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Wonky Mouse's Pain Management Diary

joey&boo

Wise Old Thumper
I'm useless at keeping up with recording things on paper so thought I'd make a little thread for Mouseypie.

Here's some background:

Mouse has been with us for almost 4 years, estimated to be 3-4 years by Camp Nibble when we adopted her. So reckoning on 7-8 years.

She had EC diagnosis & head tilt at Camp Nibble. For the 4 years we have had her she has always been quite wonky & clumsy in her movement (she can move really fast though). She has been on oxbow joint support tablets for about 6 months - tbh I don't know if there has been a significant difference.
Mousey really enjoys us giving her a gentle back 'massage' & manically licks the floor when we perfect our technique. Joey bun has also been grooming her regularly around her problem area so it looks like he is on board with the massages too.

She is a little underweight, ideally needs another 200g or so. I've been trying to build her up with homemade cookies made from dried forage crumbs, ground excel, a piece of grated carrot / pear & bunny approved herbs & spices. The difficulty is Joey often gets wind of Mouses treat time & he is meant to be on a diet. If I remove Mouse from the other bunnies she gets very nervy & won't eat or settle at all.

So I took Mousey to Crab Lane to see Becky. Her appetite had declined a little & she'd spent a day reluctant to move from the litter tray a few days prior.

Gosh this a long one. I'll pop back with Becky's assessment after another coffee
 
On exam Becky thought Mouse has arthritis on her mid - lower spine. Incidentally she said this area is commonly damaged by mishandling & when this happens the arthritis is pretty much inevitable. Becky was keen not to relegate Mouse to daily metacam owing to potential risks of long term use unless of course she needs it this regularly. Apparently the anti inflammatory properties of metacam can last a few weeks. The plan is to try & find a dosing regime that keeps her comfortable but gives her kidneys & liver a break. Initially she is to have 7 days on metacam (0.2ml dog), 7 days off & compare the differences drug free, on drugs, coming off them. You see why I need a diary :lol:

Significantly Mouse's self care is exemplary. She eats pack lunch, always beautifully clean, can hold her back feet up for good clean & just about stick her foot in her lug hole without falling over. She can jump in & out of the litter tray fine. No sore hocks.

Becky said the evidence base isn't really there for glucosamine but no harm in continuing. She did mention omega 3 is really good for arthritis but couldn't really recommend as no idea about dosing. Google informs me sprouts are rich in omega three so I'm going to be breaking the no cabbage in summer rule & give the buns one a day. Chia seeds also good source. Does anyone have any views as to whether these would be safe to add to her build up cookies?
 
She is now on day 4 of metacam. Day one she did a really straight sploof which is rare for her. Generally I would say she appears brighter, her appetite has improved - she was last to leave the forage buffet this morning & is back to producing boulder poops:love: We've also noticed she isn't necessarily only lying on the triple & quadrupley padded areas.
 
That’s really interesting, she definitely seems to be finding the metacam helpful. Does she take it easily?
 
That’s really interesting, she definitely seems to be finding the metacam helpful. Does she take it easily?

She gets grumpy & tries to bite the syringe so its easy enough to squirt it in as its such a tiny dose. She is my most hands off bunny though.
 
On exam Becky thought Mouse has arthritis on her mid - lower spine. Incidentally she said this area is commonly damaged by mishandling & when this happens the arthritis is pretty much inevitable. Becky was keen not to relegate Mouse to daily metacam owing to potential risks of long term use unless of course she needs it this regularly. Apparently the anti inflammatory properties of metacam can last a few weeks. The plan is to try & find a dosing regime that keeps her comfortable but gives her kidneys & liver a break. Initially she is to have 7 days on metacam (0.2ml dog), 7 days off & compare the differences drug free, on drugs, coming off them. You see why I need a diary :lol:

Significantly Mouse's self care is exemplary. She eats pack lunch, always beautifully clean, can hold her back feet up for good clean & just about stick her foot in her lug hole without falling over. She can jump in & out of the litter tray fine. No sore hocks.

