I would not expect this type of procedure to be carried out on a rabbit other than under a GA. Skin is very elastic and will pull over the wound. I had a slightly larger growth removed from a guinea pig (so a smaller animal) on an area with less loose skin and a more mobile area (ie near a major joint - it was starting to affect her walking). The wound healed well and after a few weeks you couldn't tell that a lump had been removed.
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What is this red object on my bun?
- Thread starter Happy Hopping
- Start date
Happy Hopping
Wise Old Thumper
well, as you have read from the vet comment, we have removed the cancer cell 2 weeks ago. He's saying he need to remove the surrounding area, and would be an "extensive mass removal". I don't know why he said that, because:
1) I thought the remaining tissue is necrotic tissue.
2) as the wound goes, it looks quite good to me,
regardless, how can anyone tell if it's necrotic tissue vs. cancer cell muscle?
1) I thought the remaining tissue is necrotic tissue.
2) as the wound goes, it looks quite good to me,
regardless, how can anyone tell if it's necrotic tissue vs. cancer cell muscle?
I thought you had a biopsy done - so only a small portion of the mass was removed and assessed. Now it has been confirmed as cancerous, the usual course of action would be to remove the whole mass and a reasonable amount of tissue around it - that is to ensure everything visible has all been removed and only healthy tissue remains. Necrotic tissue is dead tissue and looks totally different to healthy tissue. Any other identification would be done by a specialist under a microscope to look at the changes on a cellular level. Your vet an only go on what he / she sees during the operation and is limited by the position of the original mass and the amount of tissue that can realistically be removed from around it.
Again, I cannot give a definative answer because I don't know exactly what the vet said.
I think there might be a bit of misunderstanding.
One possibility is:
You describe an extensive shearing injury. THIS is what would have produced nectrotic (dead) tissue because the shearing force would tear the deep tissues off their blood supply. This would probably involve considerable blood clottiing both under the skin & in deep tissues during and AFTER suture. In the subsequent weeks, the nectrotic tissue would heal but be replaced by stiff fibrous tissue which doesn't stretch much. Fibrotic tissue doesn't have a good blood supply either.
This is the problem to the vet. A sarcoma (malignasnt cancer) will need to be removed with a wide excision well back into non cancerous tissue, but if the surrounding tissue is fibrotic & cannot stretch much the vet can't close the hole. If we don't cut farenough back into non cancerous tissue, the cancer just recurs - usually very quickly.
Another possibility is that the original wound now has very little fibrotic tissue (rabbits can heal much more than humans do) However so much tissue would have to be cut out that there isn't enough surface skin to close the hole without stretching it so far that it would cut off the blood supply to the skin used to close the hole. (This is called suturing under tension) What happens is that the necrotic/dead skin caused by stretching the slin excessively breaks down completely leaving the hole open to infection - a chronic ulcer.
In humans we can use "artificial skin" or more rarely even skin graft in this situation.
I did not realise that your rabbit had an excision biopsy,I thought he had a needle biopsy.
It is very easy to tell the difference between cancerous tissue & fibrotic tissue under the microscope. It is also a test of high accuracy.
As said before I can only comment on the information you give us on this thread & try to understand what MIGHT be happening on that basis. I can only try to clarify why your vet might have said certain things which are difficult to understand.
I'm really sorry to hear your bad news and understand thet very difficult decisions lie ahead for you. Only you really know your rabbit, especially now he is aged 10 & probably has a few issues related to old age by now. I have confidence that you will make the right decision on his behalf
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Happy Hopping
Wise Old Thumper
Assuming the cancer re-occur, what would it look like?
Happy Hopping
Wise Old Thumper
On Dec. 2, I have a chat with my vet, and there are a lot of issues:
1) a lot of cases on cats show that fibrosarcoma keep coming back after it is removed by surgery. Surgery in itself, does not work. It has to go with chemotherapy. But rabbits does not work well with chemotherapy. Although I have read cases in UK that rabbits go thru chemotherapy.
2) With the large area of skin that the fibrosarcoma extends, it goes to all 4 direction and inwards, as such, they would need a "Skin Graft", and even if it works, the fibrosarcoma can still come back.
