Stasis prone bunnies

[loobers25]

Not silly at all. Bless you. It's rarely used for babies these days.
Gripe water is the very old fashioned way to treat babies with painful "wind"/ infantile colick, if they haven't been "burped" properly or take in too much air when they feed.
It's basically a tea made from dill seeds. We syringe feed it into rabbits like other liquid meds.

As I understand it, the gas in rabbit bloat has a different cause. Because the GI tract is moving slowly the food starts to ferment. (If you've ever used yeast, it's more like the froth we get when we activate dried yeast)

Please can someone help us with the dose for rabbits? (I'm having a senior moment!!)

Do you use gripe water along side Infacol? Xx

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[thumps_]

I know of some people who have used both together a few mins apart.

I found an old video on You tube of 3-4 secs of a cotton tail rabbit running in slow motion. (Turn the sound off!!! start at 1:30.) I find the change in their shape as they run amazing, almost like a bellows action on the abdominal contents
If Baily has a lot of Rex in him & thin fur on his feet, you may have problems with flooring & a reason for him to stay on the bed. Most Rex rabbits wear down the fur on their feet very easily (few guard hairs) & need to be kept on a special soft deep surface to prevent hock sores (pressure sores on the heels). You may have to put down some olf double duvets for him to play on. (Eccentric maybe but cheaper than stable matting)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iic2IJovJ38

[MightyMax]

Those are interesting points Greengage. I think that the rise in blood sugar mainly applies to complete obstruction which may not be seen on plain XR & is a result of very severe pain. It is truely massive (levels over 16.0 are needed before the diagnosis of obstruction is supported. Lower levels especially just over the threshold are usually ignored = we've got a stressed out rabbit.
I come to some similar conclusions but for different reasons. Once froth is changed to a pocket of gas, the pocket can work it's way through the tiniest crack & doesn't need forward propulsion. (It's the froth which can't move & is holding thngs up.) It's not really a burping problem as when changed to gas it rushes down to the bottom end easily.
However as I see it, all depends on how high up in the gut the froth is. The infacol has to get to the right place & needs some gut motility to do so.
If the gas is in the caecum I don't think infacol can get there to do any good.

Us oldies started with no info at all!!! We divided stasis prone rabbits into "top end buns"who responded best to Maxolon when in stasis & "bottom end buns" who did best on Ranitidine. I would expect the "top end buns" to have the best chance of a response to Infacol.
All that being said I agree about the saccharine (no good for humans either!) Unfortunately all liquid meds primarily marketed for humans are heavily sweetened.

We're in a lot of agreement. I hope I'm not being contentious or "nit picking" You have raised some good points.

Perhaps it boils down to a personal decision. If it works for your rabbit & averts a very serious condition ..... RWA isn't strongly against it. I'd interpret the warning, more as not to be used as completely harmless but with the same degree of thought as any other meds.

Thank you for the great compliment. I'm continuing to learn all the time. I couldn't agree more about observation & learning the idiosynchracies of each rabbit.
TBH I'm almost completely taught by my rabbits. Why are they doing that ?- look for repeating patterns & try to make sense of it from their viewpoint.

I agree - if it works, then continue to use it, as it could in some instances perhaps save a rabbit's life.

Frances Harcourt Brown, retired rabbit vet, was not strongly against it either, and was quite happy for people to use it whether it did any good or not.


Greengage - I would be very interested to see a link to the study where artificial sweeteners have been linked to a rise in blood glucose levels

[thumps_]

I agree - if it works, then continue to use it, as it could in some instances perhaps save a rabbit's life.

Frances Harcourt Brown, retired rabbit vet, was not strongly against it either, and was quite happy for people to use it whether it did any good or not.


Greengage - I would be very interested to see a link to the study where artificial sweeteners have been linked to a rise in blood glucose levels

Thank you MM I've looked up the metabolism of saccharine. It is a synthetic chemical not found in nature. At no point in its metabolism in man or rat is it converted to glucose or a substance similar to glucose.
Therefore IMO it cannot be responsible for any rise in glucose levels. (I have always associated this rise, with the effect of natural cortisol release by stress either physiological or pain.)

Several years ago it was said that any episode of stasis destabilised the intestinal micro organisms, irrespective of medication, for up to 6 weeks, but do not know the original source.

I would also like to see the study which links artificial sweeteners to blood glucose.