Becky said the evidence base isn't really there for glucosamine but no harm in continuing. She did mention omega 3 is really good for arthritis but couldn't really recommend as no idea about dosing. Google informs me sprouts are rich in omega three so I'm going to be breaking the no cabbage in summer rule & give the buns one a day. Chia seeds also good source. Does anyone have any views as to whether these would be safe to add to her build up cookies?

I had no idea about Chia seeds and whether they were OK for rabbits, although knew that the seeds are from a Salvia. Have just had a look and they come from Salvia Hispanica. Further looking reveals that they have been used in trials to improve nutritional qualities of eggs from hens fed on Chia and meat from rabbits fed on Chia. The link is https://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2012/171956/ Based on this I would assume that they are perfectly OK to add to Mouse's food. I can't find anywhere which advises on quantity though, which is a problem. Too little and you could be wasting your time and too much might cause a digestive issue.
 
Endeavour was diagnosed with early onset arthritis when he was about 2 (he's 6 now). I have found that his pain levels can fluctuate a lot. He is not on permanent analgesia, but he has had periods of time when it has been essential (usually Metacam but on a few occasions Tramadol). My Vet also wanted/wants to balance the need for good pain control with the risks of giving it on a daily basis.

My Vet is a great advocate of Acupuncture and Cold laser therapy. Not sure if your Vet has made any mention of either of these ? Not all Rabbits will tolerate the treatments though, with 'hands off' type Rabbits they may cause too much stress which would be counterproductive.

Endeavour certainly benefits from massage and it sounds as though Mouse does too.

There is also physiotherapy, trying to minimise muscle wastage with arthritis is important.

http://www.helpinghandsvetphysio.co.uk/rabbits/

Curcumin has been proven to be beneficial in slowing the degenerative process of osteoarthritis

https://arthritis-research.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13075-016-1025-y

No idea of dose rates for Bunnies though xx
 
I had no idea about Chia seeds and whether they were OK for rabbits, although knew that the seeds are from a Salvia. Have just had a look and they come from Salvia Hispanica. Further looking reveals that they have been used in trials to improve nutritional qualities of eggs from hens fed on Chia and meat from rabbits fed on Chia. The link is https://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2012/171956/ Based on this I would assume that they are perfectly OK to add to Mouse's food. I can't find anywhere which advises on quantity though, which is a problem. Too little and you could be wasting your time and too much might cause a digestive issue.

Ohhhh thanks Omi, that sounds encouraging. Thanks so much. I'll have to consult Joey the herbalist about quantities
 
Endeavour was diagnosed with early onset arthritis when he was about 2 (he's 6 now). I have found that his pain levels can fluctuate a lot. He is not on permanent analgesia, but he has had periods of time when it has been essential (usually Metacam but on a few occasions Tramadol). My Vet also wanted/wants to balance the need for good pain control with the risks of giving it on a daily basis.

My Vet is a great advocate of Acupuncture and Cold laser therapy. Not sure if your Vet has made any mention of either of these ? Not all Rabbits will tolerate the treatments though, with 'hands off' type Rabbits they may cause too much stress which would be counterproductive.

Endeavour certainly benefits from massage and it sounds as though Mouse does too.

There is also physiotherapy, trying to minimise muscle wastage with arthritis is important.

http://www.helpinghandsvetphysio.co.uk/rabbits/

Curcumin has been proven to be beneficial in slowing the degenerative process of osteoarthritis

https://arthritis-research.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13075-016-1025-y

No idea of dose rates for Bunnies though xx

Thanks Jj. That looks like good reading material. Yes I fear the travel & stranger contact could be counter productive with Mousey (Boo would love it, Joey & Rudey tolerate it)

Do you find Endeavor to be more stable for a while when he comes off it ?(ie from ongoing anti inflammatory effects)

I love how Joe grooms Mouse in the exact area Becky highlighted to be a problem. I believe bunnies have a lot more insight into what ails them & their warren members than we give them credit for
 
I will be following this with great intrest. How did Becky know what the problem area was? Could she feel something that is not right?

