Megacolon..?

[bunny momma]

I have not noted very pale fecal poo, just abnormally large, wet and oval in shape.

My Dash had the large, wet, oval poos that Jane mentions. He is fed only hay and veggies. I also ordered the Avipro Plus prebiotic to sprinkle on his wet veggies.
Dash's poos have improved, but still not the same. He has gained weight and is very active. He only misses the pellets if I give a few to Evan, his littermate, so I put Evan on the same no pellet diet. Evan gained weight too which is good because he is a very small bunny.

[Graciee]

Hi Gracie. I'm so sorry to hear that Atticus is having such difficult problems.
His GI tract is behaving very differently from Thumper, who was thought to have megacolon by Great Weatern referals (exotics) until the results of PM. His thread is the last "sticky" on Health under rare diseases. His GI tract functioned exactly as in the caecal type of megacolon, but I don't think it will be much help to you because one of his big problems was absorbtion through the thickened caecal wall.

Has Atticus had an ultrasound examination of the GI tract? This can be done without GA in many rabbits & will show how the GI tract is moving = detect megacolon segments which lack a nerve supply & can't contract properly & in good hands show any thickening of the gut wall, as well as blocks to the forward movement of the poohs.

It seems to me with no vet qualifications whatsoever that the caecum is the main affected area, rather than the colon which is commoner, but megacolon can start in the caecum. It sounds to me as if there is very good , perhaps excessive action in the colon where small particles are seperated from the large fibres pushed into the pouches - haustrae. The large fibres are then expelled as wastes & the small particle smoved backwards into the caecum.
Please forgive me for being "unsavoury" but poohs can tell us a lot about WHERE the problem is in the large gut/cacum, & narrows down diagnostic possibilities, but not WHAT the diagnosis is.

Are his runny caecotrophs really stinky? Does he ever get large masses of runny cacal material mixed in with waste poohs - eyewateringly large - how on earth did he manage to pass that?

One thing which tends to happen if the caecum isn't contracting properly is overgrowth of bacteria which make toxins which slow down the caecum further, & can lead to gas production in some cases. The really runny caecals are those which have been hanging around in the caecum the longest are are usually the smelliest.

I'm sorry to go into details of the workings of a rabbit's lower GI tract & poohs. I found that understanding it, helped a lot with managing diet.
It seems to me that ultrasound is the key investigation here. Is the caecum emptying normally? Is there a tiny impaction? Is the caecal wall thickened? How is the colon moving?

Hi thank you so much for posting on here, MightyMax linked to your thread and I actually read it all - it was very helpful

Atticus has not had any scans so far, My vet looked at different poos and symptoms he had and suggested playing with diet to see if it helped - which it did improve things quite a bit. He's fine on just hay and i've started to give him back his egg cup of daily pellets - This makes his poos very pale yellow now, with the odd large dark brown, wet poo thats a huge ball shape (not sure how he actually passes these...) but when he treads on them they flatten down very easily. I've not seen any caecotrophs in a while now which means he is now eating them, or those large oval/round mounds... are caecotrophs? i'm not sure - he doesn't eat them though also they don't appear to be smelly.

He has had gas a few times also. My vet gave the impression that if i could manage his symptoms that's about as good as it gets. He didn't suggest any further diagnostics, which i got the feeling was because nothing could really be done anyway? He seems okay as long as he doesn't get any forage or veggies - as soon as he has anything like that he seems very uncomfortable and his litter tray starts to look like a lumpy Pollock painting... Poor baby. I really appreciate all the info you've given, I agree that understanding more is always helpful

I want answers and to do the best for him but other than keeping his diet like this, i'm not sure what else i can do.

Side note which is probably very irrelevant - He looks so so gorgeous like - he's a stunner - but he's a rex, but his coat feels terrible, compared to his sister and another rex I have. That's probably not relevant but just thought I should say - he's also always been a bit sickly compared to his sister and he always has a messy bum and tail since he was neutered (I realise producing those kind of large poos can't be easy to clean up after, but he's just never clean down there).

[Graciee]

My Dash had the large, wet, oval poos that Jane mentions. He is fed only hay and veggies. I also ordered the Avipro Plus prebiotic to sprinkle on his wet veggies.
Dash's poos have improved, but still not the same. He has gained weight and is very active. He only misses the pellets if I give a few to Evan, his littermate, so I put Evan on the same no pellet diet. Evan gained weight too which is good because he is a very small bunny.

Ah that's interesting, Atticus has the large, wet oval ones too, but his normal formed poos are very very pale. He doesn't seem to be able to tolerate veggies at all either

[Graciee]

Not particularly pale with Megacolon, Grace, but it's such a mysterious condition. If William suggests it's megacolon and has seen them before, then I bow to his superior knowledge.

How's he within himself? (your bunny, not William!)

Yea William definitely said the pale colour he's seen before in megacolon cases.

Atticus seems okay, unless you give him something other than the small amount of pellets or hay. He has lost some weight but not too much.

[thumps_]

Hi thank you so much for posting on here, MightyMax linked to your thread and I actually read it all - it was very helpful

Atticus has not had any scans so far, My vet looked at different poos and symptoms he had and suggested playing with diet to see if it helped - which it did improve things quite a bit. He's fine on just hay and i've started to give him back his egg cup of daily pellets - This makes his poos very pale yellow now, with the odd large dark brown, wet poo thats a huge ball shape (not sure how he actually passes these...) but when he treads on them they flatten down very easily. I've not seen any caecotrophs in a while now which means he is now eating them, or those large oval/round mounds... are caecotrophs? i'm not sure - he doesn't eat them though also they don't appear to be smelly.

