory. I did offer it in a dish, no dice. You mentioned the grass, and I thought about it after watching the wild buns outside eating it, do you mean have the bunny graze outside? I don't know how else to get fresh grass. I have to be careful because of the bladder sedimentation, vet believes in reducing high calcium foods. I am leaning towards more testing, the ones he had a year ago did not show teeth issues. He never had problems with them, but maybe...
Thank you!
 
Thank to all that responded so far, just need the type of baby food used and amounts, please. Houdini never had teeth issues that needed trimming. If it was dental, you would think that he would welcome the softened pellets and the Critical Care! And not eating the soft cecals! Could be other pains. Anyone here used neurontin/gabapantin? I am leaning towards more testing even though the lab work done earlier this year did not show any issues with kidneys, I worry because of the bladder sedimentation. He is 11, and testing has limits due to the need for sedation, plus, would I do surgery or invasive procedures if the need is found? The guilt from things going wrong if anesthesia is used would be hard to live with. Intact male buns seem to get urinary issues later in life.
 
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houdini-care for the elderly

Thank to all that responded so far, just need the type of baby food used and amounts, please. Houdini never had teeth issues that needed trimming. If it was dental, you would think that he would welcome the softened pellets and the Critical Care! And not eating the soft cecals! Could be other pains. Anyone here used neurontin/gabapantin? I am leaning towards more testing even though the lab work done earlier this year did not show any issues with kidneys, I worry because of the bladder sedimentation. He is 11, and testing has limits due to the need for sedation, plus, would I do surgery or invasive procedures if the need is found? The guilt from things going wrong if anesthesia is used would be hard to live with. Intact male buns seem to get urinary issues later in life.
dear ivettef,-you are very welcome-I have already been down the road you have entered.--gerber garden vegy,s,carrots,spinach,butternut squash-but if he eats keep offering grasses,and some quality pellets[alfalfa]-for vitamins,and add probotic powder,,lots of water,some treats.i.e..broccoli,carrots,kale,dark green and leafy..-the grasses will keep his gitract-[tonas-muscles very important]-in order,for good poops,-as far as ceco,s-if you catch him quick enough he will take-them- I guess they taste better warm,-yuk..-the meds-metacam should be enough,you probably donot want stronger meds..and you might need some infant simethicone if he has real loud gurgling,this is pain,and listen for him to grind his teeth hard[pain]..-we love Houdini,-one of my males had that name,so I thank you.--sincerely james waller from the other kent-usa:love::wave:
 
Thank you for helping with ideas. If those are motility drugs, he was given propulsid. After one dose, later in the day, he had two large "balls" of cecals with little poops stuck to them. He did not eat the cecals. I figured there is no blockage and since he had those kind of droppings did not give him the second dose. Just a while ago he dropped about 6 normal cecals. Nothing stuck to them. He did not eat them. I used some dry pineapple dust to coat them and fed them back. He ate some. Not sure why the cecals are not appetizing. If you can tell me about the baby food (flavor, amount) it will be great! He takes the meds well, Metacam tastes good and the gas med too, thank God i don't need to disguise them.
Are you in the UK? I use Ella's kitchen bananas, bananas, bananas, or just the apple one, or the mix of the two, but the just banana or just apple are in smaller pouches so I tend to get those because you only get 48 hours in the fridge once open.

With a slow gut motility, I've always kept on with motility drugs to keep things moving as that's so important, not just until something has passed, whilst we figured out what was causing it the bun not to eat.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk
 
Thank you! That was my gut feeling too, the reason for rejecting those foods. The vet did not seem to think so because she felt that he needs grinding for the other foods he is eating also. Still, my gut kept bugging me with that theory. But, since i did offered him softened pellets and Critical Care, and he rejected them, it leads me away from the theory. I did offer it in a dish, no dice. You mentioned the grass, and I thought about it after watching the wild buns outside eating it, do you mean have the bunny graze outside? I don't know how else to get fresh grass. I have to be careful because of the bladder sedimentation, vet believes in reducing high calcium foods. I am leaning towards more testing, the ones he had a year ago did not show teeth issues. He never had problems with them, but maybe...
Thank you!
I have a bunny with bladder sludge, grass is excellent for this :) the high water content is way better for them than hay apparently. You can either let him graze, or pull some out of the ground yourself and offer it to him.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk
 
Grass is excellent for fibre / gut motility. You can pull it by hand or cut eg with scissors. It doesn't cause bladder issues. It is the most natural food for rabbits, after all.
Without fibre, the gut won't be able to function properly and there will be reduced poo output. It also means the guts may slow down. Meds for GI stasis are needed until they are back to normal eating / pooing. A single dose is not likely to help much, especially if bunny isn't eating normally. Baby food (veg or fruit based purees - no cheese, meat or dairy) help to get some food into them, but contain little in the way of useful fibre.

