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Slow Bonding Method - Advice Please

EXCITING UPDATE

Caramel and Mr Muffles had their first physical meet and greet! We’d been to see the vet with Mr Muffles today and the bonding process was one of the many things we discussed. She recommended letting Caramel into Mr Muffles’ room rather than neutral territory as she felt that this would be less stressful for Caramel with her heart condition.

So, that’s what we did and it went very well! Mr Muffles, bless him, doesn’t seem to have territorial instincts, I don’t think he even knows it’s a thing, so he wasn’t in the slightest bit bothered about Caramel having a good look around.

To be honest I don’t think Mr Muffles really knows what to make of Caramel at all. Occasionally they came face to face, there was a bit of chattering, but then they went their separate ways and a couple of times Caramel had to squish passed Mr Muffles in a tunnel and he just didn’t react at all.

So, so far, so good. We’ll progress slowly and see how we go.

With regards to the vet visit, Mr Muffles does have signs of spurs regrowing on his teeth, so we’ve got another check up in a few weeks and he may need an op to get that sorted. If I can get him munching on his hay as much as he should, fingers crossed, that will solve the problem, as the most likely cause would be the horrendous diet, and occasional lack of any food, that he suffered before the RSPCA got him. It could also be a genetic tendency, but only time will tell if a good diet does the trick.

He is also about 1/2 kg under weight :( so I will continue to feed him little and often to try to gradually get his weight up.

Otherwise he’s doing okay. Yesterday evening, Mr Muffles and I had the most wonderful snuggles, he leant right into my leg and rested his chin on my knee. Just so precious. And Caramel had a funny five, racing around her room like an athletic pro, you would never know she has a heart condition. She seems to be doing really well accepting Mr Muffles into her domain. I really hope it all continues this positively.
 
Natalie said:
EXCITING UPDATE

Caramel and Mr Muffles had their first physical meet and greet! We’d been to see the vet with Mr Muffles today and the bonding process was one of the many things we discussed. She recommended letting Caramel into Mr Muffles’ room rather than neutral territory as she felt that this would be less stressful for Caramel with her heart condition.

So, that’s what we did and it went very well! Mr Muffles, bless him, doesn’t seem to have territorial instincts, I don’t think he even knows it’s a thing, so he wasn’t in the slightest bit bothered about Caramel having a good look around.

To be honest I don’t think Mr Muffles really knows what to make of Caramel at all. Occasionally they came face to face, there was a bit of chattering, but then they went their separate ways and a couple of times Caramel had to squish passed Mr Muffles in a tunnel and he just didn’t react at all.

So, so far, so good. We’ll progress slowly and see how we go.

With regards to the vet visit, Mr Muffles does have signs of spurs regrowing on his teeth, so we’ve got another check up in a few weeks and he may need an op to get that sorted. If I can get him munching on his hay as much as he should, fingers crossed, that will solve the problem, as the most likely cause would be the horrendous diet, and occasional lack of any food, that he suffered before the RSPCA got him. It could also be a genetic tendency, but only time will tell if a good diet does the trick.

He is also about 1/2 kg under weight :( so I will continue use to feed little and often to try to gradually get his weight up.

Otherwise he’s doing okay. Yesterday evening, Mr Muffles and I had the most wonderful snuggles, he leant right into my leg and rested his chin on my knee. Just so precious. And Caramel had a funny five, racing around her room like an athletic pro, you would never know she has a heart condition. She seems to be doing really well accepting Mr Muffles into her domain. I really hope it all continues this positively.
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I love this - it's beginning to sound really really good. and Mr Muffles has landed on his feet and will marvel at the new life before him. Well done you Natalie, because you made it all happen :)
 
What a lovely update! I think Caramel would have attacked Mr Muffles if she didn't like him being there so it sounds like they are going to get along. It will be so lovely for them both! :love::love:
 
Thanks all for your words of encouragement.

They've had a couple more get togethers. On one of the occasions they acknowledged each other a lot more and were rubbing faces and chattering. But then it got a bit more humpy and, whilst I suspect a person experienced in rabbit bonding would have allowed the situation to play out for longer, as it wasn't aggressive or anything, I felt unsure about how things would develop and decided to pick Mr Muffles up :roll:

I probably did the wrong thing, but with Caramel's heart condition to consider and with Mr Muffles being so incredibly new to meeting another rabbit and not being 100% fit, and especially with my complete inexperience and proneness to anxiety, I just decided to stop the encounter.

