Megacolon..?

Graciee · Jan 16, 2018

MightyMax said:
I hope he doesn't lose more weight and that you're able to keep it pretty much stable.

I love that thumps has joined your thread She is a mine of info and so generous with it

Yes same to both

very concerned by the reaction to the prebiotic now though - don't want him to get gassy again

DebbieC · Jan 17, 2018

Hi, I'm sorry to hear you have a megacolon bunny. I have one too, she was very poorly and had lots of tests and vet visits before being diagnosed. She is on daily medication of cisapride, zantac, emperid and metacam and has been for over a year and a half. For the first year we kept her on a diet of only hay, a few select fresh herbs and critical care. She seemed quite lethargic and a lot of the time though, not to mention very under weight, and she eventually got bored of the food and refused the critical care. Out of desperation we fed her dual care pellets and gradually introduced a bigger selection of herbs, redigrass and forage. She managed to put weight on and get more energy as she was getting more variety, although she couldn't cope on this diet without the medication alongside it. It's such a nasty disease, it's horrible when i see her in discomfort, but the meds have definitely helped. Its a case of trial and error with finding what works for your bunny as everyone bun is different

bunny momma · Jan 20, 2018

Sending you and your bunny some positive vibes. You may need to experiment with different combinations of greens, types of hay, and pellets to find a combination that controls the condition as best you can. I would not add anything new too quickly; or add too more than one new item at a time. It may be a few days between changes before you know if it was a positive change or not.
Even a fresh bag of hay/food can cause a disruption of their GI balance in some bunnies; so I now mix some of the old with the new so the change is not as abrupt.

thumps_ · Jan 20, 2018

Graciee said:
Yes same to both very concerned by the reaction to the prebiotic now though - don't want him to get gassy again

I empathise with this problem. My experience of Avipro plus with Thumper was that it was ineffective, although he had a big dysbiosis problem. (Caecum packed up completely for 10 months)
I've been reluctant to advise our mainstay, which was blackthorn leaves, because they HAVE to be gathered after the "berries" called sloes are completely ripe - about September. They are not safely available commercially, so you would have to ask the foragers on here for help.
I don't know how blackthorn leaves actually work, but my impression is that they preferentially remove the micro organisms which make toxins which slow down the bowel. When the bowel is already slow from poor nerve supply ..... the aim is obvious.

For gas, I used a very modified "tummy rub". Never massaging directly over the abdomen, but stroking gently but firmly down the sides & slightly curving my fingers under, as Thumper would permit, when given complete freedom to move away. 1st on one side then the other.
Rather than putting direct pressure on gas filled bowel, this gently shifts the bowel from side to side in the abdomen & helps to get the gas pocket moving & disperse it. (latterly, when Thumper had exceeded the max dose of meds this was the only way I could start him up again when we had 5 mins without any bowel sounds situations)

For us, it was very close team work with vet, rabbit, & myself. I think it's probably the same for all of us, but those of us who have followed this path before you, can at least cautiously "open a few doors" - "This or that might help".

The other option for gas in this situation would be dill seed tea. 1 teaspoon of dill seeds in a mug, pour over boiling water & cool. Strain off the liquid & offer to bunny. TBH neither of mine would drink it! but I think that if we gave fresh dill leaves to Atticus it could worsen his dysbiosis considerably.

MightyMax · Jan 21, 2018

Graciee said:
Yes same to both very concerned by the reaction to the prebiotic now though - don't want him to get gassy again

That's quite worrying ... Was it Avipro?

I don't use it, as there's no evidence that it does any good. I'm sure you know this already, but Frances Harcourt Brown suggests there's no evidence to support it's usefulness:

Pre-biotics and probiotics were mentioned. It has been shown that they may increase the rate at which commercial rabbits can be grown, there is no evidence to support any medical benefit to rabbits or if they can help rebalance gut flora in poorly rabbits.

I'm sorry to hear that prebiotics may have been the cause of further gut disturbance. You really need some answers, Grace xx

Graciee · Jan 23, 2018

MightyMax said:
That's quite worrying ... Was it Avipro?

