• Forum/Server Upgrade If you are reading this you have made it to the upgraded forum. Posts made on the old forum after 26th October 2023 have not been transfered. Everything else should be here. If you find any issues please let us know.
  • Please Note - Medical Advice

    Please keep in mind that posts on this forum are from members of the public sharing personal opinions. It is not a replacement for qualified medical advice from a veterinarian. Many illnesses share similar symptoms but require different treatments. A medical exam is necessary for an accurate diagnosis, without which appropriate treatment cannot be given.

    You should always consult your vet before following any suggestions for medication or treatment you have read about. The wrong treatment could make your rabbit worse or mean your vet is unable to give the correct treatment because of drug interactions. Even non prescription drugs can do harm if given inappropriately.

    We are very grateful to members who take time to answer other members questions, but please do be clear in your replies that you are sharing personal experience and not giving instructions on what must be done.

    Urgent Medical Advice: If you need, or think you might need, urgent medical advice you should contact a vet. If it is out of working hours phone your vet's normal number and there should be an answer phone message with instructions on what to do.

Congestive heart failure and ACE inhibitors?

Hi there,

I have just joined as I'm struggling to find anyone with any experience on this condition. In May my bunny Snoopy was diagnosed (via x-ray) with congestive heart failure/ enlarged heart. He was immediately started on Vetmedin and frusol. These really seemed to help in and I was told it was early stage, that most wouldn't have even noticed his symptoms. He had no breathing issues until last week.

Last week he started making a wheezing sound so we went back the vet. She is rabbit savvy and has been brilliant. She's now added the ACE inhibitor (Fortekor,) which we started on Tuesday.
However, I am aware with it lowering BP it can make them lethargic. But he is barely moving since these started. He's still eating fine and shows enthusiasm for food and his partner, but the rest of the time he's lying down doing nothing. His gut and bladder are all working fine. The extreme lethargy only started on this drug so I'm not sure I'm doing the right thing with this.

He also had inflamed fatty tissue, which we have successfully treated with antibiotics on loxicom. I am wondering if all these drugs have just got too much for him and that maybe when we stop the antibiotics this week he may pick up.

Has anyone got any experience with any of these drugs or heart failure itself? Or anyone used marbocyl and noticed side effects?

Also, the dose of Fortekor he's on, means I have to divide a tiny pill into 10 pieces. I have no idea how to do this with complete accuracy. So, if anything he is getting a lower dose.

Any experience or advice would be hugely appreciated. We are back at the vets this week anyway, but he's a really rare case and I really would love to hear from anyone who's experienced this or any of the drugs.

TIA if you can help that would be amazing. I have tried various groups and no one seems to have experienced this. I feel like I am alone and worried about doing the right thing by Snoopyxxx
 
Hi there,

I have just joined as I'm struggling to find anyone with any experience on this condition. In May my bunny Snoopy was diagnosed (via x-ray) with congestive heart failure/ enlarged heart. He was immediately started on Vetmedin and frusol. These really seemed to help in and I was told it was early stage, that most wouldn't have even noticed his symptoms. He had no breathing issues until last week.

Last week he started making a wheezing sound so we went back the vet. She is rabbit savvy and has been brilliant. She's now added the ACE inhibitor (Fortekor,) which we started on Tuesday.
However, I am aware with it lowering BP it can make them lethargic. But he is barely moving since these started. He's still eating fine and shows enthusiasm for food and his partner, but the rest of the time he's lying down doing nothing. His gut and bladder are all working fine. The extreme lethargy only started on this drug so I'm not sure I'm doing the right thing with this.

He also had inflamed fatty tissue, which we have successfully treated with antibiotics on loxicom. I am wondering if all these drugs have just got too much for him and that maybe when we stop the antibiotics this week he may pick up.

Has anyone got any experience with any of these drugs or heart failure itself? Or anyone used marbocyl and noticed side effects?

Also, the dose of Fortekor he's on, means I have to divide a tiny pill into 10 pieces. I have no idea how to do this with complete accuracy. So, if anything he is getting a lower dose.

Any experience or advice would be hugely appreciated. We are back at the vets this week anyway, but he's a really rare case and I really would love to hear from anyone who's experienced this or any of the drugs.

TIA if you can help that would be amazing. I have tried various groups and no one seems to have experienced this. I feel like I am alone and worried about doing the right thing by Snoopyxxx

Hello

I have had a few Rabbits who were diagnosed with CHF and were prescribed the same drug regime as your Rabbit. None of my Rabbits became more lethargic as a result of any of the drugs, quite the opposite infact.

It is often the case that as heart disease progresses the drug doses need to be altered and regular blood tests are also usually needed. So I would give your Vet a call today and make an appointment for Snoopy to be reviewed again. Or the Vet may give you telephone advice in the first instance.