I kept Mr Muffles in my arms for a bit and Caramel happily carried on pottering about for a while, and then when she was ready I opened the gate and she just hopped merrily back to her room. Both bunnies seemed absolutely fine and they've had another meet and greet since, which went very smoothly.

So, slowly but surely, we're getting there I think.

Oh, by the way, if anyone has got any suggestions on how to encourage Mr Muffles to munch more on hay, I'd love to hear some ideas. One of the mid morning snacks I gave him today was hay with grated carrot mixed in it - my cunning plan being that he'd end up munching on the hay whilst trying to get all the carrot. However, to be honest, I think he managed to pick out all the carrot very adeptly :lol: although I'm sure he must have had some hay :p

I have to be careful about cutting down too much on the pellets as he is so underweight, so it's a bit of a balancing act, encouraging him to munch more hay, whilst still giving him enough pellets that he doesn't lose any more weight. He gets plenty of greens as well, and has access to fresh hay 24/7. He also has a constant supply of dried leaves such as blackcurrant leaves, plantain, dandelion and nettle and readigrass, so he does munch on that too.
 
Natalie said:
Thanks all for your words of encouragement.

They've had a couple more get togethers. On one of the occasions they acknowledged each other a lot more and were rubbing faces and chattering. But then it got a bit more humpy and, whilst I suspect a person experienced in rabbit bonding would have allowed the situation to play out for longer, as it wasn't aggressive or anything, I felt unsure about how things would develop and decided to pick Mr Muffles up :roll:

I probably did the wrong thing, but with Caramel's heart condition to consider and with Mr Muffles being so incredibly new to meeting another rabbit and not being 100% fit, and especially with my complete inexperience and proneness to anxiety, I just decided to stop the encounter.

I kept Mr Muffles in my arms for a bit and Caramel happily carried on pottering about for a while, and then when she was ready I opened the gate and she just hopped merrily back to her room. Both bunnies seemed absolutely fine and they've had another meet and greet since, which went very smoothly.

So, slowly but surely, we're getting there I think.

Oh, by the way, if anyone has got any suggestions on how to encourage Mr Muffles to munch more on hay, I'd love to hear some ideas. One of the mid morning snacks I gave him today was hay with grated carrot mixed in it - my cunning plan being that he'd end up munching on the hay whilst trying to get all the carrot. However, to be honest, I think he managed to pick out all the carrot very adeptly :lol: although I'm sure he must have had some hay :p

I have to be careful about cutting down too much on the pellets as he is so underweight, so it's a bit of a balancing act, encouraging him to munch more hay, whilst still giving him enough pellets that he doesn't lose any more weight. He gets plenty of greens as well, and has access to fresh hay 24/7. He also has a constant supply of dried leaves such as blackcurrant leaves, plantain, dandelion and nettle and readigrass, so he does munch on that too.
Click to expand...

When you say "humpy" which bun was humping? Have you considered giving Mr Muffles a couple of FibaFirst sticks every day as they are high in fibre and will help to keep his teeth down. I am afraid there is no sure way to get a rabbit to eat hay, especially an older rabbit which may not have had any hay before. It would be easier if he was overweight of course. The best way with your two is if he sees Caramel eating the hay and he gets the hint.
 
Ahhh, I find the humping quite distressing - Joey was relentless !
Hay - I can understand your anxiety to get him eating lots, esp given he has spurs you're keeping an eye on. Grass is just as good (when the snow defrosts). Readigrass might be more palatable. One of my bunnies has become a dental bun recently & she seems to be able to only eat one type of hay. Whats he tried so far? They have a lovely diet your rabbits
 
tonibun said:
When you say "humpy" which bun was humping? Have you considered giving Mr Muffles a couple of FibaFirst sticks every day as they are high in fibre and will help to keep his teeth down. I am afraid there is no sure way to get a rabbit to eat hay, especially an older rabbit which may not have had any hay before. It would be easier if he was overweight of course. The best way with your two is if he sees Caramel eating the hay and he gets the hint.
Click to expand...

If I remember correctly, they both sort of rubbed heads and necks together with chattering, and then it was Mr Muffles who clambered onto Caramel's head - I think.

We've since had two more meets, one was a very short together time when they just hopped about individually and didn't really interact, and the one just now was mostly individually hopping about but when they did acknowledge each other, it was Mr Muffles who seemed the dominant one and Caramel would scarper. We thought that Caramel might be stressing about the situation so we got her to hop back to her room and concluded that particular meet and greet.