I don't use it, as there's no evidence that it does any good. I'm sure you know this already, but Frances Harcourt Brown suggests there's no evidence to support it's usefulness:

Pre-biotics and probiotics were mentioned. It has been shown that they may increase the rate at which commercial rabbits can be grown, there is no evidence to support any medical benefit to rabbits or if they can help rebalance gut flora in poorly rabbits.

I'm sorry to hear that prebiotics may have been the cause of further gut disturbance. You really need some answers, Grace xx

Yea it was the Avipro, stopped giving it to him but he just seems so much worse again

I don't really know what to do anymore, I mean I feel like William has said all there is to say about it, and now its just up to me to try and manage it. He seems to have lost being litter trained... which isn't ideal considering the consistency of his output :/

I know you aren't meant to bath bunnies - but what can I bath his bum in? Like is there anything I can use that wont irritate the area... it's bad down there and he's not cleaning himself

xx

Here's Mr grumpy pants after biting me...

Graciee · Jan 23, 2018

bunny momma said:
Sending you and your bunny some positive vibes. You may need to experiment with different combinations of greens, types of hay, and pellets to find a combination that controls the condition as best you can. I would not add anything new too quickly; or add too more than one new item at a time. It may be a few days between changes before you know if it was a positive change or not.
Even a fresh bag of hay/food can cause a disruption of their GI balance in some bunnies; so I now mix some of the old with the new so the change is not as abrupt.

Thank you

Thanks what I've been doing so far, but it takes him so long to recover after he eats something "bad"

Graciee · Jan 23, 2018

DebbieC said:
Hi, I'm sorry to hear you have a megacolon bunny. I have one too, she was very poorly and had lots of tests and vet visits before being diagnosed. She is on daily medication of cisapride, zantac, emperid and metacam and has been for over a year and a half. For the first year we kept her on a diet of only hay, a few select fresh herbs and critical care. She seemed quite lethargic and a lot of the time though, not to mention very under weight, and she eventually got bored of the food and refused the critical care. Out of desperation we fed her dual care pellets and gradually introduced a bigger selection of herbs, redigrass and forage. She managed to put weight on and get more energy as she was getting more variety, although she couldn't cope on this diet without the medication alongside it. It's such a nasty disease, it's horrible when i see her in discomfort, but the meds have definitely helped. Its a case of trial and error with finding what works for your bunny as everyone bun is different

What tests exactly did you have done for your bunny? (hope you don't me asking) x

Graciee · Jan 23, 2018

thumps_ said:
I empathise with this problem. My experience of Avipro plus with Thumper was that it was ineffective, although he had a big dysbiosis problem. (Caecum packed up completely for 10 months)
I've been reluctant to advise our mainstay, which was blackthorn leaves, because they HAVE to be gathered after the "berries" called sloes are completely ripe - about September. They are not safely available commercially, so you would have to ask the foragers on here for help.
I don't know how blackthorn leaves actually work, but my impression is that they preferentially remove the micro organisms which make toxins which slow down the bowel. When the bowel is already slow from poor nerve supply ..... the aim is obvious.

For gas, I used a very modified "tummy rub". Never massaging directly over the abdomen, but stroking gently but firmly down the sides & slightly curving my fingers under, as Thumper would permit, when given complete freedom to move away. 1st on one side then the other.
Rather than putting direct pressure on gas filled bowel, this gently shifts the bowel from side to side in the abdomen & helps to get the gas pocket moving & disperse it. (latterly, when Thumper had exceeded the max dose of meds this was the only way I could start him up again when we had 5 mins without any bowel sounds situations)

For us, it was very close team work with vet, rabbit, & myself. I think it's probably the same for all of us, but those of us who have followed this path before you, can at least cautiously "open a few doors" - "This or that might help".

The other option for gas in this situation would be dill seed tea. 1 teaspoon of dill seeds in a mug, pour over boiling water & cool. Strain off the liquid & offer to bunny. TBH neither of mine would drink it! but I think that if we gave fresh dill leaves to Atticus it could worsen his dysbiosis considerably.

