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U/D time to stop // Bonding, day #3 - ideas desperately needed (please!)!

Squishies

Warren Scout
Hi again everyone,

Apologies for the second thread, but I thought it better to get ideas on this separately...

I am on day #3 of attempting to bond my 2 mini-lops (m/f 3yr old sibling pair that I have had since kits and were previously a trio with their brother), with my 1 yr old Netherland Dwarf male. All are neutered/spayed and in good health.

They are in a pen in my living room with sheets pegged around it to try to disguise that they are somewhere they have all been in before.
Very little happened for the first 36 hours, mostly the buns ignored each other, with the minis flopped out together and the nethie focused on escaping back to me (he has been living in the house with me for 4 months and I think is confused at whether he is human/my mate - he even jumped the metre high sides twice so we had to peg another duvet cover over the top).

I have tried to step back and let them get on with it in case my presence and bond with the nethie is distracting things, but it's as if all 3 are just sat waiting to be released back to their respective homes.
We tried reducing the space/keeping them tight in together to encourage interaction, but it has remained quite ambivalent for most of the time.

I think all 3 have worked out where they are, but that didn't really set them off. Mostly they sit in separate areas of the pen, avoiding conflict.
Come late afternoon/early evening they get frustrated with the lack of space and stimulation and I get some scrapping between the boys, particularly over space in the litter box and then this escalates as the evening goes on. The male mini-lop barges the nethie anytime he comes close, like a warning of 'I will box you if you try anything'. The nethie drops his head but no grooming really comes from either side.

So basically I have 'stalemate' with some scrapping overnight - I am exhausted and desperate not to give up too soon, so I am looking for ideas on what to try next!
- I could get in the pen and physically push them together/stroke them all in a bundle together, but I am concerned that this will confuse the nethie even more and will delay them 'working it out'?
- I could make the pen bigger or smaller (although it's pretty tiny - 6 sides of a puppy pen, and I feel mean doing that)
- help!!!

As ever, any ideas are good ideas - I want the best for the buns, and I know that all bunnies are different, but I am approaching my breaking point and don't know what to try.

x x
 
Day 3 is very early days. A bit of fur pulling is normal, as is a stalemate situation. As long as there is no 'proper' fighting (ie drawing blood), I would leave the space etc as it is for a week, then re-assess, with the potential for giving them more space. They have to get used to each other and their new living arrangements. They need time to develop a new heirarchy as well. The worst bit is the waiting, but it is worth it. Don't panic and leave them to it unless it is causing physical damage to one of them. You won't mistake a bit of fur pulling for a full-on fight where they are locked together. If you keep changing their space every day or so, it will unsettle them more.

Make sure they all have access to food, water and shelter - then leave them alone and let them sort themselves out.
 
I agree it is early days. Do they eat together? I found feeding huge piles of forage worked a treat for mine, got them sharing a happy, normal rabbity experience
 
Thanks both for your lovely reassurances - I watched some bonding videos online this afternoon and got so confused with all the different approaches:
- some people put shelter and toys in; others say have no distractions/nothing for the bunnies to own
- some people interact with the rabbits, stroking them side by side; others say to not interfere as this will confuse them
...it's a minefield!

Shimmer, that makes complete sense - I need to be patient and trust myself that unless it is full on fighting, I am ok to let them continue. I still think also that I am a distraction, and as you say, I should try to leave them to it without re-altering the space!

Joey&Boo, thanks also - yes, originally they were all eating happily together, heads touching around a big pile of stuff, but now my male mini-lop has started to get territorial over everything, and so barges the little on out the way of the food pile.

it's so hard to tell, particularly when I'm so tired after two sleepless nights with them; my buns are certainly not showing the same active aggression as in the 'failed bonding attempt' videos suggested in the other thread, but what I currently have is a very grumpy male mini-lop that is guarding food, the litter box, and getting angry if the other two interact. Very frustrating indeed!

Please keep the ideas coming - I need all the help and positivity right now!

x x
 
it is a minefield - i ended up breaking all the rules & going with what felt right . I guess I'm trying to say follow your instincts. I stroked mine during bonding & for us it worked. To this day when either of us crouch on the floor they'll rush up & smooch up together waiting for us to adore them with strokes. Unless they sit just right I'm often a hand short though :lol:

Sure bonding is interesting but it is emotionally really hard work. Maybe you should separate & get a good nights kip? It doesn't sound like they are going to be all loved up anytime real soon . Have patience & faith though. It could be going a lot, lot worse x
 
Te he, yes, I should be grateful for the musical statues that I currently have going on (rabbits in separate spots, a quick scuffle and then quiet again!) could be way more aggressive and worse. You're so right on the emotional exhaustion part too... it was so tempting to give up and put them back in their respective homes this afternoon, just to be able to go to bed for a bit!