What strength Fortekor tablets has your Vet dispensed and what dose is Snoopy on ? Perhaps you could discuss having a Fortekor compound made for Snoopy- an example of what I mean here :

https://www.ed.ac.uk/vet/services/pharmacy/compoundingpharmacies

Finally, a couple of links re CHF

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Cardiology/Failure/congestive.htm

http://wildpro.twycrosszoo.org/S/00dis/Miscellaneous/CongestiveHeartFailureRabbit.htm
 
Last edited:
Hello, my Toby is on half a Fortekor daily and I have never seen any signs of low blood pressure (yet) . He is a very wizzy roundy bun so would be very noticeable if he did. I think it was mentioned to me that the ears could go cold if it did along side looking lethargic. Toby is not on any other drugs at this moment other than metacam

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk
 
Thank you, this is interesting as I thought they were a common combination. I did ask if I could make up a solution and she said no, so I'm not completely sure on that! He's on the 2.5mg tablet, one tenth of that! I have stopped it fr today and he already seems brighter, which is odd. I'm hoping to take him in tomorrow, just waiting to hear back from the vet. I am wondering if the antibiotics he's on are knocking him slightly in combination with all the heart drugs and he's also on loxicom. I'm not sure if any of these may interact. I know they're not supposed to, but it's odd he seems so lethargic since starting the drug. I was really hoping for a huge improvement as I had read they become more lively. I assume we're on quite a low dose (he weighs 2.3kg I think - he's on a very strict diet as we cannot get weight off him no matter what we do!).
I'm very confused as to why he'd become so lethargic - he has been for ages, but this past week has been the worst. He's eating and all else is normal,his breathing sounds better too.
I will see what the vet said tomorrow. If I can find a better way to get the fortekor into him I certainly will as it's a complete nightmare!
Thanks for your help, I will see what the vet says when I hear from them :)
 
Hi there,

I have just joined as I'm struggling to find anyone with any experience on this condition. In May my bunny Snoopy was diagnosed (via x-ray) with congestive heart failure/ enlarged heart. He was immediately started on Vetmedin and frusol. These really seemed to help in and I was told it was early stage, that most wouldn't have even noticed his symptoms. He had no breathing issues until last week.

Last week he started making a wheezing sound so we went back the vet. She is rabbit savvy and has been brilliant. She's now added the ACE inhibitor (Fortekor,) which we started on Tuesday.
However, I am aware with it lowering BP it can make them lethargic. But he is barely moving since these started. He's still eating fine and shows enthusiasm for food and his partner, but the rest of the time he's lying down doing nothing. His gut and bladder are all working fine. The extreme lethargy only started on this drug so I'm not sure I'm doing the right thing with this.

He also had inflamed fatty tissue, which we have successfully treated with antibiotics on loxicom. I am wondering if all these drugs have just got too much for him and that maybe when we stop the antibiotics this week he may pick up.

Has anyone got any experience with any of these drugs or heart failure itself? Or anyone used marbocyl and noticed side effects?

Also, the dose of Fortekor he's on, means I have to divide a tiny pill into 10 pieces. I have no idea how to do this with complete accuracy. So, if anything he is getting a lower dose.

Any experience or advice would be hugely appreciated. We are back at the vets this week anyway, but he's a really rare case and I really would love to hear from anyone who's experienced this or any of the drugs.

TIA if you can help that would be amazing. I have tried various groups and no one seems to have experienced this. I feel like I am alone and worried about doing the right thing by Snoopyxxx


Hi there and welcome to the Forum :wave:


I have lots of experience of this condition, and my rabbits have always done well with the medication you've been prescribed. Yes it can lower Blood Pressure, and this can make them lethargic. However, this is by no means always the case.

Vetmedin can cause lethargy in some animals:

https://www.petmd.com/pet-medication/vetmedin

Here's the data sheet for Vetmedin:

http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/?id=-461062


What I would suggest is let your vet know everything - keep a day by day diary and note things down.
This will help your vet to adjust the dosage of the medication, which is probably the most important thing he can do at this stage!

Don't hesitate to contact me if I can be of further help :)
 
I am pretty sure when I had a rabbit on Fortikor that it was in a small bottle. Sending vibes for Snoopy.
 
Thanks Loobers, I'm wondering if there is a connection. Can I ask how much your Toby weighs as I'm not sure if Snoopy is on a really low dose? This is what I was hoping to see so I'm wondering if something else maybe going on. He has necrotic inflamed tissue as well, which has been well controlled but I am wondering if the drugs for that are having an effect with the Fortekor. I haven't given Fortekor since yesterday morning and he is so much brighter so I feel there has to be a connection. I am just completely confused as to what it may be! His ears haven't been cold that I've noticed, but I will keep an eye out. It's a bit of a nightmare as my bunny vet is off most of this week, if we can't get in tomorrow (currently waiting to hear back) then we will have to wait until Monday. Seeing how different he is without the fortekor already today I am leaning towards the drug causing some kind of issue. But why, I really can't fathom! Perhaps because of the antibiotic, we finish that tomorrow so I will get a more accurate picture.
 
