Drooling/Wet chin and chest post dental (spurs)? - U/D Getting better

Glad to read that he has started to pick up - such a worry.

Today's news is less great...
He's just been to the vet and apparently the spurs are just starting up again on the left That seems very quick but I'm guessing it's because he's not had as much hay as he should over the past few days.
Maybe he'll correct them on his own now he's getting back to normal eating but it's leaving me extremely worried now.
My normal vet is back on the 8th and I'm seeing her for a couple of the others with their vaccinations, so hopefully I'll be able to talk about it with her then if she has time.
As for Pixel at the moment, he's got to go back again on Wednesday. He's doing okay in himself, eating etc and he's quite bright. He was shaking a bit in the waiting room but had a look around when he saw the vet and then sat up and cleaned his little face
But it's all so scary..

MightyMax said:

I can't remember - was it you who asked whether a rabbit has to be sedated for an X-Ray?

Answer is .. usually yes, unless the rabbit is very poorly and not moving.

However, Frances Harcourt Brown used, when she was in practice, a controversial technique called: Immobility response or ‘tonic immobility’
(I think it's as controversial as 'conscious dentals' )

How to induce a relaxed immobility response
In docile pet rabbits, an immobility response can be induced by cradling the rabbit like a baby before slowly and gently placing it on its back. Making a ‘shushing’ noise seems to help. This is not how a predator would behave with them. It is very important that the rabbit is not grabbed or restrained tightly. If the rabbit feels threatened, it is likely to struggle and try to escape. If it is handled gently, the rabbit is likely to remain calm and still before entering a relaxed trance like state. Once it is immobile, the rabbit will remain in the same position, often without restraint, unless it is stimulated by sudden noise or movement. It will recover from the experience with no sign of distress once it is turned over into a normal sitting position. Rabbits can be medicated or even fed in this position, which does not indicate a state of terror. Turning a rabbit on its back is very useful for examination of the hocks, perineum and incisors. Matted or soiled fur can be removed. Ultrasound examination on the abdominal organs can take place. Claws can be clipped and radiographs taken without the need for sedation.

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Yes, I did ask a little while ago Only Lunar has ever had an x-ray and I wasn't able to ask anything first except to give consent (she'd been rushed to VetNow after choking on a pellet. Nearly lost her that day, we started to lose her while on the phone but think my Mum managed to dislodge the pellet just in time) As I recall it was a light sedation rather than a full GA? Maybe not so bad, though I'm just thinking that maybe it would be better while he's already under. Then again it means him being under longer so I don't know. I'll ask my vet closer to the time, though we may have moved by then One of the hardest things about moving is knowing we'll have to change vet because I really trust her with the buns.
I didn't know Frances Harcourt Brown used tonic immpobility. That's interesting to know as I know she knows her stuff. However speaking personally it's not something I would personally ever like to do to a rabbit unless it was absolutely necessary and there were no other option for whatever reason - especially after having read the RWAF's page on it a while ago. Just my personal opinion though

~ILoveMyBunny~ said:

Today's news is less great...
He's just been to the vet and apparently the spurs are just starting up again on the left That seems very quick but I'm guessing it's because he's not had as much hay as he should over the past few days.
Maybe he'll correct them on his own now he's getting back to normal eating but it's leaving me extremely worried now.
My normal vet is back on the 8th and I'm seeing her for a couple of the others with their vaccinations, so hopefully I'll be able to talk about it with her then if she has time.
As for Pixel at the moment, he's got to go back again on Wednesday. He's doing okay in himself, eating etc and he's quite bright. He was shaking a bit in the waiting room but had a look around when he saw the vet and then sat up and cleaned his little face
But it's all so scary..


