Advice on bonding please

I'm new to this forum - my apologies if I ask questions that may have already been answered by other experts. My bunny situation is this: - I had 2 beautiful adored buns - Ben and Georgina. Georgina is the white bun in my avitar, Ben the brown bun. Both were rescued but from different backgrounds. Georgina's journey was different to Bens. She had a bit of an independant streak. Ben is as soft and placid and gentle as you could ever imagine. He is so caring and loving and licks everyone. He doesn't have a bad or aggressive bone in his bunny body. We bonded them 3 years ago and it took about a week. They have spent the last 3 years together in bunny bliss. He adored Georgina and loved every days she shared his life. Ben has been done and we got Georgina spayed when we rescued her about 4 years ago. Georgina developed arthritis in her hind hock at the start of the year and despite my best intensive efforts and daily pain medication, we sadly lost her 2 weeks ago. She was about 7/8 years old. This hit us hard but also hit Ben. The vet wanted to put Georgina to sleep a week before she passed but we wanted Georgina to spend the last few days of her life with Ben because of the bond they had. We knew Georgina was dying - I could just tell. We decided to try to find a new partner for Ben because he has always been so happy with companionship from Georgina. So we got a rescue bun from a centre a few days ago. She is a younger bun - about 2 years old and from what we know, was deliberately malnourished by her former owner. She seemed to be a placid girl and we felt she would be a good partner for Ben. We gave her a couple of days in an indoor hutch just to adjust to her new life and to settle. We began to introduce Ben and Lillian on saturday in our large garden. Lillian was making all the right body languages - she was binking and seemed very happy. Ben showed interest and the two seemed content to follow each other round and Lillian sat next to ben and they showed signs of affection. Ben licked Lillians face and all seemed positive. We kept them apart that night and repeated the introduction on Sunday. Lillian seemed to look for Ben and when we let him out, they seemed happy. After about an hour, the 2 bunnies began to fight - I have no idea what started it or why. They were leaping and trying to circle and attempt to scratch. We seperated and put Ben in his hutch and Lillian in hers. We checked for injuries but there were none other than alot of fur. This was very out of character for Ben as he was never ever ever showed any sign of aggression at all. Tonight I let them out in the garden again and after brief face to face interaction between them, they both followed each other up the garden and then after a short time a fight broke out again. I can't find the trigger for it. Ben has been neutered and has never mounted his old parthner Georgina. Lillian hasn't been spayed. The fight starts with nipping and interest in the rear end of each rabbit. We've cuddled Ben and he seems fine - laid back and chilled as usual. He just licks our hands. I handled Lillian tonight and it's clear she isn't used to being handled. She tries to climb up my shoulder and when I settled her on my lap, she is so rigid. Her eyes are like huge saucers and her body is just tense. I tried gentle stroking for half an hour but she is just so un-relaxed. After half an hour of soft stroking, Lillian was panting hard and almost shaking. She's back in her cage where she is eating and lying down and seems 'relaxed'. I fear that Lillian has suffered some significant trauma with her previous owner but obviously she can't tell me and I don't know what it is. I don't want to give up on her because I would love to give her the loving home she needs and she would have here. But I don't wish to bring harm and trauma to Ben who is still grieving about his loss and who still has love to give and share. But I can't bond them at the moment because I don't know what the trigger is. I don't want to have to take Lillian back to the rescue place - I would consider that a failure on my part and I would be letting Lillian down but I don't know why she is so traumatised. What can I do to help and given the episodes of fighting when I've allowed Ben and Georgina in the garden together, I can't really put both buns through a bonding process when they don't seem to get along. I could try a neutral place in the house for short periods but I know Ben but I am concerned about Lillian and why she is so traumatised. Any advice would be very much appreciated.

Craig 1965 said:

I'm new to this forum - my apologies if I ask questions that may have already been answered by other experts. My bunny situation is this: - I had 2 beautiful adored buns - Ben and Georgina. Georgina is the white bun in my avitar, Ben the brown bun. Both were rescued but from different backgrounds. Georgina's journey was different to Bens. She had a bit of an independant streak. Ben is as soft and placid and gentle as you could ever imagine. He is so caring and loving and licks everyone. He doesn't have a bad or aggressive bone in his bunny body. We bonded them 3 years ago and it took about a week. They have spent the last 3 years together in bunny bliss. He adored Georgina and loved every days she shared his life. Ben has been done and we got Georgina spayed when we rescued her about 4 years ago. Georgina developed arthritis in her hind hock at the start of the year and despite my best intensive efforts and daily pain medication, we sadly lost her 2 weeks ago. She was about 7/8 years old. This hit us hard but also hit Ben. The vet wanted to put Georgina to sleep a week before she passed but we wanted Georgina to spend the last few days of her life with Ben because of the bond they had. We knew Georgina was dying - I could just tell. We decided to try to find a new partner for Ben because he has always been so happy with companionship from Georgina. So we got a rescue bun from a centre a few days ago. She is a younger bun - about 2 years old and from what we know, was deliberately malnourished by her former owner. She seemed to be a placid girl and we felt she would be a good partner for Ben. We gave her a couple of days in an indoor hutch just to adjust to her new life and to settle. We began to introduce Ben and Lillian on saturday in our large garden. Lillian was making all the right body languages - she was binking and seemed very happy. Ben showed interest and the two seemed content to follow each other round and Lillian sat next to ben and they showed signs of affection. Ben licked Lillians face and all seemed positive. We kept them apart that night and repeated the introduction on Sunday. Lillian seemed to look for Ben and when we let him out, they seemed happy. After about an hour, the 2 bunnies began to fight - I have no idea what started it or why. They were leaping and trying to circle and attempt to scratch. We seperated and put Ben in his hutch and Lillian in hers. We checked for injuries but there were none other than alot of fur. This was very out of character for Ben as he was never ever ever showed any sign of aggression at all. Tonight I let them out in the garden again and after brief face to face interaction between them, they both followed each other up the garden and then after a short time a fight broke out again. I can't find the trigger for it. Ben has been neutered and has never mounted his old parthner Georgina. Lillian hasn't been spayed. The fight starts with nipping and interest in the rear end of each rabbit. We've cuddled Ben and he seems fine - laid back and chilled as usual. He just licks our hands. I handled Lillian tonight and it's clear she isn't used to being handled. She tries to climb up my shoulder and when I settled her on my lap, she is so rigid. Her eyes are like huge saucers and her body is just tense. I tried gentle stroking for half an hour but she is just so un-relaxed. After half an hour of soft stroking, Lillian was panting hard and almost shaking. She's back in her cage where she is eating and lying down and seems 'relaxed'. I fear that Lillian has suffered some significant trauma with her previous owner but obviously she can't tell me and I don't know what it is. I don't want to give up on her because I would love to give her the loving home she needs and she would have here. But I don't wish to bring harm and trauma to Ben who is still grieving about his loss and who still has love to give and share. But I can't bond them at the moment because I don't know what the trigger is. I don't want to have to take Lillian back to the rescue place - I would consider that a failure on my part and I would be letting Lillian down but I don't know why she is so traumatised. What can I do to help and given the episodes of fighting when I've allowed Ben and Georgina in the garden together, I can't really put both buns through a bonding process when they don't seem to get along. I could try a neutral place in the house for short periods but I know Ben but I am concerned about Lillian and why she is so traumatised. Any advice would be very much appreciated.

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Hi there Craig and welcome to the Forum:wave:

I do a lot of bonding for people on the Forum, both on the phone and in person. However just now and for lack of time, I am going to give you a load of (possibly) helpful links. I hope you might find something useful there.

There are also lots of people who will help with your bonding, and I shall leave it to them for now to assist you.

I'm sorry I can't give a more personal answer to your dilemma.


http://rabbit.org/the-most-important-word-in-bonding-is-patience/

http://rabbit.org/introducing-rabbits-in-a-group-situation/

http://www.cottontails-rescue.org.uk/information/bonding-bunnies/ (good for pair bonding)

http://www.fatfluffs.com/info/bonding/

http://www.actionforrabbits.co.uk/bonding.html

http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/s...How-I-do-rabbit-bonding&p=6934868#post6934868


Book in RWAF shop:

https://shop.rabbitwelfare.co.uk/product/bonding-rabbits-by-fiona-campbell/


Mischief and Tinker’s Mum
http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?462466-How-I-bonded-my-trios-videos!

