Megacolon..?

[MightyMax]

Sorry to resurrect this thread but I was wondering if anyone's megacolon bunny got worse when they were running around more?

Sorry to include gross pictures, but he's been running around on the grass, binkying, zooming, generally going mad and he's left these everywhere seems to be worse than the ones he leaves inside in his litter tray (which still aren't great)

He seems okay in himself, it's just surely he can't be okay if he's producing these kinds of poops? xx

Sent from my HTC U11 using Tapatalk

No, not normal. Unless he ate a lot of wet spring grass while he was out there?

It looks like cow-pile:

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/GI_dise...fferential.htm

Loads of stuff here - you may have seen it already?

https://www.vgr1.com/megacolon/

[Graciee]

Thanks both

I mean he obviously was eating grass I wouldn't say loads of it though? Hard to say he's always running around like a lunatic, or munching away

I just wish I could make him better xx

Sent from my HTC U11 using Tapatalk

[thumps_]

It's lovely to hear from you again & how he's getting on.
I think that it's best to stick to the same thread for the same illness. We can look back & remind ourselves what has happened before, especially what hasn't worked!
(It's the 1st time I've seen a photo of his poohs. I'd say that the caecum is the worst affected part of his GI tract. Megacolon can affect mainly the colon or the caecum, causing slightly different pooh & weight issues )

Yes, I experienced this during the early phase of Thumper's illness. Running around stimulates gut movement, so the caecum is more active & can get rid of the "yuck stuff".
So running around isn't making things worse it's improving gut motility.
It's really good that there are only 2 deformed waste poohs & several reasonably normal ones

My own experience of the caecotroph problem in megacolon is that we control it as best we can all the time, with dietary adjustment but a time comes when whatever we do we can't get the caecals anything like normal.
It's lovely that he feels well enough to have a good run around it means that he isn't getting abdominal pain too.

You're doing really well Gracie.

I'm wondering about a gentle gut motility agent if he has that much effect from a run. domperidone was far more acceptable - "smooth acting" but William may have a good reason not to prescribe these drugs.

[Jack's-Jane]

Running around stimulates gut movement, so the caecum is more active & can get rid of the "yuck stuff".

That is certainly what I have observed too

[MightyMax]

It's lovely to hear from you again & how he's getting on.
I think that it's best to stick to the same thread for the same illness. We can look back & remind ourselves what has happened before, especially what hasn't worked!
(It's the 1st time I've seen a photo of his poohs. I'd say that the caecum is the worst affected part of his GI tract. Megacolon can affect mainly the colon or the caecum, causing slightly different pooh & weight issues )

Yes, I experienced this during the early phase of Thumper's illness. Running around stimulates gut movement, so the caecum is more active & can get rid of the "yuck stuff".
So running around isn't making things worse it's improving gut motility.
It's really good that there are only 2 deformed waste poohs & several reasonably normal ones

My own experience of the caecotroph problem in megacolon is that we control it as best we can all the time, with dietary adjustment but a time comes when whatever we do we can't get the caecals anything like normal.
It's lovely that he feels well enough to have a good run around it means that he isn't getting abdominal pain too.

You're doing really well Gracie.

I'm wondering about a gentle gut motility agent if he has that much effect from a run. domperidone was far more acceptable - "smooth acting" but William may have a good reason not to prescribe these drugs.

Afternoon thumps

I'm glad too that he is running around and being so happy. Seeing a bunny happy is something you need a lot of right now Gracie, and hope for managing his condition

[thumps_]

Afternoon thumps

I'm glad too that he is running around and being so happy. Seeing a bunny happy is something you need a lot of right now Gracie, and hope for managing his condition

Afternoon / evening Mighty Max. I couldn't agree with you more.

[Graciee]

It's lovely to hear from you again & how he's getting on.
I think that it's best to stick to the same thread for the same illness. We can look back & remind ourselves what has happened before, especially what hasn't worked!
(It's the 1st time I've seen a photo of his poohs. I'd say that the caecum is the worst affected part of his GI tract. Megacolon can affect mainly the colon or the caecum, causing slightly different pooh & weight issues )

Yes, I experienced this during the early phase of Thumper's illness. Running around stimulates gut movement, so the caecum is more active & can get rid of the "yuck stuff".
So running around isn't making things worse it's improving gut motility.
It's really good that there are only 2 deformed waste poohs & several reasonably normal ones

My own experience of the caecotroph problem in megacolon is that we control it as best we can all the time, with dietary adjustment but a time comes when whatever we do we can't get the caecals anything like normal.
It's lovely that he feels well enough to have a good run around it means that he isn't getting abdominal pain too.

You're doing really well Gracie.

I'm wondering about a gentle gut motility agent if he has that much effect from a run. domperidone was far more acceptable - "smooth acting" but William may have a good reason not to prescribe these drugs.