3) Bobby is a senior bun, he's about 10.5 to 11 yr. old, he may die from that surgery as it's a major surgery and the risk of repeated surgery
4) They can't get an instant view of the tissue under a microscope while in surgery. So the margin is a guess, thus, the risk of repeated surgery
5) The good news is, the root object of fibrosarcoma has been removed 3 weeks ago. So we are simply concerned about the tendrils (surrounding tissue from the root object)
In summary, surgery is not an option. So I have to go w/ alternative cure just like what I did what with Goofball back in 2007. The treatment is much easier with Bobby than with Goofball, because his diet is normal, in fact, very good.
In short, Goofball had bone cancer back in 2007, but after 9 mth. of blackberry diet, the cancer is gone. The condition is virtually the same. With Goofball, the bone cancer was found at her knee, and we removed that knee, but 4 different vets assume the cancer has spread. And in fact, there are signs that the cancer has spread. With Bobby, we did remove that root object, and once again, we assume the cancer may have spread, but there is no sign so far.
With Bobby, I can now give blackberry fruit along w/ a special mixed juice composed of acai berry (non sugar) + non-concentrated blackberry juice. So I'm hoping the same trick will work, in fact, works better than time.
1) a lot of cases on cats show that fibrosarcoma keep coming back after it is removed by surgery. Surgery in itself, does not work. It has to go with chemotherapy. But rabbits does not work well with chemotherapy. Although I have read cases in UK that rabbits go thru chemotherapy.
2) With the large area of skin that the fibrosarcoma extends, it goes to all 4 direction and inwards, as such, they would need a "Skin Graft", and even if it works, the fibrosarcoma can still come back.
3) Bobby is a senior bun, he's about 10.5 to 11 yr. old, he may die from that surgery as it's a major surgery and the risk of repeated surgery
4) They can't get an instant view of the tissue under a microscope while in surgery. So the margin is a guess, thus, the risk of repeated surgery
5) The good news is, the root object of fibrosarcoma has been removed 3 weeks ago. So we are simply concerned about the tendrils (surrounding tissue from the root object)
In summary, surgery is not an option. So I have to go w/ alternative cure just like what I did what with Goofball back in 2007. The treatment is much easier with Bobby than with Goofball, because his diet is normal, in fact, very good.
In short, Goofball had bone cancer back in 2007, but after 9 mth. of blackberry diet, the cancer is gone. The condition is virtually the same. With Goofball, the bone cancer was found at her knee, and we removed that knee, but 4 different vets assume the cancer has spread. And in fact, there are signs that the cancer has spread. With Bobby, we did remove that root object, and once again, we assume the cancer may have spread, but there is no sign so far.
With Bobby, I can now give blackberry fruit along w/ a special mixed juice composed of acai berry (non sugar) + non-concentrated blackberry juice. So I'm hoping the same trick will work, in fact, works better than time.
Happy Hopping
Wise Old Thumper
I have a quick question: anyone knows if skin cancer can cause a rabbit's arm to be "puffy"? Because I don't know if it is cancer related. But when I feel his right arm, there is like a small air bubble inside. Now, he is really irriated by the t-shirt that he's forced to wear. The t-shirt has a band that goes around the arm. So I wonder if that can be the cause. The t-shirt is temporary, it's there to cover the surgery wound, as soon as that sound heals, I'll remove the t-shirt.
Happy Hopping
Wise Old Thumper
well, he keep trying to pull his arm off it. But it's not tight. From experience, I do know that if a band is tight, it can create some loose muscle, which seems to be what's happening now.
Happy Hopping
Wise Old Thumper
so for a lack of a better words, how long does this fibrosarcoma cancer stays "dormant" before it initialize its first strike, i.e., the red tumor on the skin area?
because Bobby had that patch of fur since Feb. 2017. It's about the size of a coin. And it is about 1 inch to the left of that red tumor. At the time, we just bought the fur will eventually grows back. And the missing fur is because of my hand combing of his usual fur shedding in January. So I think nothing of it.
Then because of the fur never grows back, he scratch himself, and we need stitches, and just after that, in Oct. 2017, we see this tumor. Do you people think the inital bald patch of fur is the initial formation of fibrosarcoma?