Dear Mighty Max - thank you so very much for taking the time to respond. I can't thank you enough. By the way, your avitar reminds me of a dear old english bun I had back in my childhood who was a real character. Reading the links you kindly sent me, I am drawing the conclusion (based also on my observations during the buns initial meetings) that potentially the way forward for me in this situation is to consider spaying Lillian. We did have Georgina Spayed when we rescued her but that was a decision based largely on the fact that at the time, we had a rescue male who we found wondering the street where we live (which is how we began looking after rabbits) and he was not neutered. Sadly a few weeks after Georgina was spayed, the male died and we couldn't start the bonding. We were fortunate with Ben because he has been neutered and he is so unbelievably chilled. The fact he seems to be deliberately smellling Lillians abdomen and rear end area (which he never ever did with Georgina) links almost directly with one of the articles you sent me. Since they have a highly developed sense of smell, perhaps he can smell hormones and stuff from Lillian and that is interfering with things. We've only had Lillian for 4 or 5 days now and since she is an extremely nervous bun and I am sure she has had such an awful experience with her previous owner. I am wary not to put her through more stress and anxiety so quickly after adopting her, but I also understand that it is in her best interests to be spayed for health reasons and according to the links, could also help because she won't have the same hormones and scents once spayed. This makes sense. As I said, I am resistant to return her to the rescue centre because for me personally I would consider that as a failure on my part and I know she will have a safe and happy life here. And that is the most important thing for all pets and they have the right to that - and it is my responsibility as a pet owner to provide that. If anyone has any other views on what I can do in the meantime before going down the spayed route, I would appreciate them, but again, thank you Mighty Max because your advice and direction has been so helpful and I am grateful to you.

I don't know much about bonding compared to a lot of the members on this forum, being a relatively new bunny owner myself, but I'm about to bond my pair so have been reading up a lot on it. I've also read from a lot of sources that if both rabbits aren't spayed/neutered, the hormonal factor can still play a part. My girl Beatrice was spayed a couple of weeks ago and apparently it's also a very good idea to reduce the high chances of cancer a doe can get if she doesn't have the operation.

It might be worth looking into getting her spayed before you try to reintroduce them, and once she's recovered from the operation you could try again. Regarding the nervousness, I'm sure after several months of getting to know you she'll feel safer and more relaxed. My Beatrice is also quite skittish comapred to her partner to be (Ham) who is the complete opposite - I'm hoping that once they're living together she'll pick up from him not to be fearful of us.

I hope that helps somewhat and good luck

I am sorry this is brief but she is possibly displaying fear/aggression. You perhaps need to gain her trust first and then go slowly, preferably after she has been spayed, with the bonding. One word of warning, don't allow her too much space in the garden as she could become territorial over it. I wish you luck with these 2 rabbits.

Hi Craig. It sounds like you already have it sorted that the safest route to a successful bond would be to get Lilian spayed. This will obviously take more time - and patience. If you are worried about Ben being lonely is there a way you can house them so they are in sight if each other? You could use this time to get to know Lilian. She may or may not have had a traumatic past but if she grows to feel secure with you, she will feel better. I've only ever had one rabbit that was happy to sit on my lap and that was because we had him from being very young. Spend time on the floor with her, try hand feeding and avoid picking her up except for essential stuff. She will learn to trust you. It is so rewarding when after what seems ages a rabbit that would not be touched without freezing in fear or running off sits happily for a nose rub. All the best x

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Craig 1965 said:

Dear Mighty Max - thank you so very much for taking the time to respond. I can't thank you enough. By the way, your avitar reminds me of a dear old english bun I had back in my childhood who was a real character. Reading the links you kindly sent me, I am drawing the conclusion (based also on my observations during the buns initial meetings) that potentially the way forward for me in this situation is to consider spaying Lillian. We did have Georgina Spayed when we rescued her but that was a decision based largely on the fact that at the time, we had a rescue male who we found wondering the street where we live (which is how we began looking after rabbits) and he was not neutered. Sadly a few weeks after Georgina was spayed, the male died and we couldn't start the bonding. We were fortunate with Ben because he has been neutered and he is so unbelievably chilled. The fact he seems to be deliberately smellling Lillians abdomen and rear end area (which he never ever did with Georgina) links almost directly with one of the articles you sent me. Since they have a highly developed sense of smell, perhaps he can smell hormones and stuff from Lillian and that is interfering with things. We've only had Lillian for 4 or 5 days now and since she is an extremely nervous bun and I am sure she has had such an awful experience with her previous owner. I am wary not to put her through more stress and anxiety so quickly after adopting her, but I also understand that it is in her best interests to be spayed for health reasons and according to the links, could also help because she won't have the same hormones and scents once spayed. This makes sense. As I said, I am resistant to return her to the rescue centre because for me personally I would consider that as a failure on my part and I know she will have a safe and happy life here. And that is the most important thing for all pets and they have the right to that - and it is my responsibility as a pet owner to provide that. If anyone has any other views on what I can do in the meantime before going down the spayed route, I would appreciate them, but again, thank you Mighty Max because your advice and direction has been so helpful and I am grateful to you.

