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Thread: Emphysema

  1. #1
    Warren Scout Jasperello's Avatar
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    Default Emphysema

    Hi everyone,

    So my Jasper has been a poorly bunny for a month now, and we have been passed to Craig the exotic specialist at Chine House again. Unfortunately my only previous experience of Chine House was with Millie...which didn't end well. So naturally I was beside myself when I had to return there with Jasp, and cue me sobbing on the waiting room floor with my bunnies, by myself, having to hand them over to be admitted for 3 days. But I digress, so details:

    Jasper, M, outdoor, neutered, (bonded with Lola).
    *noticed he was breathing noticeably heavier and faster than the other 4, initially convinced myself I was over-reacting and he was fine, but should have trusted my instinct

    *Emergency app at vets on a Saturday, oxygen needed, X rays taken of 2 views (not under anaesthetic) which led to a query of pneumonia, enlarged heart, possible mass, heart failure etc. and a referral to Craig.

    *Immediately started antibiotics, option to admit to OOH vets or take home and monitor every hour in the night and more meds at 3am- I took him home.

    *Returned the next day on Sunday, no improvement.

    *Monday emergency appointment to see Craig. His take on the views of the x-ray was Jasper's lungs looked over inflated with trapped air. Ultrasound gave no extra clues.

    *Tuesday blood results came back but needed to be reviewed by Craig on Wednesday- a small indication in one aspect of the white cell count for infection, nothing major, and nothing unearthed of any real help. Meanwhile, talk of an MRI at another vets, but this was apparently going to cost over £1200 alone.

    *Wednesday no further suggestion of an MRI and a long day of waiting for a decision on next steps. So after a lot of protective 'mother bear' fussing by me, I make the drive down at 4.30 ready for a polite but firm 'I'm not leaving until someone tells me what's going on' discussion, when I get a phone call mid-journey to say I can take Jasp and Lo home!

    *Plan is to complete a three week course of corvental and baytril and re-asses his condition with x-rays (under anaesthetic this time)

    And here we are now, 3 weeks after starting the Baytril and a few days shy of a 3 week course of corvental, waiting to be re-assessed on Wednesday this week.

    His breathing is no better, (but no worse either) we're still consistently around the 110-130 respiratory rate a minute mark all day, every day.
    He looks to be losing more weight and I can feel each rib now He is however still eating and drinking, and generally pretty lively.
    I fear the worst every time I get up in the morning, every time I come home from work, each time I walk up to the shed to check on him, and I even dreamt last night I had to give him mouth to mouth...Not feeling very positive today, and have no idea what is actually wrong with him.
    We were warned they had seen rabbits with this presentation before that didn't get better either. So yeah. Not great.

    Not sure what I'm after by posting this, unless anyone's got any ideas? Just a waiting game to see what the new x-rays will show I guess.
    Thanks for reading x

    Laura
    Last edited by Jasperello; 09-05-2018 at 04:59 PM.
    Millie 07/16-10/02/17
    Giving all my love to Zuccy, Jasper, Lola, Charlie and Poppy now

  2. #2
    Alpha Buck Leannean27's Avatar
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    Hi Laura, I’m sorry to hear Jasper is poorly. I cannot offer any advice but wish you all the best and hope they get to the root cause of it and he can start on the road to recovery. Hindsight is an annoying thing, I have often wished I’d listened to my instinct with other buns or at the very least questioned the vets more.

    Write down any questions you may have for the vet, don’t let them fob you off and if you feel overwhelmed when you do go back take a moment to think. Will be thinking of you both

  3. #3
    Wise Old Thumper joey&boo's Avatar
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    I'm sorry Jasper's health is such a concern. I haven't any experience or knowledge but couldn't just read & run. I hope his upcoming review can offer some more answers. Please let us know what happens

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasperello View Post
    Hi everyone,

    So my Jasper has been a poorly bunny for a month now, and we have been passed to Craig the exotic specialist at Chine House again. Unfortunately my only previous experience of Chine House was with Millie...which didn't end well. So naturally I was beside myself when I had to return there with Jasp, and cue me sobbing on the waiting room floor with my bunnies, by myself, having to hand them over to be admitted for 3 days. But I digress, so details:

    Jasper, M, outdoor, neutered, (bonded with Lola).
    *noticed he was breathing noticeably heavier and faster than the other 4, initially convinced myself I was over-reacting and he was fine, but should have trusted my instinct

    *Emergency app at vets on a Saturday, oxygen needed, X rays taken of 2 views (not under anaesthetic) which led to a query of pneumonia, enlarged heart, possible mass, heart failure etc. and a referral to Craig.