If so, does it really stays dormant from Feb. till Oct. to strike?
because Bobby had that patch of fur since Feb. 2017. It's about the size of a coin. And it is about 1 inch to the left of that red tumor. At the time, we just bought the fur will eventually grows back. And the missing fur is because of my hand combing of his usual fur shedding in January. So I think nothing of it.
Then because of the fur never grows back, he scratch himself, and we need stitches, and just after that, in Oct. 2017, we see this tumor. Do you people think the inital bald patch of fur is the initial formation of fibrosarcoma?
If so, does it really stays dormant from Feb. till Oct. to strike?
Jack's-Jane
Wise Old Thumper
I honestly dont think it's possible to give an exact timeline regarding progression of the disease process Jason. Here's one study :
Fibrosarcoma
Fibrosarcoma was diagnosed in 7 rabbits and most commonly occurred on the limbs (4). The dermis, panniculus, and subcutis were effaced by a highly cellular proliferation of long interwoven streams of spindle-shaped to elongated, moderately pleomorphic cells. Mitoses averaged 2 per 40× field. Collagen fibers were embedded between neoplastic cells. Frequently, small portions of the neoplasm contained a myxoid background. The neoplasm extended and elevated the mildly hyperplastic epidermis. Follow-up information was received on 4 fibrosarcomas. Tumors recurred 4 months, 5 weeks, and 5.5 months after the surgery, respectively. The first rabbit was euthanatized immediately after the recurrence. The other two animals survived up to 7 months and 9 months after surgery, respectively, and both died for unknown reasons. A fourth rabbit with fibrosarcoma died 2 weeks after the surgery for unknown reasons.
Full text :
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1354/vp.44-5-579
Not sure if you've already seen this
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Cancer/Sarcoma/Fibro/Fibros_en.htm
MightyMax
Banned
Hi Jason,
I have nursed rabbits with fibrosarcoma, and it's very difficult to predict the course it will take.
I think you just have to make the most of every good quality day. I did manage to stave off the inevitable by various means, and it bought us around 6/8 months.
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Happy Hopping
Wise Old Thumper
Jane:
let me clear the air and explain why I post that question. Back 10 yr. ago, Goofball had her bone cancer, and I use blackberry to treat her and it really works well to fight the cancer cells.
http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?t=91411 post No. 92
The blackberry treatment really works for Goofball. Likewise, among the ebooks I gave you, there is a book called Berries and Cancer Prevention from Dr. Stoner, and he's 1 of the doctor that uses blackberry to treat his human patients. Further, I have recommend blackberry treatment to 1 human friend, and it works quite nicely for him.
After Goofball passed away, I have begun to use blackberry as a prevention for my 2 bunnies, as well, I have drink acaiberry/blackberry mix daily.
http://www.antioxidants.org/acai-berries
1 of the extra benefit of Acaiberry is memory improvement.
https://www.davidwolfe.com/acai-berry-health-benefits/
1 year after I drink acaiberry mix, I notice some changes in my brain. When I was at university, I can only remember 2 to 3 things under short term memory. For e.g., walk downstair to grab an orange, and when I am downstair, turn on the dishwasher. As you well know, the reason scientists recommend people to go to university just after high school, is because the peak of a human's brain is at the age of 20 to 26.
Around Aug. 2009, i.e., 1 yr. after I drank acaiberry daily, I was walking downstair and about to do 1 household task. While I was downstair, I said to myself that while I was downstair I should do another household task as well, and then I remind myself of yet another task, in total, 7 individual things were recalled on that incident. And that's when I notice this is something that has never happened before, because I can only recall 2 to 3 things in the past.
In another incident, I was listening to an old MD (Mini Disc) at the gym. And among those songs in the MD, was a song by Shakira. And at the time, I said to myself that I should check if there is any new CD from her, but I forgot about it after I got home. 2 days later, while I was waiting at the traffic light at red, I suddenly recalled that I forgot to check from the library computer whether she has any new CD or not.
So the way I looked at this, is that knowing memory improvement is more of a secondary benefit, and that it clearly is working, I assume that the primary benefit, ie., antioxidant should be working as well for my body
As such, I truly benefit that using blackberry as a prevention, should prohibit any cancer cells from forming. Now, if the cancer were formed back in Feb. 2018, that would mean there is not enough blackberry given to my 2 buns. If so, I would have to give my other bun, Minnie, some acaiberry every 2 days. Bobby is already drinking acaiberry / blackberry mix every 2 hr. That's why I needed to know if those cancer cells some how were at Bobby's body back in Feb. 2018.