Yes, I did ask a little while ago Only Lunar has ever had an x-ray and I wasn't able to ask anything first except to give consent (she'd been rushed to VetNow after choking on a pellet. Nearly lost her that day, we started to lose her while on the phone but think my Mum managed to dislodge the pellet just in time) As I recall it was a light sedation rather than a full GA? Maybe not so bad, though I'm just thinking that maybe it would be better while he's already under. Then again it means him being under longer so I don't know. I'll ask my vet closer to the time, though we may have moved by then One of the hardest things about moving is knowing we'll have to change vet because I really trust her with the buns.
I didn't know Frances Harcourt Brown used tonic immpobility. That's interesting to know as I know she knows her stuff. However speaking personally it's not something I would personally ever like to do to a rabbit unless it was absolutely necessary and there were no other option for whatever reason - especially after having read the RWAF's page on it a while ago. Just my personal opinion though

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Yes it's very much a matter of what you feel is right, isn't it?

I was having a long conversation on one of the (many!) vet visits over the last two weeks, with the specialist treating my bun, and there is controversy over tonic immobility as there is with conscious dentals. I have been attacked (seriously) for suggesting they might be an option :shock:

My thoughts are, if a rabbit would probably die as a result of an anaesthetic then I would consider options that didn't require GA. I realise some people have said they would prefer their rabbit to die rather than conscious dentals, but I feel everything is worth at least consideration.

I am sorry that Pixel still is in need of treatment. If spurs have begun, it's unlikely that hay will wear them down, as they will already be in their 'wonky' position and not meet well enough to grind. But there's always hope ...

You have lot to think about right now. I hope you can give your brain a little time off for recuperation over the holiday period. I am hoping to stop stressing for a few hours here and there :lol:

My rabbits have always started shaking in the waiting room, so much so that you could see the carrier wobbling

I'm sorry that the news about Pixel is not great. It does seem very quick for spurs to develop again. What's been his history of dentals thus far? I know the daphnephoebe has avoided her rabbit having to have frequent dentals by not feeding any pellets, but I think you've said that he prefers hay anyway.

Sending him lots of vibes and I hope that you can have a good discussion with your vet about a sensible way forward.

MightyMax said:

Yes it's very much a matter of what you feel is right, isn't it?

I was having a long conversation on one of the (many!) vet visits over the last two weeks, with the specialist treating my bun, and there is controversy over tonic immobility as there is with conscious dentals. I have been attacked (seriously) for suggesting they might be an option :shock:

My thoughts are, if a rabbit would probably die as a result of an anaesthetic then I would consider options that didn't require GA. I realise some people have said they would prefer their rabbit to die rather than conscious dentals, but I feel everything is worth at least consideration.

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I think you have to take each rabbit on a case-by-case basis. What's right for one isn't necessarily right for another.
I do certainly understand the controversy regarding conscious dentals and it's not something I would ever want to have to do, but if it was a life or death thing I might consider it. I don't really know enough about them to know for certain at this stage. But I know if my rabbits life was under threat I'd want to explore all options before making a decision.
It's never easy to know what to do. If we could only ask them what they wanted it would be so much simpler. But I think each person knows their own rabbit best and they're the ones best equipped to make the decision as to what they think their rabbit would want, as long as they have tried their best to obtain all the facts first and they are putting their rabbit first in the decision making.
It's so difficult to know what to do for the best for them There's never an easy answer.

Omi said:

It does seem very quick for spurs to develop again. What's been his history of dentals thus far? I know the daphnephoebe has avoided her rabbit having to have frequent dentals by not feeding any pellets, but I think you've said that he prefers hay anyway.

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I know It was only done on tuesday! He's 2yrs 8 months now and had his first dental in May this year. This was his second one with app a 7 month gap.
He's not got a typical nethie shaped nose (or ears - I'm sure he's a cross. Think he's a bit bigger than a nethie too, he weighs 1.5kg at the moment)
I'll upload some pictures in a minute as I took some of him today. Might give a better idea of his head shape
I'd certainly have no problem removing the pellet part of his diet as I don't think he needs it. Normally all he has is one fibafirst per day and to be honest he went off of them before his first dental and never really got back into them. I only bought the SS pellets as treats - none of them have them as a normal pellet.
Willow spent most of her life without pellets and she was a very healthy girl. I found they upset her and she was so much better removing them entirely. I only put her back on them for the last 6 months or so as she was having trouble maintaining weight.

