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EC or Ear infection? Which meds?

JK_

New Kit
Good evening

Apologies in advance for what feels like a lengthy first post, but I'm beginning to run out of solutions to help our rabbit (Domino).

It all began on Wednesday 8th November where she had a day where she was very much off her food and lethargic - very out of character, Domino will always spend as much time in the garden as she can (she's a house rabbit). The next day, absolutely fine, back eating like a pig and energy seemed to have returned.

The morning of Friday 10th November however, I came down to the kitchen at 7am to find her seemingly disorientated, eyes flickering and head 'pulling' to the left. She managed to get her to the vets for 9am, where he diagnosed that EC was the likely cause... possibly (less likely) a stroke. An infection wasn't mentioned. Panacur paste (3 sections) was prescribed and 0.3ml of metacam (she weighs 2.9kg).

She seemed to recover fantastically well over the weekend and had a follow up vet appointment on the Monday. However she was still suffering from a few balancing issues and so I wanted to ask and for them to check whether it could potentially be an ear infection. The vet viewed her ears and saw a little discharge but still thought EC was still the likely cause, nevertheless, baytril was then prescribed to replace the metacam. The panacur dosage was also reduced to 1 section per day.

Her condition for the past week hadn't changed drastically, I'd argue her balance got slightly better but her head tilt seems to have become more pronounced. She's still eating, weeing and pooping (albeit a little smaller). Her confidence does seem quite low though, and is being quite 'clingy' with her partner.

Her final checkup was this evening. As soon as she was placed in the carrier she began to 'roll' uncontrollably, seemingly unable to lift her head. During the wait at the vets she couldn't stand was found to be on her back at one point in the carrier. :(

As we were waiting, the nurse suggested she take Domino in the back to try and get her to calm down/stand up whilst we waited for a room to become free. When one did, the vet was very concerned and discussed euthanasia as an option, the other was to increase the dosage of panacur to it's original level. The vet then admitted that the branch wasn't best placed to deal with rabbits and suggested that we contact a sister branch (it's a shame it took 3 visits for them to tell us that!!).

When leaving the branch, Domino appeared lifeless and unable to stand. We were bracing ourselves for the worst, but when we arrived home and opened the carrier, she literally ran out and hid in one of her boxes, unfortunately slipping as she did so and entering into one of her 'rolling' episodes. However the fact she was up and about seemed miraculous given the state she was in 15minutes prior. I can only think this was brought on by stress perhaps? Unfortunately her confidence seems to be deteriorating, and since the episode tonight, she's fallen over/rolled uncontrollably on two more occasions - her body almost becoming rigid and unable to get up without assistance. :cry:

For the past 10 days I've read as many online forums on the topic of EC/ear infections as I can. However the consensus appears to be that baytril now seems to be inefficient to deal with middle or inner infections. I'm incredibly reluctant to subject her to another car journey to visit another vets, I honestly think it would be too much for her. Whether her condition is worsening on it's own or was triggered by the latest vet journey I do not know (she's a very nervous rabbit by nature anyway).

I have asked a supposed specialist 'exotic animals' vet for a telephone consultation, or even pay for a private home visit - if such a thing exists!? However I'm aware that there is a fantastic amount of knowledge on these forums and therefore seek advice about possible alternative medications. I asked today's vet whether baytril would be strong enough, his response being it's the strongest anti-biotic they have for rabbits.

I've read numerous threads which mention the likes of Stemetil (anti nausea I believe) or Zithromax (a stronger anti-biotic). Does anyone have any experience using these?

Thank you all in advance!
 
I'm sorry to hear about Domino. I think middle & inner ear infections are only really diagnosable through xrays / scans. If this were diagnosed I agree you'd need something stronger than baytril but at the moment there is a very good chance it is EC. My bun took about 6 weeks to show any real progress & its normal to take a few steps back / relapse. Stress does set it off so travel, vets etc

I personally would continue with baytril, metacam & panacur. Metacam is important for pain relief & is anti inflammatory too - real important for EC.

Did you vet do any EC tests?
 
Hi,

Thanks for the response. Nope, no tests, although my understanding is that blood tests aren't necessarily conclusive anyway? Or is there another way?

After 10 days on panacur paste, we're now using the granules - fortunately these are alot easier to mask so she's more accepting of them! Though tips/tricks for disguising baytril/metacam however would certainly be welcomed. I'm just very conscious about potentially 'missing something', or if we would be seeking something a bit stronger to help the poor girl.
 