    *Immediately started antibiotics, option to admit to OOH vets or take home and monitor every hour in the night and more meds at 3am- I took him home.

    *Returned the next day on Sunday, no improvement.

    *Monday emergency appointment to see Craig. His take on the views of the x-ray was Jasper's lungs looked over inflated with trapped air. Ultrasound gave no extra clues.

    *Tuesday blood results came back but needed to be reviewed by Craig on Wednesday- a small indication in one aspect of the white cell count for infection, nothing major, and nothing unearthed of any real help. Meanwhile, talk of an MRI at another vets, but this was apparently going to cost over £1200 alone.

    *Wednesday no further suggestion of an MRI and a long day of waiting for a decision on next steps. So after a lot of protective 'mother bear' fussing by me, I make the drive down at 4.30 ready for a polite but firm 'I'm not leaving until someone tells me what's going on' discussion, when I get a phone call mid-journey to say I can take Jasp and Lo home!

    *Plan is to complete a three week course of corvental and baytril and re-asses his condition with x-rays (under anaesthetic this time)

    And here we are now, 3 weeks after starting the Baytril and a few days shy of a 3 week course of corvental, waiting to be re-assessed on Wednesday this week.

    His breathing is no better, (but no worse either) we're still consistently around the 110-130 respiratory rate a minute mark all day, every day.
    He looks to be losing more weight and I can feel each rib now He is however still eating and drinking, and generally pretty lively.
    I fear the worst every time I get up in the morning, every time I come home from work, each time I walk up to the shed to check on him, and I even dreamt last night I had to give him mouth to mouth...Not feeling very positive today, and have no idea what is actually wrong with him.
    We were warned they had seen rabbits with this presentation before that didn't get better either. So yeah. Not great.

    Not sure what I'm after by posting this, unless anyone's got any ideas? Just a waiting game to see what the new x-rays will show I guess.
    Thanks for reading x

    Laura
    I am sorry to hear of Jasper's problems. As I am sure your Vet has explained there are a few possible causes of the symptoms you describe and infection is one. Whilst a conscious chest Xray may give minimal useful information in order to obtain more helpful views sedation is needed. But of course this is always going to be somewhat more of a risk in a Rabbit with compromised respiration. That said, I have had several Rabbits with similar symptoms who did have to have a GA and they all came through the procedure. The Xray results revealed a variety of conditions in the effected Rabbits including pneumonia, cardiomyopathy and Thymoma. The Rabbits were all then put on appropriate treatment for their specific conditions. Whilst some of the conditions (cardiomyopathy and Thymoma) could not be cured the severity of symptoms were controlled on medication. This bought the effected Rabbits more time to live a good quality of life, albeit it a shorter life.

    I really think it is best to wait and see if Jasper starts to respond to the long course of abx, or maybe even ask the Vet if it may be worth changing the abx to an injectable penicillin rather than Baytril, or perhaps including it as well as oral Baytril. I say this as you mention that the blood results did give some indication of active infection being present. I have known that an injectable penicillin to be very effective for some Rabbits with a lower RTI.

    I could post some links to information about various possible causes of increased respiratory rate/effort, but I think that reading them may only serve to make you more anxious. I often fall into that trap myself, reading all the possibilities and immediately thinking 'worst case scenario'.

    I am sorry that you lost Millie at Chine House and I am sure that this has made revisiting the Practice additionally hard for you. I apologise for not recalling the circumstances of Millie's passing, but I am sure that the Vets are mindful of the situation now and how it may be impacting on your ability to fully trust them. It may help to be open about this with the Vet. Done in a polite and respectful way it should not cause offence. A caring and Professional Vet will fully understand how you feel and the Vet will not want any unspoken lack of trust to make things even harder for you now whilst dealing with poorly Jasper.