Maybe we're trying too much too soon, after all, Mr Muffles has never had a bunny companion before so it might not be surprising if he behaves like an only child who doesn't know how to share and is, maybe, frightened of things being taken away from him. Caramel, on the other hand, I would say, seems really keen to have a companion, she didn't even seem bothered when Mr Muffles had a tiny wander into her room. So at the moment she seems more ready for friendship than he does. Or that's how I'm reading it, but I could of course be completely wrong.
 
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joey&boo said:
Ahhh, I find the humping quite distressing - Joey was relentless !
Hay - I can understand your anxiety to get him eating lots, esp given he has spurs you're keeping an eye on. Grass is just as good (when the snow defrosts). Readigrass might be more palatable. One of my bunnies has become a dental bun recently & she seems to be able to only eat one type of hay. Whats he tried so far? They have a lovely diet your rabbits
Click to expand...

At the moment he has Timothy Hay from the Timothy Hay Company, so really nice and fresh and green, that's in his litter tray and stuffed into various toys. He has a bowl of readigrass, that unfortunately he doesn't seem interested in. He has The Hay Experts dried Dandelions, Plantain, Blackcurrant Leaves and Nettle available 24/7, he quite enjoys munching that. He has a bowl of greens 3 x per day (he doesn't like spinach :lol: ), and he has a couple of Roll and Nest Balls to munch on, he's quite enjoyed pulling everything out of those, oh and various chew mats and a chew basket made of water hyacinth. He has 3+ eggcups of Burgess Adult Excel Pellets per day as well. Plus the odd treat of a small bit of carrot or apple.

He's eating and pooping very well, just doesn't munch on hay as much as I would like him too, especially as he has spurs developing.

With the slight dominant behaviour of Mr Muffles over Caramel, and it has been very little really, I think my lack of experience and my considerable concern about Caramel's heart condition, make that very difficult for me to allow to play out. It's very important she doesn't get over stressed, so I'd rather just let the bonding take a long time, than rush it and cause Caramel problems. At the moment, I think I'm doing too much too soon. Caramel so often seems to want to get through the gate to Mr Muffles' room that I can't resist the temptation to let them have a few moments together, but maybe Mr Muffles just isn't ready yet.
 
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Natalie said:
Thanks all for your words of encouragement.

They've had a couple more get togethers. On one of the occasions they acknowledged each other a lot more and were rubbing faces and chattering. But then it got a bit more humpy and, whilst I suspect a person experienced in rabbit bonding would have allowed the situation to play out for longer, as it wasn't aggressive or anything, I felt unsure about how things would develop and decided to pick Mr Muffles up :roll:

I probably did the wrong thing, but with Caramel's heart condition to consider and with Mr Muffles being so incredibly new to meeting another rabbit and not being 100% fit, and especially with my complete inexperience and proneness to anxiety, I just decided to stop the encounter.

I kept Mr Muffles in my arms for a bit and Caramel happily carried on pottering about for a while, and then when she was ready I opened the gate and she just hopped merrily back to her room. Both bunnies seemed absolutely fine and they've had another meet and greet since, which went very smoothly.

So, slowly but surely, we're getting there I think.

Oh, by the way, if anyone has got any suggestions on how to encourage Mr Muffles to munch more on hay, I'd love to hear some ideas. One of the mid morning snacks I gave him today was hay with grated carrot mixed in it - my cunning plan being that he'd end up munching on the hay whilst trying to get all the carrot. However, to be honest, I think he managed to pick out all the carrot very adeptly :lol: although I'm sure he must have had some hay :p

I have to be careful about cutting down too much on the pellets as he is so underweight, so it's a bit of a balancing act, encouraging him to munch more hay, whilst still giving him enough pellets that he doesn't lose any more weight. He gets plenty of greens as well, and has access to fresh hay 24/7. He also has a constant supply of dried leaves such as blackcurrant leaves, plantain, dandelion and nettle and readigrass, so he does munch on that too.
Click to expand...


Sometimes with the best will in the world, a dental rabbit just *cannot* eat hay.

One test I usually perform is to see whether a rabbit can eat readigrass. If they can eat that easily then the chances are good that their teeth are good enough to eat hay also. You can try different hays, and perhaps chop them up a bit to make the lengths shorter. Dental buns may prefer a softer hay, but not always.

I have also done quite a bit of research into fibafirst sticks. It seems that on the whole they are also good for rabbits who can't eat hay, and they are usually delicious to a rabbit :) I have a rabbit who just cannot eat hay because of the state of the teeth, so the diet is adapted and fibafirst forms a part of that.

Good luck Natalie. Such lucky buns xx
 
MightyMax said:
Sometimes with the best will in the world, a dental rabbit just *cannot* eat hay.