I agree about no metacam all the time. I don't know about Mouseypie but Dennis has really good days and doddery days. When he is having a bad day Maple knows to leave him and not lay on him, or even request for grooming. The only thing I was going to ask Jacks Jane was o thought buns had to be weaned off metacam so would it be an issue to give sporadically when needed?

My research tells me that it can be diagnosed with xrays but I am not happy to give Dennis a GA for this.

How do you know where to massage? Or do you do full body. I actually have a massage book for rabbits - not sure how savvy it is but I think she mentions athritic conditions

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk
 
Thanks Jj. That looks like good reading material. Yes I fear the travel & stranger contact could be counter productive with Mousey (Boo would love it, Joey & Rudey tolerate it)

Do you find Endeavor to be more stable for a while when he comes off it ?(ie from ongoing anti inflammatory effects)


I love how Joe grooms Mouse in the exact area Becky highlighted to be a problem. I believe bunnies have a lot more insight into what ails them & their warren members than we give them credit for

It really does vary. I had assumed that as Rabbits have a rapid clearance rate for Meloxicam (the active ingredient in Metacam) that there would be very little residual/accumulative anti-inflammatory effects once dosing ceased.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16521861

:?
 
I don't want to introduce negativity into this debate, but I think you should do some reading about the difference between animal-based Omega 3 and plant-based Omega 3. I remember doing some research a few years ago when I had very painful Osteoarthritis of the hips and before they were replaced. In summary, my understanding is that most plant-based sources of Omega 3 are different to and inferior to animal-based ones. The exception to this is Omega 3 from supplements based on microalgae.

The problem is that Omega 3, which is animal-based is rich in EPA and DHA and it is these two, which has been proven to provide the benefits. Most plant-based Omega 3 (apart from microalgae) provides ALA. The body struggles to convert this to EPA and DHA and most of it is not used.

Have a look at these links : https://tonic.vice.com/en_us/article/gqynxw/the-fatal-flaw-of-the-vegan-diet, https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/11-proven-health-benefits-of-chia-seeds, https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/omega-3-supplement-guide, https://www.huffpost.com/entry/are-...s-equally-good-for_b_590ccfcae4b0f71180724461

Maybe some vegans on the forum have a view on this. It would have been interesting to discuss with Becky, as her mind is obviously more science-friendly than mine :lol: I don't know how you would be able to find out whether rabbits could have microalgae :shock:
 
I don't want to introduce negativity into this debate, but I think you should do some reading about the difference between animal-based Omega 3 and plant-based Omega 3. I remember doing some research a few years ago when I had very painful Osteoarthritis of the hips and before they were replaced. In summary, my understanding is that most plant-based sources of Omega 3 are different to and inferior to animal-based ones. The exception to this is Omega 3 from supplements based on microalgae.

The problem is that Omega 3, which is animal-based is rich in EPA and DHA and it is these two, which has been proven to provide the benefits. Most plant-based Omega 3 (apart from microalgae) provides ALA. The body struggles to convert this to EPA and DHA and most of it is not used.

Have a look at these links : https://tonic.vice.com/en_us/article/gqynxw/the-fatal-flaw-of-the-vegan-diet, https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/11-proven-health-benefits-of-chia-seeds, https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/omega-3-supplement-guide, https://www.huffpost.com/entry/are-...s-equally-good-for_b_590ccfcae4b0f71180724461

Maybe some vegans on the forum have a view on this. It would have been interesting to discuss with Becky, as her mind is obviously more science-friendly than mine :lol: I don't know how you would be able to find out whether rabbits could have microalgae :shock:

Ooooo this is really interesting. Possibly a little bit over my head but I'll have a go at reading the link !
 
Ooooo this is really interesting. Possibly a little bit over my head but I'll have a go at reading the link !

Well over mine too :lol: I used to hate Biology and Chemistry as much as I hated the teachers for those two subjects :lol:

I do find the whole issue about supplements very interesting though and suspect that the actual facts of their benefit might not always be what people imagine. And of course these links were aimed at human digestion, whereas rabbits might process nutrients quite differently.
 