Ah my dad used to pick sloes to make sloe gin - but i'd be a bit scared i'd get it wrong... plus its not September yet haha regarding belly rub... that wont work as Atticus can be so sweet and then so vicious :shock:

I'll give the tea a go next time his stomach settles down thank you xx

MightyMax · Jan 23, 2018

Graciee said:
Yea it was the Avipro, stopped giving it to him but he just seems so much worse again I don't really know what to do anymore, I mean I feel like William has said all there is to say about it, and now its just up to me to try and manage it. He seems to have lost being litter trained... which isn't ideal considering the consistency of his output :/

I know you aren't meant to bath bunnies - but what can I bath his bum in? Like is there anything I can use that wont irritate the area... it's bad down there and he's not cleaning himself xx

Here's Mr grumpy pants after biting me...

Sorry Grace

He's a beautiful rabbit

I just use a half inch of warm water and swish it around. I don't put any shampoo or anything in there, and never have. The dirtiest bunnies come clean with water.

But you do have to dry rather thoroughly, as you know

thumps_ · Jan 24, 2018

Graciee said:
Ah my dad used to pick sloes to make sloe gin - but i'd be a bit scared i'd get it wrong... plus its not September yet haha regarding belly rub... that wont work as Atticus can be so sweet and then so vicious :shock:

I'll give the tea a go next time his stomach settles down thank you xx

I'll try not to pressure you but to give you more confidence I can't see how you could get it wrong. Not all bushes have sloes on but this changes from year to year. When they blossom in roughly April the blossom comes out before the leaves. This is to identify where they are in your area. You'll soon see them from 1/4 mile away, just need to have a quick drive round your area. OK for your oiwn stock you'll have to wait until Sept. It's really easy if there are sloes on the bush! Tune in to the leaf shape & the colour. It's quite subtle but not that common = helps you find other bushes. You'll find HUGE thorns about 1"+ long inside the bush, at the same level as the sloes. Nothing else has these. Avoid stabbing yourself by handling very loosely & taking the more superficial, thornless twigs. The final test of love. Take the tiniest nibble of the leaf If it's blackthorn it'll dry out the tip of your tongue - the proverbial parrot's cage effect. Have you ever tasted a sloe before it's been steeped in spirit? Exactly the same effect! Hence the tiniest nibble.

No it isn't September yet. I used to keep a store just for RUers when I was more active on here. I just collect some for my local vet now I'm rabbitless. My experience of the foragers is that they are very generous people. For now, maybe try to ask them on the diet threads. It's just a suggestion - no offense whatsoever if you're not keen for whatever reason.

Graciee · Jan 25, 2018

thumps_ said:
I'll try not to pressure you but to give you more confidence I can't see how you could get it wrong. Not all bushes have sloes on but this changes from year to year. When they blossom in roughly April the blossom comes out before the leaves. This is to identify where they are in your area. You'll soon see them from 1/4 mile away, just need to have a quick drive round your area. OK for your oiwn stock you'll have to wait until Sept. It's really easy if there are sloes on the bush! Tune in to the leaf shape & the colour. It's quite subtle but not that common = helps you find other bushes. You'll find HUGE thorns about 1"+ long inside the bush, at the same level as the sloes. Nothing else has these. Avoid stabbing yourself by handling very loosely & taking the more superficial, thornless twigs. The final test of love. Take the tiniest nibble of the leaf If it's blackthorn it'll dry out the tip of your tongue - the proverbial parrot's cage effect. Have you ever tasted a sloe before it's been steeped in spirit? Exactly the same effect! Hence the tiniest nibble.

No it isn't September yet. I used to keep a store just for RUers when I was more active on here. I just collect some for my local vet now I'm rabbitless. My experience of the foragers is that they are very generous people. For now, maybe try to ask them on the diet threads. It's just a suggestion - no offense whatsoever if you're not keen for whatever reason.

I'll definitely give it a go, so just to be clear so I don't mess up - I won't actually be able to get any until September right? But I should go find some bushes in April so that I know the locations? If so i'll take my dad with me as he knows where some are in the local country park.

Thanks for suggestion I really do want to try everything, I'm just a little scared about poisoning him, I doubt myself a lot haha x

Graciee · Jan 25, 2018

MightyMax said:
Sorry Grace

He's a beautiful rabbit

I just use a half inch of warm water and swish it around. I don't put any shampoo or anything in there, and never have. The dirtiest bunnies come clean with water.