One test I usually perform is to see whether a rabbit can eat readigrass. If they can eat that easily then the chances are good that their teeth are good enough to eat hay also. You can try different hays, and perhaps chop them up a bit to make the lengths shorter. Dental buns may prefer a softer hay, but not always.

I have also done quite a bit of research into fibafirst sticks. It seems that on the whole they are also good for rabbits who can't eat hay, and they are usually delicious to a rabbit :) I have a rabbit who just cannot eat hay because of the state of the teeth, so the diet is adapted and fibafirst forms a part of that.

Good luck Natalie. Such lucky buns xx
Click to expand...

Thanks MM, I will try the fibafirst sticks again, I had them before, for Caramel, and I think I was troubled by one of the ingredients, plus Caramel didn't seem interested in them, so I gave up on them, but I'll give them another go for Mr Muffles. I have readigrass, but he's not interested in that, which other hays would be good ones to try and where might I get them from? I think The Timothy Hay Co do an Oat Hay as well, would that be any good? I'm willing to try anything for him :)
 
Natalie said:
Thanks MM, I will try the fibafirst sticks again, I had them before, for Caramel, and I think I was troubled by one of the ingredients, plus Caramel didn't seem interested in them, so I gave up on them, but I'll give them another go for Mr Muffles. I have readigrass, but he's not interested in that, which other hays would be good ones to try and where might I get them from? I think The Timothy Hay Co do an Oat Hay as well, would that be any good? I'm willing to try anything for him :)
Click to expand...


If he's not interested in readigrass, which is usually much more tasty than hay to rabbits, then my guess may be that his dentition is a bit off.

I should find a company that will do you a selection of hays, such as the Hay Experts, and see if he will eat any of them.

Also, have a look at how he manages the fibafirst sticks - ie does he struggle to eat them? Is he slow to chew?


I would also provide a pile of forage, including some fresh picked grass in there. I do this every day for all my rabbits. If he eats it all up (and cow parsley is a fave here, though some owners struggle to identify it so take care) then grass is a way forward.

However, just because a rabbit can eat fresh grass, will not mean he is able to chew up hay/readigrass. But grass and fibafirst sticks have a lot going for them :)
 
MightyMax said:
If he's not interested in readigrass, which is usually much more tasty than hay to rabbits, then my guess may be that his dentition is a bit off.

I should find a company that will do you a selection of hays, such as the Hay Experts, and see if he will eat any of them.

Also, have a look at how he manages the fibafirst sticks - ie does he struggle to eat them? Is he slow to chew?
Click to expand...

If it's any help, he munches his pellets like a real pro, gets those eaten at double quick pace! He chews all his veg really well too. He doesn't chew on toys like Caramel does, she can totally annihilate water hyacinth chews, but Mr Muffles hasn't chewed any of his at all.

I'll get on The Hay Experts site now and order some stuff :)
 
My bunnies are coming to yours for tea, they don't care that they are not invited.

From your earlier post I was impressed with your vet discussing bonding in depth with you - an excellent resource for you given Caramels heart condition . i think I found joeys humpiness more stressful than the girls. For some rabbit bonds I think the humpy stage is inevitable whichever bonding style you choose though I'm happy to be corrected.

Isn't it lovely that they both seem to want this though, Mr Muffles is behaving quite normally i'd say. Humping & no aggression or chasing is good.
 
joey&boo said:
My bunnies are coming to yours for tea, they don't care that they are not invited.

From your earlier post I was impressed with your vet discussing bonding in depth with you - an excellent resource for you given Caramels heart condition . i think I found joeys humpiness more stressful than the girls. For some rabbit bonds I think the humpy stage is inevitable whichever bonding style you choose though I'm happy to be corrected.

Isn't it lovely that they both seem to want this though, Mr Muffles is behaving quite normally i'd say. Humping & no aggression or chasing is good.
Click to expand...

Awww what a lovely idea - bunny play dates :)

With regards to the humping and scarpering, I think hubby and I are just too quick to panic, we even stand by with a water spray bottle, just in case things get out of hand - I read about the spray bottle idea as a means of separating feuding bunnies in one of the articles I read on bonding, we haven't used it yet though - and I probably need someone standing by me and reminding me to breath :lol:

Yes, our vet is lovely, we haven't really discussed bonding in depth I wouldn't say, but if I ask specific questions, she's always more than happy to help out. I had thought she had the exotic pets license thing, but actually she, and several of the vet nurses at that particular branch, just have a particular interest in bunnies. She's actually specialising in heart conditions, so she is always very mindful of how Caramel will deal with situations.
 
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