I'll go see if I can get those pictures...

I'll start with the cutest
The top one is my favourite

~ILoveMyBunny~ said:

I'll start with the cutest
The top one is my favourite

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What a cute little fella

Jack's-Jane said:

What a cute little fella

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He really is
Always steals everyone's heart :lol:

Edit: Oh, something I've completely forgotten to mention through all of this! Only remembered it when I saw him doing it earlier and it may mean nothing but..
There is one strange thing he's been doing lately (not sure how long for, a good few weeks but it's not very often). He seems to be chewing on litter (fitch) - specifically litter with his urine on it. I keep taking it out his mouth when I see him doing it and try to remove the dirty litter as soon as possible so he doesn't do it but I'm wondering if it means something? It's not really that frequent, certainly not a daily thing but I've caught him doing it a few times and I'm wondering if it could be indicating something? Maybe he's lacking in something?
Feel stupid for only remembering it now Hadn't seen him doing it for a little while but saw him doing it last night.

~ILoveMyBunny~ said:

He really is
Always steals everyone's heart :lol:

Edit: Oh, something I've completely forgotten to mention through all of this! Only remembered it when I saw him doing it earlier and it may mean nothing but..
There is one strange thing he's been doing lately (not sure how long for, a good few weeks but it's not very often). He seems to be chewing on litter (fitch) - specifically litter with his urine on it. I keep taking it out his mouth when I see him doing it and try to remove the dirty litter as soon as possible so he doesn't do it but I'm wondering if it means something? It's not really that frequent, certainly not a daily thing but I've caught him doing it a few times and I'm wondering if it could be indicating something? Maybe he's lacking in something?
Feel stupid for only remembering it now Hadn't seen him doing it for a little while but saw him doing it last night.

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I have known Rabbits to lick their own urine or eat urine soiled litter due to some sort of oral discomfort. Has Pixel ever had any skull radiographs taken during a Dental ? If not I'd advise asking the Vet about doing so if Pixel needs another Dental under GA. Tooth root elongation can play a part in Dental problems - ie the development of molar spurs, overly long molar crowns, jaw pain (which can be intermittent ). Rabbits with elongated tooth roots can also become more selective eaters, often preferring to eat pellets rather than hay as the jaw action required to chew hay (rotational) can cause more discomfort than that needed to eat pellets (an up-and-down' jaw action).

This link may be useful to take a look at :

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Dental_diseases/Differential/Rabbit_dentistry.pdf

~ILoveMyBunny~ said:

He really is
Always steals everyone's heart :lol:

Edit: Oh, something I've completely forgotten to mention through all of this! Only remembered it when I saw him doing it earlier and it may mean nothing but..
There is one strange thing he's been doing lately (not sure how long for, a good few weeks but it's not very often). He seems to be chewing on litter (fitch) - specifically litter with his urine on it. I keep taking it out his mouth when I see him doing it and try to remove the dirty litter as soon as possible so he doesn't do it but I'm wondering if it means something? It's not really that frequent, certainly not a daily thing but I've caught him doing it a few times and I'm wondering if it could be indicating something? Maybe he's lacking in something?
Feel stupid for only remembering it now Hadn't seen him doing it for a little while but saw him doing it last night.

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You know, I've known rabbits do this kind of thing over the years, and it can mean something or totally nothing!

You can run it by the vet when you take him in for his X-ray, but I should think the X-ray and another exam might pinpoint something useful. I wouldn't worry about him chewing on the fitch right now, but if he does it more, take it away and just use newspaper and hay?

He is certainly very cute

I hadn't realised that you were about to move. Have you considered which vet you would be using when you do?