Anyhoo, as to the link you gave me: I just want to be clear, when they said "The other
two animals survived up to 7 months and 9 months after surgery, respectively, and both died for
unknown reasons"
are they talking about after the 2nd surgery? or the 1st surgery?
let me clear the air and explain why I post that question. Back 10 yr. ago, Goofball had her bone cancer, and I use blackberry to treat her and it really works well to fight the cancer cells.
http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?t=91411 post No. 92
The blackberry treatment really works for Goofball. Likewise, among the ebooks I gave you, there is a book called Berries and Cancer Prevention from Dr. Stoner, and he's 1 of the doctor that uses blackberry to treat his human patients. Further, I have recommend blackberry treatment to 1 human friend, and it works quite nicely for him.
After Goofball passed away, I have begun to use blackberry as a prevention for my 2 bunnies, as well, I have drink acaiberry/blackberry mix daily.
http://www.antioxidants.org/acai-berries
1 of the extra benefit of Acaiberry is memory improvement.
https://www.davidwolfe.com/acai-berry-health-benefits/
1 year after I drink acaiberry mix, I notice some changes in my brain. When I was at university, I can only remember 2 to 3 things under short term memory. For e.g., walk downstair to grab an orange, and when I am downstair, turn on the dishwasher. As you well know, the reason scientists recommend people to go to university just after high school, is because the peak of a human's brain is at the age of 20 to 26.
Around Aug. 2009, i.e., 1 yr. after I drank acaiberry daily, I was walking downstair and about to do 1 household task. While I was downstair, I said to myself that while I was downstair I should do another household task as well, and then I remind myself of yet another task, in total, 7 individual things were recalled on that incident. And that's when I notice this is something that has never happened before, because I can only recall 2 to 3 things in the past.
In another incident, I was listening to an old MD (Mini Disc) at the gym. And among those songs in the MD, was a song by Shakira. And at the time, I said to myself that I should check if there is any new CD from her, but I forgot about it after I got home. 2 days later, while I was waiting at the traffic light at red, I suddenly recalled that I forgot to check from the library computer whether she has any new CD or not.
So the way I looked at this, is that knowing memory improvement is more of a secondary benefit, and that it clearly is working, I assume that the primary benefit, ie., antioxidant should be working as well for my body
As such, I truly benefit that using blackberry as a prevention, should prohibit any cancer cells from forming. Now, if the cancer were formed back in Feb. 2018, that would mean there is not enough blackberry given to my 2 buns. If so, I would have to give my other bun, Minnie, some acaiberry every 2 days. Bobby is already drinking acaiberry / blackberry mix every 2 hr. That's why I needed to know if those cancer cells some how were at Bobby's body back in Feb. 2018.
Anyhoo, as to the link you gave me: I just want to be clear, when they said "The other
two animals survived up to 7 months and 9 months after surgery, respectively, and both died for
unknown reasons"
are they talking about after the 2nd surgery? or the 1st surgery?
Jack's-Jane
Wise Old Thumper
I remember Goofball
I'm not qualified to have an opinion on the potential efficacy of Blackberry Juice as being a 'preventative' for the formation of cancer cells. Personally I doubt that it can as if it were that effective surely we'd no longer have Cancer as a disease process in both humans and animals. That said, I firmly believe that as long as no harm will be done then if an individual believes that an 'Alternative' treatment helps then why not use it. My concern is only when some people may be persuaded to abandon all conventional medical treatment in favour of a 'natural alternative' approach. I apply those concerns to both human treatment and that of animals. Having witnessed first hand the tragic consequences of a person being persuaded to treat her Rabbits with a 'natural' preventative to RHD rather than having them vaccinated with the conventional and licensed vaccine and her subsequently losing numerous Rabbits to the disease it is something I feel very strongly about. I am not suggesting that you have turned your back on conventional medicine though, I know you use both
Re the link, I read it as the survival after the second surgery.