But you do have to dry rather thoroughly, as you know

Thanks, I'll do just that

xx

DebbieC · Jan 25, 2018

Graciee said:
What tests exactly did you have done for your bunny? (hope you don't me asking) x

Of course I don't mind. They sent off samples of her poops and pee to check for coccodosis (not sure if that's the correct spelling) and to check for any other issues. She had all her levels checked on her heart, liver lungs etc and X-Rays. Then we was told to try on on a hay only diet then gradually introduce other food to see if that made any difference. She went to a few vets but eventually we found one that did plenty of research and said it ticks every box for megacolon - she was an English spot, she large mishapen poos and the extremely gassy stomach

thumps_ · Jan 25, 2018

Graciee said:
I'll definitely give it a go, so just to be clear so I don't mess up - I won't actually be able to get any until September right? But I should go find some bushes in April so that I know the locations? If so i'll take my dad with me as he knows where some are in the local country park.

Thanks for suggestion I really do want to try everything, I'm just a little scared about poisoning him, I doubt myself a lot haha x

Got it in one! It's very good to be cautious about forage & we used to encourage this. Sometimes people would post photos for I D. When we started, we liked 2 experienced foragers to independantly I D a photo. Even if it was a dandelion

Graciee · Feb 2, 2018

DebbieC said:
Of course I don't mind. They sent off samples of her poops and pee to check for coccodosis (not sure if that's the correct spelling) and to check for any other issues. She had all her levels checked on her heart, liver lungs etc and X-Rays. Then we was told to try on on a hay only diet then gradually introduce other food to see if that made any difference. She went to a few vets but eventually we found one that did plenty of research and said it ticks every box for megacolon - she was an English spot, she large mishapen poos and the extremely gassy stomach

Thanks so much for this

x

Sent from my HTC U11 using Tapatalk

Graciee · Feb 2, 2018

thumps_ said:
Got it in one! It's very good to be cautious about forage & we used to encourage this. Sometimes people would post photos for I D. When we started, we liked 2 experienced foragers to independantly I D a photo. Even if it was a dandelion

Yes I really wouldn't want to get it wrong haha

When you stroke a normal bunny are you meant to easily feel all the bones? Shoulder blades and spine on Atticus are very pronounced... Trying to work out if he's lost too much weight or my other two are on the podgy side...? [emoji51]

See attached picture, it's probably hard to see but those are his shoulders blades I think? Well they're bones sticking out. He's just laying down on my lap there x

Sent from my HTC U11 using Tapatalk

thumps_ · Feb 3, 2018

Graciee said:
Yes I really wouldn't want to get it wrong haha

When you stroke a normal bunny are you meant to easily feel all the bones? Shoulder blades and spine on Atticus are very pronounced... Trying to work out if he's lost too much weight or my other two are on the podgy side...? [emoji51]

See attached picture, it's probably hard to see but those are his shoulders blades I think? Well they're bones sticking out. He's just laying down on my lap there x

Sent from my HTC U11 using Tapatalk

Could someone more used to Rex rabbits please answer Graciee? Mine were very thick coated, & had to be weighed on scales to assess weight loss.

MightyMax · Feb 3, 2018

Graciee said:
Yes I really wouldn't want to get it wrong haha

When you stroke a normal bunny are you meant to easily feel all the bones? Shoulder blades and spine on Atticus are very pronounced... Trying to work out if he's lost too much weight or my other two are on the podgy side...? [emoji51]

See attached picture, it's probably hard to see but those are his shoulders blades I think? Well they're bones sticking out. He's just laying down on my lap there x

Sent from my HTC U11 using Tapatalk

Ideally, no you shouldn't be able to feel all the bones.

Sometimes rabbits carry more weight in their undercarriage, but even so, I wouldn't expect the top to be bony.

Graciee · Feb 3, 2018

MightyMax said:
Ideally, no you shouldn't be able to feel all the bones.

Sometimes rabbits carry more weight in their undercarriage, but even so, I wouldn't expect the top to be bony.

He definitely is bony

should I take him to the vet? I realistically can't increase his pellets and he eats loads and loads of hay... Not sure what else I can feed him to make him put on weight

Sent from my HTC U11 using Tapatalk

Megacolon..?

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