FWIW I would be querying the fact that he has spurs starting again after less than a week. I haven't enough experience of dental issues and treatment, but it does seem to me to be very quick. If it were me, when you go back on Wednesday with Pixel, I would be discussing this and possible reasons for it to be the case. To me it could indicate that the dental wasn't performed as thoroughly as it should have been or alternatively that there is an underlying tooth root issue or misalignment that is the problem, which wasn't known by the vet at the time of the last dental. I think if the vet suggests that another dental is necessary, I would definitely want x-rays done before proceeding with any surgery, although it makes sense that both the x-ray and any surgery would be done under the one GA.

I'm sorry that you are having this worry with Pixel.

Jack's-Jane said:

Has Pixel ever had any skull radiographs taken during a Dental ?[/url]

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No, not yet but I've already decided (subject to asking my vet) to try to get them done at the next dental as I'm concerned there could be more going on here than just spurs. Tooth roots are what I'm really worried about. I don't know a lot about them or how treatable they are. As I understand it it varies depending on the rabbit but I know it's a lot more serious than simple spurs.
Am I allowed to request a copy of the x-ray? If so I may see if I can get a copy when he has one.
My vet's back on the 8th and I have three booked in on that day for vaccinations so I'm hoping to be able to talk to her about it then if she has time.
Thank you so much for the link, I'll have a look at it. I did actually glance at that page briefly the other day but didn't have a chance to read it properly.

MightyMax said:

I wouldn't worry about him chewing on the fitch right now, but if he does it more, take it away and just use newspaper and hay?

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I could try that, though he does love the taste of newspaper... :roll:

Omi said:

I hadn't realised that you were about to move. Have you considered which vet you would be using when you do?

FWIW I would be querying the fact that he has spurs starting again after less than a week. I haven't enough experience of dental issues and treatment, but it does seem to me to be very quick. If it were me, when you go back on Wednesday with Pixel, I would be discussing this and possible reasons for it to be the case. To me it could indicate that the dental wasn't performed as thoroughly as it should have been or alternatively that there is an underlying tooth root issue or misalignment that is the problem, which wasn't known by the vet at the time of the last dental. I think if the vet suggests that another dental is necessary, I would definitely want x-rays done before proceeding with any surgery, although it makes sense that both the x-ray and any surgery would be done under the one GA.

I'm sorry that you are having this worry with Pixel.

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Unfortunately, not through choice. We can't afford to stay in the area so we'll definitely be having to look for another vet. We've been looking all over the country - lincolnshire, wales etc. We were hoping to be nearer my brothers who are somerset/wiltshire way but even that seems too expensive.
When I know where we're going I'll look through the recommended vet lists and probably post on here to see if I can get any recommendations. I was talking to the receptionist the other day at the vet and she said that Karolina (my vet) is in touch with a lot of rabbit-savvy vets and said she might be able to help me find a good one when we know where we're going, which I thought was really nice.

It does seem surprisingly quick for them to start again. I know I've read about a few extreme cases now where rabbits have had them start up again in a couple of weeks but it doesn't feel right for Pixel given his history so far. I will definitely ask the vet but the one we're seeing doesn't have the same rabbit knowledge as Karolina I don't think. It's her I really want him to see. Though to his credit he did look after Pixel very well the other day when he was in stasis so I may have misjudged him.

Yes, I think the unanimous thought here is that he needs x-rays and it was something I had already decided on myself. I'd prefer to not have to do it separately but if this goes on too much longer I will discuss it with my vet because I still feel this isn't right.
He's bright and happy and he is eating better, but he's not eating like he should, nor is his output like it should be yet. They're still too small in number for my liking, a little small in size and very dark so although he's eating hay I don't think he's having enough.
He has lost a small amount weight since the dental was done, though I think a little would be expected after the trouble he had eating. But if it's continuing to decline as of wednesday I may have to consider getting the x-ray done early.
It's not fair. He's such a happy little thing and to keep being poked at with syringes and taken up and down to vets is stressing him out. He just wants to be able to be himself, secure at home, digging and causing trouble like the mischievous little bunny he is. I feel so awful for all I'm having to put him through.