Rabbit teeth grow continually. An examination a year ago won't help much with the current issues, I'm afraid - things can change in a couple of weeks.
 
update...

After the first day of this post, he started nibbling on some hay strands. Some cecals and small poops produced. Next day, I got 2 jars of baby food (one pumpkin and one carrots with nothing else added). Pumpkin was a hit and such a big one that the Critical Care smell and taste did not keep him away! Almost as if he sighed in relief that I finally hit on his preference.

Las night, several poops, not bad in size. Some cecals not eaten. Ate hay, funny how they sometimes won't eat something they have to pick up but will eat if handed it to them :roll: I mixed in some crushed hay pellets with the pumpkin and Critical Care (CC). He ate well. This morning he came out to say hi, which he has not done for many days. He has been eating his greens all along. Later in the morning, he was not responding to the CC mix so I added more pumpkin. I had made the mix with more CC than before.
Since he was acting a little off, I searched the area he hangs around which includes sitting on top of a suitcase. I found areas that were recently chewed in the suitcase.:evil: I had covered that area years ago when i noticed some chewing activity and it seemed that the cover had moved and he took advantage.:evil: He has the run of the house for years. It annoys me when they don't pay attention to an item for years and one day, they "discover" it and start chewing on it! He has a death wish recently! He seems to be licking more than usual, almost like a compulsion of sorts. He was licking the baseboards where the heat is generated in Winter. Maybe he is increasing chewing things too.
I covered the suitcase ( he likes to rest on top of it) and removed other things that he had started nibbling on. So, maybe healing is now slowed by this material he ate, I will have to wait a couple of days.
How do you explain these changes in preferences and routines in these guys? Houdini used to sit on a bottom shelf every morning waiting for petting, and then one day, he stopped and stayed under the bed. He used to be under my bed for years, now he wants the current "underbed" with the suitcase. You always have to be on guard because you don't know when they decide and choose to change their likes and dislikes! I tried caging him until he is fully better and, true to his name still, he escaped.
Thank you again to all who shared, it is forums like these we turn to, to gain knowledge from what others have tried and worked (after not getting definite answers from the vet).
 
dear ivettef,--looking better,--I think of a rabbits intestinal tract like a conveyer belt-when it operates smoothly good poops,-,that given there are so many factors to be aware of that interfere..with proper functioning,-from the mouth to the bum..Houdini is doing better,and sounds like you can also do a sigh of relief..but it is-never over..if he chooses only soft foods,mouth/dental may be an issue,--rabbits generally have more than one problem at once..prey animals hide their issues,--this makes treating them so difficult,but not impossible..even the Houdini..--I found out the more I knew about rabbits-pried open the door when speaking to an exotic dvm,..knowledge is power,oh and $$$..rabbits are consummate chewers,teeth constantly grow,try rabbit safe woods,aspen,popular,etc..careful there are unsafe plants,and meds..--sincerely james waller from the other kent-usa
 
If you can get hold of dual care pellets by burgess they are brilliant, high in fibre 42% and they are used in vet hospitals instead of critical care which is more expensive and less fibre. It has all the vitamins for a rabbit and you can feed them dry or soak them to syringe feed. Doughnut has never done so many poops or so big and she eats them dry now she is well again.

Good luck
 
jewaller- We have been fortunate with the 3 rabbits in our lives. Never teeth problems, even when they were not big hay eaters. We tried the wood thingys and none of the buns cared for them. He is 11 + and things will come up and will be less tolerated by his aging body. It is a matter of keeping him comfortable now. He might never go back to his pellets so we will adjust. Not all rabbits develop teeth issues, even when their diets are horrible. We got lucky!
 
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