MightyMax
Banned
I think we have a lot more in our armoury than we can ever know. Those that focus purely on conventional meds and poo-poo anything else are cutting off their nose to spite their face :lol:
It's a shame that some people can't accept that there's more to medicine than mere drugs, but that's the common way of things I guess.
I am glad you are able to explore some avenues when others are closed to you. And very good luck to you too
Happy Hopping
Wise Old Thumper
so here's an update:
1) I finally found that satellite tumor at the same spot as the old, removed tumor. It's soft and stay underneath the skin if his muscle is not tense. It's slightly surface if his muscle is stretched or tight.
It's about a peanut to possibly 2 peanut size. It's more of a circular object.
2) Bobby is not in any pain and doesn't require any pain killer and his diet is excellent
3) all these acaiberry / blackberry doesn't seems to kill that satellite tumor. However, it's possible it stop that tumor from spreading.
=============
Jane:
a) where's the white paper that refers to the comment that it is rare for fibersaroma to spread
b) if this tumor surface, remove it again?
c) on unrelated matter, on p.580 of that article, it says there is "Viral-induced Tumors". I thought cancer is abnormal cell formation, so how can there be virus that induce it?
1) I finally found that satellite tumor at the same spot as the old, removed tumor. It's soft and stay underneath the skin if his muscle is not tense. It's slightly surface if his muscle is stretched or tight.
It's about a peanut to possibly 2 peanut size. It's more of a circular object.
2) Bobby is not in any pain and doesn't require any pain killer and his diet is excellent
3) all these acaiberry / blackberry doesn't seems to kill that satellite tumor. However, it's possible it stop that tumor from spreading.
=============
Jane:
a) where's the white paper that refers to the comment that it is rare for fibersaroma to spread
b) if this tumor surface, remove it again?
c) on unrelated matter, on p.580 of that article, it says there is "Viral-induced Tumors". I thought cancer is abnormal cell formation, so how can there be virus that induce it?
MightyMax
Banned
My advice is probably of no worth to you, but in my vet's experience fibrosarcoma does spread, and that has certainly been my experience.
Happy Hopping
Wise Old Thumper
the only thing I forgot to mention on the above is that when I push that tumor today, it seems quite soft when his muscle is not tense. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing
Jack's-Jane
Wise Old Thumper
I will try and route out some more information about fibrosarcomas, but some may be from Copyright protected sources so I wont be able to post them on an open Forum. I may be able to email them to you though.
I really do not feel qualified to comment specifically about more surgery for your Rabbit. There are so many factors to take into account including the actual type of Fibrosarcoma involved. From the images you have posted it does not seem that there would be enough healthy tissue remaining to allow wound closure after surgery. So skin grafts may be necessary too. But that is just my unqualified thoughts Jason.
Some tumour cells may be found to include Myxoma Virus amongst others. So it might be a case that some Fibrosarcomas initially develop after viral infiltration of cells which then cause abnormal cell division. For example in Cats there is the Feline Sarcoma Virus
http://www.natvetlab.com/PDF/(6)FeSVJAAHA17,981,1981.pdf
Again, all unqualified thoughts from me.
Happy Hopping
Wise Old Thumper
sure, if you have anything you like, you can email me, I'll PM you w/ my email addr.
Speaking of cat, when I write about Bobby's cancer on my facebook wall, a friend from France has a cat that also had the same cancer. They removed the tumor, then the satellite tumor comes back. Then the cat lives a healthy 2 yr. Then around the 25th mth., the tumor surfaces again, now somehow that French vet told them not to remove the regrowth of the cancer, and they just let it burst. About the 27th mth., the cat passed away.
Anyhoo, a quick question, in general for human or animals, if a tumor is soft, and said it was hard prior, what does that mean?
Speaking of cat, when I write about Bobby's cancer on my facebook wall, a friend from France has a cat that also had the same cancer. They removed the tumor, then the satellite tumor comes back. Then the cat lives a healthy 2 yr. Then around the 25th mth., the tumor surfaces again, now somehow that French vet told them not to remove the regrowth of the cancer, and they just let it burst. About the 27th mth., the cat passed away.
Anyhoo, a quick question, in general for human or animals, if a tumor is soft, and said it was hard prior, what does that mean?