    Very best wishes for as good an outcome as possible for Jasper xx


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  5. #5
    Forum Buddy Zoobec's Avatar
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    I’m so sorry that Jasper is poorly, I’m sending lots of vibes and hugs. I’m sorry that having to go back to that vets was so difficult, it’s understandable, under the circumstances xx

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  6. #6
    Wise Old Thumper MightyMax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasperello View Post
    Hi everyone,

    So my Jasper has been a poorly bunny for a month now, and we have been passed to Craig the exotic specialist at Chine House again. Unfortunately my only previous experience of Chine House was with Millie...which didn't end well. So naturally I was beside myself when I had to return there with Jasp, and cue me sobbing on the waiting room floor with my bunnies, by myself, having to hand them over to be admitted for 3 days. But I digress, so details:

    Jasper, M, outdoor, neutered, (bonded with Lola).
    *noticed he was breathing noticeably heavier and faster than the other 4, initially convinced myself I was over-reacting and he was fine, but should have trusted my instinct

    *Emergency app at vets on a Saturday, oxygen needed, X rays taken of 2 views (not under anaesthetic) which led to a query of pneumonia, enlarged heart, possible mass, heart failure etc. and a referral to Craig.

    *Immediately started antibiotics, option to admit to OOH vets or take home and monitor every hour in the night and more meds at 3am- I took him home.

    *Returned the next day on Sunday, no improvement.

    *Monday emergency appointment to see Craig. His take on the views of the x-ray was Jasper's lungs looked over inflated with trapped air. Ultrasound gave no extra clues.

    *Tuesday blood results came back but needed to be reviewed by Craig on Wednesday- a small indication in one aspect of the white cell count for infection, nothing major, and nothing unearthed of any real help. Meanwhile, talk of an MRI at another vets, but this was apparently going to cost over £1200 alone.

    *Wednesday no further suggestion of an MRI and a long day of waiting for a decision on next steps. So after a lot of protective 'mother bear' fussing by me, I make the drive down at 4.30 ready for a polite but firm 'I'm not leaving until someone tells me what's going on' discussion, when I get a phone call mid-journey to say I can take Jasp and Lo home!

    *Plan is to complete a three week course of corvental and baytril and re-asses his condition with x-rays (under anaesthetic this time)

    And here we are now, 3 weeks after starting the Baytril and a few days shy of a 3 week course of corvental, waiting to be re-assessed on Wednesday this week.

    His breathing is no better, (but no worse either) we're still consistently around the 110-130 respiratory rate a minute mark all day, every day.
    He looks to be losing more weight and I can feel each rib now He is however still eating and drinking, and generally pretty lively.
    I fear the worst every time I get up in the morning, every time I come home from work, each time I walk up to the shed to check on him, and I even dreamt last night I had to give him mouth to mouth...Not feeling very positive today, and have no idea what is actually wrong with him.
    We were warned they had seen rabbits with this presentation before that didn't get better either. So yeah. Not great.

    Not sure what I'm after by posting this, unless anyone's got any ideas? Just a waiting game to see what the new x-rays will show I guess.
    Thanks for reading x

    Laura

    Hi Laura

    I'm really sorry to hear about Jasper. This is so worrying for you, and on top of all that there is returning to the surgery that treated Millie. It's never an easy thing to do, but as they are the most savvy vets around, I would have a word with Craig and explain the situation and how nervous it makes you following on from last time.

    So the course of antibiotics is finished and you are soon due for review. I guess Craig doesn't want to change the abx to perhaps injectable penicillin until he's assessed the situation? Remember a sedation for an X-ray isn't the same as a GA and doesn't post the same risks. I have had rabbits with both upper and lower respiratory issues who've had X-rays and been fine. It does provide a lot of info as to what's going on and will also show whether there's any enlargement of the heart.

    I am sending you loads of vibes and will be thinking of you both, whatever you decide to do

    Hugs xx
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  7. #7
    Warren Scout Jasperello's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leannean27 View Post
    Hi Laura, Iím sorry to hear Jasper is poorly. I cannot offer any advice but wish you all the best and hope they get to the root cause of it and he can start on the road to recovery. Hindsight is an annoying thing, I have often wished Iíd listened to my instinct with other buns or at the very least questioned the vets more.