Hi there and welcome to the Forum :wave:


I have lots of experience of this condition, and my rabbits have always done well with the medication you've been prescribed. Yes it can lower Blood Pressure, and this can make them lethargic. However, this is by no means always the case.

Vetmedin can cause lethargy in some animals:

https://www.petmd.com/pet-medication/vetmedin

Here's the data sheet for Vetmedin:

http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/?id=-461062


What I would suggest is let your vet know everything - keep a day by day diary and note things down.
This will help your vet to adjust the dosage of the medication, which is probably the most important thing he can do at this stage!

Don't hesitate to contact me if I can be of further help :)

Thank you! I am keeping a record of everything. He's been on Vetmedin a few months now and it seemed to give him more energy. Unfortunately, he then got hit by this inflamed fatty tissue and was put on antibiotics for 4 weeks as well as high dose loxicom. This is where I've been confused as the pain from that condition has gone, but his lethargy has increased. It seemed to significantly increase as soon as we added the Fortekor. It may just be coincidence, but I decided to try him today without the Fortekor (Last dose given first thing yesterday) and he seems so much more lively. Again, it could be coincidence.

Thanks so much for the links, I will have a good read and keep a note of everything. I'm not sure if my vet will be available this week and I don't fully trust the others at the practice. So I'm just going to see how he is without the fortekor and also how he is when he finishes his antibiotics tomorrow. For some reason I feel like the antibiotics could be partly to blame for the lethargy.

Thank you, it's great to meet people who have experience with these drugs as I've struggled to get any answers from anyone. My vet was also consulting John Chitty initially, so I think I'll ask her to do that again if it seems the fortekor is causing the lethargy. Bit of trial and error needed this week I think before I go back with him. He's eating and all else is fine, he's just become incredibly slow this past week :/ Sorry I'm so new to this group I'm posting all over the place, I couldn't seem to just click 'reply'!
 
One of my previous rabbits had congestive heart failure and was on similar medication. I just wanted to wish you the best with his treatment, it was a stressful time for me and the rabbit! But once we'd got settled into his treatment he did well for a time. He was on marbocyl at one point and we didn't notice any side effects.
 
Thanks Loobers, I'm wondering if there is a connection. Can I ask how much your Toby weighs as I'm not sure if Snoopy is on a really low dose? This is what I was hoping to see so I'm wondering if something else maybe going on. He has necrotic inflamed tissue as well, which has been well controlled but I am wondering if the drugs for that are having an effect with the Fortekor. I haven't given Fortekor since yesterday morning and he is so much brighter so I feel there has to be a connection. I am just completely confused as to what it may be! His ears haven't been cold that I've noticed, but I will keep an eye out. It's a bit of a nightmare as my bunny vet is off most of this week, if we can't get in tomorrow (currently waiting to hear back) then we will have to wait until Monday. Seeing how different he is without the fortekor already today I am leaning towards the drug causing some kind of issue. But why, I really can't fathom! Perhaps because of the antibiotic, we finish that tomorrow so I will get a more accurate picture.
Toby weighs 2.9 and I was warned low blood pressure is a side effect. Maybe there are other options you could try? Xx
P.s he takes the tablet raw so I think it could be tasty? I literally just put it in a bowl
Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
Thank you :) It is incredibly stressful isn't it? Just working out what his problem is has been a crazy journey as literally no one believed there was anything wrong with him... but you notice when you see your bunny listing to one side in his sleep, getting slower day by day etc.
I have learned today that if he had aortic stenosis the ACE inhibitors would be contraindicated. We don't know if he has that as he's only had an x-ray. So now I'm really starting to wonder and hoping my vet will confer with John Chitty again. I just want to know we're on the right treatment and that it won't harm him, but at the moment I'm very unsure. :(

One of my previous rabbits had congestive heart failure and was on similar medication. I just wanted to wish you the best with his treatment, it was a stressful time for me and the rabbit! But once we'd got settled into his treatment he did well for a time. He was on marbocyl at one point and we didn't notice any side effects.
 