Oh sorry I thought I'd posted lots of those delightful images before haha - my phones gallery is full of images of his poop

Did your bunny always suffer with weird poops? from when he was little?

It's just Atticus had completely normal poop at 12 weeks old and continued to have the same up until he was maybe 6 months old? Then the first time I noticed there was something weird with his poo, was actually when he was running around the garden - lots of those huge dark mounds were everywhere (this was after he was neutered - and had a terrible reaction to vetergesic - which may be unrelated but I'm wondering what triggered this to happen..)

And from then on he's been the same - probably again not related but the reaction he had to vetergesic was severe and it changed his personality. it's taken me months to be able to stroke him without him attacking me (he's never been the same since but he is sweet in a different way now)

Today he's been inside (where he lives) he has a small cage with the door removed and has free range access to a lounge - which he does run around but he's more snoozy inside. His litter tray is a mess again - lots of the golden light poop - and lots of the dark mounds - so do you think these are his cecotrophs? I never see his anymore - so I assumed he ate them, or that the huge dark mounds were them. If they are his cecotrophs, is he missing out on nutrients?

I need to take him back to William I think, last time I spoke to him regarding Atticus he didn't seem to think prescribing anything was needed, or would help.

[Graciee]

Afternoon thumps

I'm glad too that he is running around and being so happy. Seeing a bunny happy is something you need a lot of right now Gracie, and hope for managing his condition

Thanks MM x

[thumps_]

Oh sorry I thought I'd posted lots of those delightful images before haha - my phones gallery is full of images of his poop

Did your bunny always suffer with weird poops? from when he was little?

It's just Atticus had completely normal poop at 12 weeks old and continued to have the same up until he was maybe 6 months old? Then the first time I noticed there was something weird with his poo, was actually when he was running around the garden - lots of those huge dark mounds were everywhere (this was after he was neutered - and had a terrible reaction to vetergesic - which may be unrelated but I'm wondering what triggered this to happen..)

And from then on he's been the same - probably again not related but the reaction he had to vetergesic was severe and it changed his personality. it's taken me months to be able to stroke him without him attacking me (he's never been the same since but he is sweet in a different way now)

Today he's been inside (where he lives) he has a small cage with the door removed and has free range access to a lounge - which he does run around but he's more snoozy inside. His litter tray is a mess again - lots of the golden light poop - and lots of the dark mounds - so do you think these are his cecotrophs? I never see his anymore - so I assumed he ate them, or that the huge dark mounds were them. If they are his cecotrophs, is he missing out on nutrients?

I need to take him back to William I think, last time I spoke to him regarding Atticus he didn't seem to think prescribing anything was needed, or would help.

You may have posted those "delightful" photos before & I just missed them. There was a sticky of a gallery of Thumper's poohs once (photobucket stopped being free) Every type, except normal!! What our tummy bunnies do to us eh?
I hope you realise that Thumper didn't have megacolon but areas of the caecum & colon stopped working so his symptoms, gut motility on ultrasound, bloods etc were completely identical to megacolon.
There seem to be 2types of megacolon. the genetic type n n genes is commonest in English spot rabbits with particular eye markings.
When Thumper was here, vets thought that there was a different type of megacolon where the rabbit got a viral infection but wasn't noticably ill with it.the virus stimulated antibodies but had a similar shape to the nerve cells in the lower gut. So the antibies to the virus started to attack the gut nerves. This could affect any breed of rabbit.

Some may disagree, but I think that all the unformed pooh is from the caecum. As rule of thumb with loss of caecal motility in megacolon, larger mounds are from low down in the caecum, & the thinner runny, mucussy stuff is from further inside the caecum & has been in there longer. (I'm still struggling with the computer & bifocals - sorry. Is there a small amount of larger fibres mixed in with the unformed poohs?)

Yes, Thumper had normal poop certainly for the 1st 6 months. He never took hay but loved fresh grass- his favourite. It must have been about 16 weeks when he started to literally eat his outdoor hutch & run (where he went for fresh air until he would come reliably! I also noticed that he'd scoff up fallen apple leaves from his run as soon as it was moved. He was a terrible paper, wallpaper, & cardboard eater, even opened the pedal bin for paper.
This craving for wood fibre is very typical of rabbits with poor caecal motility. They're using a non digestable fibre to increase gut motility. Once I gave him plenty of tree leaves & apple twigs he stoppedeating the things he shouldn't Then he started getting uneaten caecotrophs occasionally. Sorry it's a while ago now & I can't remember exactly when big trouble started.

Atticus is doing things differently from Thumper but the same idea. If I remember - the fibre is coming from the hay & the nutrients from pellets. If you've got his weight stable I wouldn't be too worried about vitamins - he'll get them from his pellets.
the pellets can be digested in the small gut before they get to the caecum.
The bacteria in the caecum are needed to digest the tough stuff in plants - cellulose. Most of the food released by bacteria in the caecum is absorbed through the caecal wall, IMO he's losing about 14% nutrients if he can't eat caecals at all but making up for it with his pellets.