    Write down any questions you may have for the vet, donít let them fob you off and if you feel overwhelmed when you do go back take a moment to think. Will be thinking of you both
    Thank you,
    and I'm normally the biggest fusspot going as well, always over-cautious and take them for the slightest thing! So on this occasion I talked myself into just thinking it was my anxiety and to calm down...won't be happening again! :)
    Millie 07/16-10/02/17
    Giving all my love to Zuccy, Jasper, Lola, Charlie and Poppy now

  8. #8
    Warren Scout Jasperello's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joey&boo View Post
    I'm sorry Jasper's health is such a concern. I haven't any experience or knowledge but couldn't just read & run. I hope his upcoming review can offer some more answers. Please let us know what happens
    Thank you for taking the time to reply :) x
    Millie 07/16-10/02/17
    Giving all my love to Zuccy, Jasper, Lola, Charlie and Poppy now

  9. #9
    Warren Scout Jasperello's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack's-Jane View Post
    I am sorry to hear of Jasper's problems. As I am sure your Vet has explained there are a few possible causes of the symptoms you describe and infection is one. Whilst a conscious chest Xray may give minimal useful information in order to obtain more helpful views sedation is needed. But of course this is always going to be somewhat more of a risk in a Rabbit with compromised respiration. That said, I have had several Rabbits with similar symptoms who did have to have a GA and they all came through the procedure. The Xray results revealed a variety of conditions in the effected Rabbits including pneumonia, cardiomyopathy and Thymoma. The Rabbits were all then put on appropriate treatment for their specific conditions. Whilst some of the conditions (cardiomyopathy and Thymoma) could not be cured the severity of symptoms were controlled on medication. This bought the effected Rabbits more time to live a good quality of life, albeit it a shorter life.

    I really think it is best to wait and see if Jasper starts to respond to the long course of abx, or maybe even ask the Vet if it may be worth changing the abx to an injectable penicillin rather than Baytril, or perhaps including it as well as oral Baytril. I say this as you mention that the blood results did give some indication of active infection being present. I have known that an injectable penicillin to be very effective for some Rabbits with a lower RTI.

    I could post some links to information about various possible causes of increased respiratory rate/effort, but I think that reading them may only serve to make you more anxious. I often fall into that trap myself, reading all the possibilities and immediately thinking 'worst case scenario'.

    I am sorry that you lost Millie at Chine House and I am sure that this has made revisiting the Practice additionally hard for you. I apologise for not recalling the circumstances of Millie's passing, but I am sure that the Vets are mindful of the situation now and how it may be impacting on your ability to fully trust them. It may help to be open about this with the Vet. Done in a polite and respectful way it should not cause offence. A caring and Professional Vet will fully understand how you feel and the Vet will not want any unspoken lack of trust to make things even harder for you now whilst dealing with poorly Jasper.

    Very best wishes for as good an outcome as possible for Jasper xx
    Thank you for the reassurance Jane x

    While he was admitted he was having Depocillin injections as well as the Baytril but nothing was arranged or said about continuing this when we came home. In hindsight surely it would seem a bit pointless to just do the Depocillin for the 3 days he was admitted, that's not a long enough course surely? Bit late now for me to wonder that anyway.

    Yes, thank you I'm terrible for it too, trying so hard to resist researching at the minute until I get a more definitive diagnosis!

    As for my baby girl, she had some unexplained neurological symptoms and then got a bad abscess which an idiot vet (not Craig or Chine House, the supposed rabbit-savvy vet at my 'home' vets) prescribed Clindamycin for and it was too late before I found out that's a massive no-no and she'd already had a dose or two and possibly licked the stuff... I'll never no If that's what did it for her or not, but a week later I came home from work one day to find her in a very poorly state with diarrhoea and to cut the story short, she didn't make it through the night. So my last visit to Chine House had been to collect my Millie and bring her home. This sudden and unexpected return there left me distraught, even though they didn't actually cause the problem, it was just too late to save my precious girl. Thank you for the thoughtful advice, I did try to explain through my tears why I was so emotional but will definitely try again to explain my uneasiness over leaving Jasper there.

    Laura x
    Millie 07/16-10/02/17
    Giving all my love to Zuccy, Jasper, Lola, Charlie and Poppy now

  10. #10
    Warren Scout Jasperello's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoobec View Post
    I’m so sorry that Jasper is poorly, I’m sending lots of vibes and hugs. I’m sorry that having to go back to that vets was so difficult, it’s understandable, under the circumstances xx
    Thank you for the love. I don't suppose the hurt ever really fully goes away does it? Was the first loss I'd gone through and I tried so hard to save her, she wasn't even 1 year old. My Jasper has just turned 3, and I'm really hoping this has a better ending than last time x
    Millie 07/16-10/02/17
    Giving all my love to Zuccy, Jasper, Lola, Charlie and Poppy now

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