The trouble was the tablet had turned half to powder by the time I'd cut it into 10 lol. So I couldn't hand feed it otherwise I'd think he'd take it too. I'm hoping there's an alternative. It was diagnosed as CHF but I'm not sure we were 100% on what heart condition it is - other than we know his heart is very large and probable fluid on the lungs. Now I'm thinking it may a heart condition that deteriorates with ACE inhibitors. This was just put forward to me by a friend who's studied all this. I'm totally lost now, but it would make sense as he went hugely downhill on Fortekor. His quality of life until I stopped in yesterday was awful. It made his breathing quieter but he wasn't moving an inch except to eat.
He also does this odd little sneeze now and then. It's not snuffles or anything like that, it's not even a proper sneeze, but feel it's got to be connected. Gosh it's such a minefield isn't it? It's so sad the lack of research available and that we have to google ourselves to death to get the appropriate treamtnet, if this turns out to be the case. I'm so sad for him xxx
Toby weighs 2.9 and I was warned low blood pressure is a side effect. Maybe there are other options you could try? Xx
P.s he takes the tablet raw so I think it could be tasty? I literally just put it in a bowl
Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk
 
Sorry to bring up an old thread, I just remembered I posted here and I wanted to update it all and gather some more of your experiences with Fortekor.
Basically I stopped the fortekor after a week or two with Snoopy as vet felt it 'didn't suit him'. He was on a course of marbocyl (abx) at the time we tried fortekor and I wrongly assumed the fortekor was making him lethargic! It turns out his little body cannot handle antibiotics. So once we stopped the 4 month course I restarted Snoopy on Fortekor and he's done amazing!
Unfortunately, he also developed a base ear abscess and had to be put on septrin for 3 weeks, when we nearly lost him. It's definitely the antibiotics that affect him not the fortekor.

I just wonder what the life expectancy maybe for buns on fortekor? I've not dared ask the vet yet and I will, but wanted to get experience from people who have used it? xxx
 
Sorry to bring up an old thread, I just remembered I posted here and I wanted to update it all and gather some more of your experiences with Fortekor.
Basically I stopped the fortekor after a week or two with Snoopy as vet felt it 'didn't suit him'. He was on a course of marbocyl (abx) at the time we tried fortekor and I wrongly assumed the fortekor was making him lethargic! It turns out his little body cannot handle antibiotics. So once we stopped the 4 month course I restarted Snoopy on Fortekor and he's done amazing!
Unfortunately, he also developed a base ear abscess and had to be put on septrin for 3 weeks, when we nearly lost him. It's definitely the antibiotics that affect him not the fortekor.

I just wonder what the life expectancy maybe for buns on fortekor? I've not dared ask the vet yet and I will, but wanted to get experience from people who have used it? xxx

I am sorry that Snoopy has an ear abscess now too. Has the Vet given you a full explanation of the condition ? A treatment plan going forward etc ?

Re the Fortekor for Snoopy's CHF your question of 'how long' is not really one that can be accurately answered. I have had Rabbits do well on it for over a year. Some almost 2 years. It really does depend on the individual case and whether the Rabbit has any additional health problems.

I am glad that at the moment Snoopy is doing well on Fortekor.
 
Sorry to bring up an old thread, I just remembered I posted here and I wanted to update it all and gather some more of your experiences with Fortekor.
Basically I stopped the fortekor after a week or two with Snoopy as vet felt it 'didn't suit him'. He was on a course of marbocyl (abx) at the time we tried fortekor and I wrongly assumed the fortekor was making him lethargic! It turns out his little body cannot handle antibiotics. So once we stopped the 4 month course I restarted Snoopy on Fortekor and he's done amazing!
Unfortunately, he also developed a base ear abscess and had to be put on septrin for 3 weeks, when we nearly lost him. It's definitely the antibiotics that affect him not the fortekor.

I just wonder what the life expectancy maybe for buns on fortekor? I've not dared ask the vet yet and I will, but wanted to get experience from people who have used it? xxx
Good morning, , my Toby had an enlarged heart and was on Fortekor. Toby was having stasis troubles weekly which was triggered by the loss of his wife bun. Once he was on fortekor we didn't have an episode for five months! When he did have an episode vet (gold rated savvy vet) said he has to stop the Fortekor when he was in the hospital as the gut was acting slow and irratic so was unsafe. He stopped it for three days and was given the all clear to go home and restart forekor the next morning. Toby died on the way home from the vets that evening in the car of a heart attack. Toby was 2 years old

I would like people to know that if you're bunny has stasis episode and has a heart condition I would leave the bunny there and resume normal heart meds before travelling home. Even if that means they stay in hospital an extra one or two days just to stabilise them. Other than his stasis episodes he had no other symptoms and was a happy bouncy little boy and was only diagnosed through xrays.

I would also ensure the medication is like clock work and choose a time of the day you can give it on the dot. Toby used to eat his tablet just as it was and I didn't have to hide it - he was either very greedy or it was very yummy!

I think everything with your bunny sounds really positive and I send lots of continue to do well vibes. I hope your bunny has a long bunderful life and cherish every day! Xxx

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk
 
Back
Top