I may try the stroking technique as my next step if nothing changes, poor little nethie is very lonely hiding in the litter box, and when my girl mini gives him any attention the male mini barges them both - sigh. Only difference for me, is that once bonded, I'd be wanting to put them all back out in the (neutralised) aviary; so they will no longer be in the house with me around for strokes/when I'm back at work I won't be on hand to give soothing strokes when anything happens. Let alone be on hand having grown a third hand for trio stroking! ;-)

But yes, they don't look like they're going to sort this any time quickly - naughty (lovely) little things, don't they realise I am trying to do this for them and that I need to get back to normality at some point?! ;-)

I do like the idea of a decent night's kip, oh yes... It would be good if they gave me a (safe!) signal of what they would like, so I knew what to do!
...I'm guessing that if I separated them, even just overnight, I'd have to re-start the bonding process pretty much from scratch again if and when I put them back together though?

Thanks a million for posting back -- just to know that others have been through similar (and similar confusion with the conflicting guidance out there) helps reassure that I'm not entirely losing the plot just yet!

x x
 
I wouldn't separate them - they are going through perfectly normal settling in. Every time you change something, they are reacting to it and having to start again - and it's causing more stress and disruption. They need to be able to sort themselves out without constant changes being imposed and upsetting them. Hang on in there. They are doing fine, and you can't push them into it any faster than they are ready to take it - but you could undo any bonding that has gone on.

If you get some sleep, you may see them in a different light as well. Trios are lovely when they have settled together.

Can you sleep somewhere comfortably but still hear if there is any major scuffle? A baby monitor could be useful so you could see / hear them from another room.
 
I'm in the 'don't put anything in' camp usually:) Then there is nothing to fight over. But as Shimmer says it is early days still. My last trio bond seemed to take ages but only because I purposely took it slow as I really needed it to work.
It sounds like your little lop wants to be the boss :D Keep us posted x
 
Thanks Shimmer, thank you BunSlave : )
Day #5 Update!

No fights overnight so I have had a few more hours sleep and will be able to see how things go today, hopefully with a bit more perspective.

They are still sat at separate sides of the pen, and I am having to basically feed them piles in separate areas - even scattering the food around the pen didn't work, as Mr Mini-lop went round hoovering it up and pushing everyone out the way. I even had to slip the other two some food through the bars. Quite apart from anything else he is going to get mega-fat!

Mr Mini-lop, either, as you say, wants to be the boss, or, is just voicing some sort of extreme outrage at the situation it seems! :roll:
He is even guarding the water bowl (which he doesn't use; the minis use a bottle) from the little one : (

BunSlave, just so I can understand your experience better - when you say you purposely took things slow, do you mean you had lots of separate sessions, or you just had them together in a pen for several weeks?

...Let's see how today goes, I will update later!
Thanks again for your reassurances, support and advice - it really does help me x x
 
Glad you managed some sleep and it was quiet overnight. :D
I'm not a fan of separate sessions although some have no choice. Mine were in a small pen for 48hours before increasing space gradually once I was satisfied there would be no trouble. They were 10 days before they got full room space.
Each bond can vary so much dependant on the buns temperaments. One of mine is deaf and very timid so this had to be taken into account too.
Keep it up :thumb:
 
Thanks BunSlave!

Which one of your little ones is deaf, and how did you find out?
...did you have many squabbles and scraps? I may be misreading mine, but it doesn't seem that they squabble enough to ever establish the hierarchy - when something starts the other side backs away to a separate spot, so it never really gets dealt with.

That makes complete sense re: small pen gradually increasing -- indeed that was the original plan here! Sadly, my non-conformist rabbits don't seem to be bothered by the space (big or small), they, currently at least, have no interest in settling the pecking order and would rather loaf without confrontation!

...even if they never snuggle up in a loved-up pile, I'd like them at least to be able to sit together peacefully. Come on bunnies, you can do it...!
 
Just to update everyone, I had to call time on the bonding attempt this afternoon as the boys had a scrap and when I checked them over I found lots of little nicks and cuts on the little nethie, hidden under his fur :cry:

...poor little mite, he's such a bouncy bunny (i.e. he wasn't moping) that I didn't realise that he was being scratched/bitten.
I know some folks would persist if there was no real damage, but I really don't want to risk injury to any of the bunnies.
I'm gutted and feel terrible for putting them through any stress... I took him immediately to the vets for a once over and he reassured that it was surface layer only; and we have course of precautionary antibiotics.

Currently spoiling him rotten and he has jumped up and sat in the middle of my bed (they are not usually allowed in my bedroom!) where he is lording it up.
Poor little monkey! I now need to come up with a plan to be able to keep all the buns without having my house taken over - the mini lops will go back in the aviary, and he will go back in the lounge while I make a plan -- any inspiration gratefully received!!

x x
 
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