[Jack's-Jane]

http://thatsugarfilm.com/blog/2017/1...t-blood-sugar/

https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/thr...-levels.90666/

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...-a7946151.html

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...study-suggests

[MightyMax]

Thank you MM I've looked up the metabolism of saccharine. It is a synthetic chemical not found in nature. At no point in its metabolism in man or rat is it converted to glucose or a substance similar to glucose.
Therefore IMO it cannot be responsible for any rise in glucose levels. (I have always associated this rise, with the effect of natural cortisol release by stress either physiological or pain.)

Several years ago it was said that any episode of stasis destabilised the intestinal micro organisms, irrespective of medication, for up to 6 weeks, but do not know the original source.

I would also like to see the study which links artificial sweeteners to blood glucose.

Yes this is exactly what I thought and thank you for confirming it

Stress causes a rise in blood glucose levels, for sure. It often muddies the waters in some cases of stasis rabbits too!


Hopefully Greengage will come back to us with the study

[zoe2112]

Don't be sorry Navigating around a new forum can be confusing for a while.

More importantly how is Freddie today? I think I would certainly get a vet's opinion about his drinking as that does seem excesive and if he has a UTI brewing, it could explain his reluctance to eat.

Freddie is doing really well, he’s bouncing around like nothing has happened. He’s been to the vets today and it turns out they didn’t do his X-rays when he went in last time as they wanted the results from his blood tests to check he was safe to go under GA so now he is having his X-ray on Thursday. I’ll start a new thread when I get results. Thanks for your help folks!


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[thumps_]

http://thatsugarfilm.com/blog/2017/1...t-blood-sugar/

https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/thr...-levels.90666/

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...-a7946151.html

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...study-suggests

Thank you for these links JJ
I was aware of these possible effects of a long term high dose of saccharin in humans.
I would like to make the following points from the press & forum articles.
Saccharin is thought to
a) impact on glucose absorption from the diet.
b) associated with low insuklin levels
c) associated with low GPI
Other articles refer to a possible role in the developement of type 2 diabetes.

The point I would like to make is that the normal modern human diet has high levels of sucrose/ corn syrup = glucose + fructose which are seperated into the component parts by ptyalin in saliva. The fructose component has its own adverse effects. Artificial sweeteners are extensively used in "Diet" fizzy drinks & as an alternative for diabetics.
Rabbit diet is totally different & very low in sugars
Rabbits in stasis have either no food intake or a very low food intake.

Infacol is being given for a very short time, & in low dose.
There are 2 problems to explain in stasis rabbits.
a) How can saccharin be possibly absorbed from a slow GI tract in time to impact on the metabolic system in a complex way?
b) Why do rabbits in stasis who have had no drugs what so ever, routinely have blood glucose levels above the norm?

Humans with very painful conditions eg obstructed GI tract often have raised glucose levels which return to normal when the underlying condition is treated, & on subsequent Ix are not prediabetic. This is even more apparent in people with severe multiple injuries where blood glucose levels may even reach 20.00. In both cases the cause is activation of the cortisol system from physiological & pain stress.

Rabbit cortisol system activates far more readily than the human system, & can not only cause high blood glucose levels, but also cause severe slow down of the GI tract.
I think that we would agree that one of the commonest causes of stasis in rabbits is an underlying painful condition, & indeed we owe much to your work several years ago, advocating for pain relief in rabbits in stasis. This had a marked effect on improving recovery rates at the time.

I am grateful for the information but IMO it refers to a different situation from rabbits in stasis. The information does not show us the original research done, which is essential to appraise the conclusions.
Indeed all the paediatric meds I can think of, including ABx contain artificial sweeteners. I do not think that these would be considered suspect although given more frequently & for a longer period than infacol.

Bloat is a life threatening condition for rabbits & necessitates very rapid treatment indeed. Time to get to the vet has to be taken into consideration.
For all these reasons, I personally would not withold infacol in this situation.
(I once discussed using activated charcoal to absorb the gas for bloat with gastric distention with Marie Kubiac. She said that we couldn't get enough into the rabbit to work. That is the only alternative I know of for this situation)

[loobers25]

Freddie is doing really well, he’s bouncing around like nothing has happened. He’s been to the vets today and it turns out they didn’t do his X-rays when he went in last time as they wanted the results from his blood tests to check he was safe to go under GA so now he is having his X-ray on Thursday. I’ll start a new thread when I get results. Thanks for your help folks!


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We been to the vets too today, hopefully an xray will give you some long awaited answers! Xx

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[loobers25]

I was wondering if metacam has a artifical sweeter because of the sweet taste?

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