He has had gas a few times also. My vet gave the impression that if i could manage his symptoms that's about as good as it gets. He didn't suggest any further diagnostics, which i got the feeling was because nothing could really be done anyway? He seems okay as long as he doesn't get any forage or veggies - as soon as he has anything like that he seems very uncomfortable and his litter tray starts to look like a lumpy Pollock painting... Poor baby. I really appreciate all the info you've given, I agree that understanding more is always helpful

I want answers and to do the best for him but other than keeping his diet like this, i'm not sure what else i can do.

Side note which is probably very irrelevant - He looks so so gorgeous like - he's a stunner - but he's a rex, but his coat feels terrible, compared to his sister and another rex I have. That's probably not relevant but just thought I should say - he's also always been a bit sickly compared to his sister and he always has a messy bum and tail since he was neutered (I realise producing those kind of large poos can't be easy to clean up after, but he's just never clean down there).

Thank you for your reply & explaining the situation to me.
Atticus really is a stunner.

Please forgive me, (I'm out of practice thinking rabbit GI system) The poohs make sense now, in that there's a general slow down of the lower GI tract.

I'm amazed that you read the whole of that thread which was started when Thumper had been given only 6 weeks left. You now know all that I know on the subject as we struggled to understand it together. Of the megacolon rabbits I've known on here. All are slightly different & we just have to go with the flow (or not) of the pooh.
The really big mounds that tread down easily are from the caecum. It's great that they're not smelly because that means that there aren't a lot of the wrong micro organisms in the caecum. I empathise completely with looking at the mound, then at the rabbit, & thinking "How on earth did THAT come out?" in total disbelief.
I can understand the rabbit viewpoint of being a bit messy at the rear end. They don't want to recycle the "bad material" into their gut, so they need a bit of help from us in that area.

Have you tried small bare twigs? eg apple tree twigs / weeping willow are favourites. They have virtually no nutrient value but give a different type of fibre - lignin to stimulate GI movement.

I think that you're both doing very well in a very tricky situation.

[MightyMax]

Yea William definitely said the pale colour he's seen before in megacolon cases.

Atticus seems okay, unless you give him something other than the small amount of pellets or hay. He has lost some weight but not too much.

I hope he doesn't lose more weight and that you're able to keep it pretty much stable.

I love that thumps has joined your thread She is a mine of info and so generous with it

[thumps_]

I hope he doesn't lose more weight and that you're able to keep it pretty much stable.

I love that thumps has joined your thread She is a mine of info and so generous with it

MM Thank you for your very kind comments & especially for reminding me to explain why I suggested trying lignin - bare twigs.
I was hoping that if the lignin were to improve GI motility a bit, Atticus would be able to eat more (hay) thus helping his weight problems without worsening the tendancy towards caecal dysbiosis.

[bunny mad lisa]

we have a fabulous article about Megacolon in issue 27 of Bunny Mad magazine with lots of great advice. Its a back issue so only £2! we ship worldwide too. www.bunnycreations.co.uk

[Graciee]

we have a fabulous article about Megacolon in issue 27 of Bunny Mad magazine with lots of great advice. Its a back issue so only £2! we ship worldwide too. www.bunnycreations.co.uk

Ooo thanks I'll take a look

Sent from my HTC U11 using Tapatalk

[Graciee]

Thank you for your reply & explaining the situation to me.
Atticus really is a stunner.

Please forgive me, (I'm out of practice thinking rabbit GI system) The poohs make sense now, in that there's a general slow down of the lower GI tract.

I'm amazed that you read the whole of that thread which was started when Thumper had been given only 6 weeks left. You now know all that I know on the subject as we struggled to understand it together. Of the megacolon rabbits I've known on here. All are slightly different & we just have to go with the flow (or not) of the pooh.
The really big mounds that tread down easily are from the caecum. It's great that they're not smelly because that means that there aren't a lot of the wrong micro organisms in the caecum. I empathise completely with looking at the mound, then at the rabbit, & thinking "How on earth did THAT come out?" in total disbelief.
I can understand the rabbit viewpoint of being a bit messy at the rear end. They don't want to recycle the "bad material" into their gut, so they need a bit of help from us in that area.

Have you tried small bare twigs? eg apple tree twigs / weeping willow are favourites. They have virtually no nutrient value but give a different type of fibre - lignin to stimulate GI movement.

I think that you're both doing very well in a very tricky situation.

Yes took me a bit to get through your post but it was so pack with useful info - and once I'm in problem solving mode I tend to research a subject to death haha so nothing is too long

I have tried apple twigs, which he really loves but at the time his litter tray was very bad, but couldn't really tell if they had affected him or if it was something else.

As i've said he's just on hay with 1 egg cup of pellets per day which seems significantly better for him.. But in the last few days i've introduced that prebiotic the vet gave me, before taking it he was pretty stable maybe like 6 odd poos a day (combo of cowpat or huge wet ones) which is the best i've managed to get him to - but his tray is awful and now his bed too, so many wet cowpats I don't know if they were caecotrophs that go treaded down or what but its a complete mess so should I stop the prebiotic? not sure honestly because I know for humans they can upset your system for a couple of days.. but it's really bad so really not sure.

If I can get him back to relatively alright I'll try the twigs again for sure and see if he gets on with them though