Yes, EC tests aren't that reliable although if they did show a high number of spores that would be valuable info. A positive test in iself isn't that useful as many (most?) domestic buns will carry it without probs. One of my girls is on baytril at the mo & was a massive struggle to medicate. I've just started grinding a few pellets, few drops of juice & fenugreek powder. She wolfs it down now.

If the rolling continues it would be useful to restrict her space for the time being & make it as safe as possible if rolling starts again

Its really stressful to see. I hope she recovers well
 
Good evening

Apologies in advance for what feels like a lengthy first post, but I'm beginning to run out of solutions to help our rabbit (Domino).

It all began on Wednesday 8th November where she had a day where she was very much off her food and lethargic - very out of character, Domino will always spend as much time in the garden as she can (she's a house rabbit). The next day, absolutely fine, back eating like a pig and energy seemed to have returned.

The morning of Friday 10th November however, I came down to the kitchen at 7am to find her seemingly disorientated, eyes flickering and head 'pulling' to the left. She managed to get her to the vets for 9am, where he diagnosed that EC was the likely cause... possibly (less likely) a stroke. An infection wasn't mentioned. Panacur paste (3 sections) was prescribed and 0.3ml of metacam (she weighs 2.9kg).

She seemed to recover fantastically well over the weekend and had a follow up vet appointment on the Monday. However she was still suffering from a few balancing issues and so I wanted to ask and for them to check whether it could potentially be an ear infection. The vet viewed her ears and saw a little discharge but still thought EC was still the likely cause, nevertheless, baytril was then prescribed to replace the metacam. The panacur dosage was also reduced to 1 section per day.

Her condition for the past week hadn't changed drastically, I'd argue her balance got slightly better but her head tilt seems to have become more pronounced. She's still eating, weeing and pooping (albeit a little smaller). Her confidence does seem quite low though, and is being quite 'clingy' with her partner.

Her final checkup was this evening. As soon as she was placed in the carrier she began to 'roll' uncontrollably, seemingly unable to lift her head. During the wait at the vets she couldn't stand was found to be on her back at one point in the carrier. :(

As we were waiting, the nurse suggested she take Domino in the back to try and get her to calm down/stand up whilst we waited for a room to become free. When one did, the vet was very concerned and discussed euthanasia as an option, the other was to increase the dosage of panacur to it's original level. The vet then admitted that the branch wasn't best placed to deal with rabbits and suggested that we contact a sister branch (it's a shame it took 3 visits for them to tell us that!!).

When leaving the branch, Domino appeared lifeless and unable to stand. We were bracing ourselves for the worst, but when we arrived home and opened the carrier, she literally ran out and hid in one of her boxes, unfortunately slipping as she did so and entering into one of her 'rolling' episodes. However the fact she was up and about seemed miraculous given the state she was in 15minutes prior. I can only think this was brought on by stress perhaps? Unfortunately her confidence seems to be deteriorating, and since the episode tonight, she's fallen over/rolled uncontrollably on two more occasions - her body almost becoming rigid and unable to get up without assistance. :cry:

For the past 10 days I've read as many online forums on the topic of EC/ear infections as I can. However the consensus appears to be that baytril now seems to be inefficient to deal with middle or inner infections. I'm incredibly reluctant to subject her to another car journey to visit another vets, I honestly think it would be too much for her. Whether her condition is worsening on it's own or was triggered by the latest vet journey I do not know (she's a very nervous rabbit by nature anyway).

I have asked a supposed specialist 'exotic animals' vet for a telephone consultation, or even pay for a private home visit - if such a thing exists!? However I'm aware that there is a fantastic amount of knowledge on these forums and therefore seek advice about possible alternative medications. I asked today's vet whether baytril would be strong enough, his response being it's the strongest anti-biotic they have for rabbits.

I've read numerous threads which mention the likes of Stemetil (anti nausea I believe) or Zithromax (a stronger anti-biotic). Does anyone have any experience using these?

Thank you all in advance!


Hi there and welcome to the Forum :wave:

I'm really sorry to hear about Domino, and also about the way your vet surgery has treated you all.

From what you say, it really could be either E.C. or an inner ear infection. Suspicious that there was some discharge from the ear, though it's not always conclusive without a CT scan (or X-ray in some cases).

Some info on both conditions below:

http://www.dechra.co.uk/therapy-are...cs-antifungals/disease-information/e-cuniculi


If an inner ear infection is suspected, antibiotic cover would usually be given, and there’s some info here:

**please note there are some very graphic images on this link**
http://www.exoticpetmedicine.com/article/S1557-5063(16)30173-2/pdf

http://www.veterinarywebinars.com/m...oads/2016/03/Study_Notes_Ear_Nose_Rabbits.pdf


For the parasite E.C. you will need a 28 day course of Panacur. That has been shown to be the optimum level of treatment. Throughout the treatment, Metacam should be given as it is an anti-inflammatory and will help to mitigate any spores from the E.C. that erupt in organs such as the brain and kidneys.