I will be following this with great intrest. How did Becky know what the problem area was? Could she feel something that is not right?

I agree about no metacam all the time. I don't know about Mouseypie but Dennis has really good days and doddery days. When he is having a bad day Maple knows to leave him and not lay on him, or even request for grooming. The only thing I was going to ask Jacks Jane was o thought buns had to be weaned off metacam so would it be an issue to give sporadically when needed?

My research tells me that it can be diagnosed with xrays but I am not happy to give Dennis a GA for this.

How do you know where to massage? Or do you do full body. I actually have a massage book for rabbits - not sure how savvy it is but I think she mentions athritic conditions

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk

that's amazing such a book exists

Becky seemed to know from feeling her spine. I didn't know about weaning off metacam
 
I don't want to introduce negativity into this debate, but I think you should do some reading about the difference between animal-based Omega 3 and plant-based Omega 3. I remember doing some research a few years ago when I had very painful Osteoarthritis of the hips and before they were replaced. In summary, my understanding is that most plant-based sources of Omega 3 are different to and inferior to animal-based ones. The exception to this is Omega 3 from supplements based on microalgae.

The problem is that Omega 3, which is animal-based is rich in EPA and DHA and it is these two, which has been proven to provide the benefits. Most plant-based Omega 3 (apart from microalgae) provides ALA. The body struggles to convert this to EPA and DHA and most of it is not used.

Have a look at these links : https://tonic.vice.com/en_us/article/gqynxw/the-fatal-flaw-of-the-vegan-diet, https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/11-proven-health-benefits-of-chia-seeds, https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/omega-3-supplement-guide, https://www.huffpost.com/entry/are-...s-equally-good-for_b_590ccfcae4b0f71180724461

Maybe some vegans on the forum have a view on this. It would have been interesting to discuss with Becky, as her mind is obviously more science-friendly than mine :lol: I don't know how you would be able to find out whether rabbits could have microalgae :shock:

I managed to understand the very basics of that one :lol I'm pleased you brought it up before i bought any of the nasty little things (chia seed) & put my faith into something unlikely to work
 
I don't want to introduce negativity into this debate, but I think you should do some reading about the difference between animal-based Omega 3 and plant-based Omega 3. I remember doing some research a few years ago when I had very painful Osteoarthritis of the hips and before they were replaced. In summary, my understanding is that most plant-based sources of Omega 3 are different to and inferior to animal-based ones. The exception to this is Omega 3 from supplements based on microalgae.

The problem is that Omega 3, which is animal-based is rich in EPA and DHA and it is these two, which has been proven to provide the benefits. Most plant-based Omega 3 (apart from microalgae) provides ALA. The body struggles to convert this to EPA and DHA and most of it is not used.

Have a look at these links : https://tonic.vice.com/en_us/article/gqynxw/the-fatal-flaw-of-the-vegan-diet, https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/11-proven-health-benefits-of-chia-seeds, https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/omega-3-supplement-guide, https://www.huffpost.com/entry/are-...s-equally-good-for_b_590ccfcae4b0f71180724461

Maybe some vegans on the forum have a view on this. It would have been interesting to discuss with Becky, as her mind is obviously more science-friendly than mine :lol: I don't know how you would be able to find out whether rabbits could have microalgae :shock:
This is something I've been very interested in, and plant-based nutrition generally. IIRC, a lot of nutrients are absorbed differently from plants and animals (a lot is to do with cell breakdown, GCSE Science tells you that plants have hard-walled cells, animals have soft-walled, as a basic intro). As humans evolved to eat a generally mixed diet, we absorb some things better from animals, some from plants. I would expect (but have no scientific evidence at all, mere speculation) that rabbits could absorb plant-based nutrients better generally, however they might be unable to absorb the 'extra' quantities needed given their propensity to be the sort of animal that's quite fragile, predated and breeds a lot :S
 
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