Of the megacolon rabbits I've known on here, the diet that suits them is very idiosynchratic. I can only help with forage because that's what Thumper taught me. I know Atticus can't tolerate forage, so I have to leave that side to those with different experience

yes, you're right. If you don't see any caecals he's eating them. The mounds & yellow stuff are the caecals

I'm going to be worse than you!!! You'll know the normal smell of his poohs. Thumper's were quite nice & musky when normal. Are those loose poohs - mounds & yellow stuff either unpleasant/ different or even really stinky?

Lastly - do you want, or need to know about how the caecum & colon work together & how wastes are seperated from caecal material? When we understand this we can tell WHERE the lower gut isn't working properly but that's all.

[Graciee]

You may have posted those "delightful" photos before & I just missed them. There was a sticky of a gallery of Thumper's poohs once (photobucket stopped being free) Every type, except normal!! What our tummy bunnies do to us eh?
I hope you realise that Thumper didn't have megacolon but areas of the caecum & colon stopped working so his symptoms, gut motility on ultrasound, bloods etc were completely identical to megacolon.
There seem to be 2types of megacolon. the genetic type n n genes is commonest in English spot rabbits with particular eye markings.
When Thumper was here, vets thought that there was a different type of megacolon where the rabbit got a viral infection but wasn't noticably ill with it.the virus stimulated antibodies but had a similar shape to the nerve cells in the lower gut. So the antibies to the virus started to attack the gut nerves. This could affect any breed of rabbit.

Some may disagree, but I think that all the unformed pooh is from the caecum. As rule of thumb with loss of caecal motility in megacolon, larger mounds are from low down in the caecum, & the thinner runny, mucussy stuff is from further inside the caecum & has been in there longer. (I'm still struggling with the computer & bifocals - sorry. Is there a small amount of larger fibres mixed in with the unformed poohs?)

Yes, Thumper had normal poop certainly for the 1st 6 months. He never took hay but loved fresh grass- his favourite. It must have been about 16 weeks when he started to literally eat his outdoor hutch & run (where he went for fresh air until he would come reliably! I also noticed that he'd scoff up fallen apple leaves from his run as soon as it was moved. He was a terrible paper, wallpaper, & cardboard eater, even opened the pedal bin for paper.
This craving for wood fibre is very typical of rabbits with poor caecal motility. They're using a non digestable fibre to increase gut motility. Once I gave him plenty of tree leaves & apple twigs he stoppedeating the things he shouldn't Then he started getting uneaten caecotrophs occasionally. Sorry it's a while ago now & I can't remember exactly when big trouble started.

Atticus is doing things differently from Thumper but the same idea. If I remember - the fibre is coming from the hay & the nutrients from pellets. If you've got his weight stable I wouldn't be too worried about vitamins - he'll get them from his pellets.
the pellets can be digested in the small gut before they get to the caecum.
The bacteria in the caecum are needed to digest the tough stuff in plants - cellulose. Most of the food released by bacteria in the caecum is absorbed through the caecal wall, IMO he's losing about 14% nutrients if he can't eat caecals at all but making up for it with his pellets.

Of the megacolon rabbits I've known on here, the diet that suits them is very idiosynchratic. I can only help with forage because that's what Thumper taught me. I know Atticus can't tolerate forage, so I have to leave that side to those with different experience

yes, you're right. If you don't see any caecals he's eating them. The mounds & yellow stuff are the caecals

I'm going to be worse than you!!! You'll know the normal smell of his poohs. Thumper's were quite nice & musky when normal. Are those loose poohs - mounds & yellow stuff either unpleasant/ different or even really stinky?

Lastly - do you want, or need to know about how the caecum & colon work together & how wastes are seperated from caecal material? When we understand this we can tell WHERE the lower gut isn't working properly but that's all.

Hi sorry it's taken me so long to reply - He's now bonded with his sister and has been doing okay - they seem happy together at least

Yes, there looks like there are fibres in the unformed poos. I'm going to attach two very grim images in a minute - He's been outside for a couple of hours so been running around more than he would normally and he's left a lot of mess on the grass (taken a picture of one poo, and the other is his underneath when I brought him in just now - he was completely clean when I let him out a few hours ago )

I did see him eat 'something' directly from himself the other day - but it sounded crunchy - not too sure what that means and yes the smell of the unformed poos is terrible. Sometimes I'll wake up in the morning go see to them, and have to clean them out fully because he's had a bad night and the smell is horrendous.

I really think he needs to go back to the vet, but last time I went there was no answers really - and it didn't seem like there was anything he could do He's has no testing really except the poo examined.

Not really sure what to do for him, I mean currently they're in a confined area indoors (because of bonding etc) but as I increase the space, especially outside he runs more and more, and gets into a mess, with summer coming up and flies I'm very worried