With an ear infection, Baytril has shown to be effective in some cases. However, as you mention, Zithromax is another possible antibiotic, though not without it's side effects.

Injectable penicillin has been shown to have good effect, and I am rather surprised that your vet surgery only supply Baytril. Granted, it's the only one licensed for use in rabbits, but there are others that have been shown to be relatively safe and effective, such as injectable penicillin.


Would you consider perhaps looking for another vet?

If you feel the need to do so you can start another thread in Rabbit Chat with the header:


Rabbit Savvy Vet needed in (your location)

...and members will help you out with their recommendations.

Alternatively you could look here:

https://www.harcourt-brown.co.uk/vetfinder/vets-owners-recommendations


http://rabbitwelfare.co.uk/rabbit-care-advice/rabbit-friendly-vets/rabbit-friendly-vet-list/
 
Hi,

Thanks to the both of you again for the responses.

@joey&boo - The rolling this evening has generally been from when she's tried cleaning herself - with the exception of the vet trip. Otherwise her movement in getting around the conservatory (a.k.a the rabbit den) hasn't been too bad - the more i think of it, the more I believe the stress is a factor. Even when in a confined pace (the carrier) she was rolling and unable to get up, albeit much worse. Given that her bonded partner is abit of big lad as well, I think I'd struggle to hem them in anywhere. I watched her about 30mins ago fall over, but has managed to right herself, hopefully a positive step.

@mightmax, thanks for the info. She's now on day 11 of panacur, although the dosing has varied. Can you recommend how much I should be using per/kg in these circumstances, as opposed to just the general dosing information provided in the leaflet?

It's reassuring to see some support for baytril, I only seemed able to find negative opinions on it when concerning head tilt or ear infections.
 
Hi,

Thanks to the both of you again for the responses.

@joey&boo - The rolling this evening has generally been from when she's tried cleaning herself - with the exception of the vet trip. Otherwise her movement in getting around the conservatory (a.k.a the rabbit den) hasn't been too bad - the more i think of it, the more I believe the stress is a factor. Even when in a confined pace (the carrier) she was rolling and unable to get up, albeit much worse. Given that her bonded partner is abit of big lad as well, I think I'd struggle to hem them in anywhere. I watched her about 30mins ago fall over, but has managed to right herself, hopefully a positive step.

@mightmax, thanks for the info. She's now on day 11 of panacur, although the dosing has varied. Can you recommend how much I should be using per/kg in these circumstances, as opposed to just the general dosing information provided in the leaflet?

It's reassuring to see some support for baytril, I only seemed able to find negative opinions on it when concerning head tilt or ear infections.


I see you are using Panacur granules. I haven't come across these.

I have used Panacur 10% and the vet can give you the correct dosage for the liquid. I do have the correct dosage for that, but it's as you probably have already read.
 
Hi MightyMax :wave:

JK, in what direction were the eyes flickering, horizontally or vertically?

Also, where about do you live? Maybe someone can recommend a more experienced vet for you that isn't so far away. My own vet (who treated my tilt boy) will also happily consult with other vets. There are ways of reducing stress levels for tilty buns when travelling though and to be honest, I think it's worth making the trip. A good rabbit vet will understand that travelling is stressful and won't make you do it more than necessary. Mine was happy to consult over phone/email most of the time :)

As for the rolling now, yes you can get Stemetil but you may need to adjust Dominoes living space temporarily. Feel free to PM me and also join the head tilt group on fb. I'm usually around a lot on there.

Holly
Xxx
 
Hi Roxy,

Fortunately the eye-rolling was only temporary and limited only to the first few hours on the first day, however this meant that we didn't really pay attention to the direction I'm afraid, we were just concentrating on keeping her comfortable and calm. If I had to say, I would steer towards vertical though.

We're in Haslington, nr Crewe, so not a million miles away from yourself. She is an extremely nervy rabbit when it comes to human interaction - we suspect she was abused/neglected when she was young, we adopted her from a rescue after being dumped outside North Staffs hospital. I honestly believe that last night's rolling episode was brought on by the stress of the vet trip, she deteriorated massively as soon as she entered the carrier, before even leaving the house. The rolling seems to have greatly subsided today thankfully - we just need to focus on getting her tilt better.

Consultations via email/phone sound good in that respect, however I'll go and pester the good people of Facebook shortly for advice as well :)

Thanks for your help.
 
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