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Thank you Craig, you are so welcome and I am glad the advice I provided was of use

Yes, Max was indeed a Mighty force in my life and in my Avatar. He guides me still, though he left some time ago. He sounds like your childhood friend

You are a very kind person to have such compassion for your rabbits and to want a good life for them. I'm sure you'll have her spayed when the time seems right.

Some useful info, if you've not seen it already:

http://www.rabbitwelfare.co.uk/pdfs/neutering28807.pdf

https://rabbitwelfare.co.uk/rabbit-health/neutering/



Best wishes for a happy and contented life with your rabbits

Thank you all of you who took the time and thoughtfulness to respond to my query. At times, I have felt quite lonely about my plight and it is heart warming to have the help and guidance of all you wonderful kind rabbit lovers. If I may expand a little and give you all some further reading - I first 'found' rabbits by accident about 8 or 9 years ago when we found a stray rabbit in our street. We had guinea pigs at the time and I felt we could provide a safe and loving home for this young buck. He became very much part of our family and had a wonderful personality. We moved house and we rescued Georgina not long after and she had not had a good life being kept in a small cage with 3 very active and very large dogs. We had her spayed and began to start the bonding process with Max but he sadly died - I don't know why but I assume old age. We then rescued a young buck who had a troubled past and was extremely possessive with food and fought with his siblings. My wife and I both bear scars of very very deep bites inflicted by this young buck but he bonded of sorts with Georgina. We sadly lost him after 18 months to VHD we suspect as he was only about 3 and it was all very quick. We then rescued Ben who has such an unbelievable laid back personality and within a few days Georgina and Ben bonded so tightly it was just beautiful. He adored her and looked after her and they were unbelievably happy. Ben doesn't mind being held but adores strokes and head massages - believe it or not. He manipulates me with his feeding routine and drinking and I love the way he does that. He is the most unviolent and un aggresive rabbit you could possibly imagine. When we lost Georgina 2 weeks ago, Ben was understandibly upset and I've carefully monitored his behavior. he has a soft toy rabbit which has been in the hutch for a couple of years so that keeps him some company and it probably has Georgina's scent on it. I believe he must retain memory of his life with Georgina in the same way we would. He is absolutley entitled to have that feeling and I respect that in him. We adopted Lillian last week and had a brief of her past owner who deliberately starved the rabbits she had and also dehydrated them. Lillian is a lop - about 2 years old we think. She doesn't settle well when you hold her - she climbs to get over the shoulder. Her eyes are almost always wide like saucers and her body feels tense constantly. She eats well and we ensure she has access to good quality fresh food and greens and hay. She is in an indoor cage with a box and a small furry toy to keep her a bit of company. When she was in the garden on saturday, she was binking and relaxed and totally happy. She was lying next to Ben and gave all the signs of being very contented. A day later, it all went pear shaped. I've checked both buns and Ben has a wound that has begun to heal which is probably a result of a claw rather than teeth as there is no matching wound. Lillian also has a similar scratch type wound - clearly as a result of the scuffle on Sunday which we intercepted but there was quite a bit of fur on the garden. This is totally out of character of Ben. Observations? Ben began to lick Lillians head and she seemed ok with this. There was submissive body posture by Lillian and also Ben by way of lowering head. But then they begin to circle and look to smell the abdominal region and rear end and that is where it seems to kick off. When we let Lillian out, she seems to know that Ben is (or has been) in the garden and looks for him by going to the places she saw him. She's made a very good memory map of the garden. I feel deflated because I was doing what I thought was right for Ben and rabbits do need companionship. The last thing he needs is aggro and harm when he has lost his soul mate. But he is also very much a loving bun and gentle. But something is pushing his buttons and I do not want him hurt physically or emotionally. So I spend time with him. At the same time, I would like to give Lillian the life and home she deserves and would like to achieve a bond. I don't know if either bun can forgive each other for the fights. Lillian very much shys away from us and won't let us hand feed - although it's only been 5 days. I don't expect her to trust us. That must be earned. She doesn't show aggression towards us when we put food in despite her previous owners alleged treatment. In my opinion she is still under weight and you can see from looking at her from behind that she hasn't got great muscle tone yet. I have spent alot of time reading and researching about rabbits and bonding and I love learning about them, watching them and just enjoying their personalities. I don't wish to stress Lillian any further but I feel she does need daily handling and just sitting stroking and holding her. But she is incredibly tense and nervous and she pants rapidly and shakes after about half an hour. Goodness knows what she has been subject to but I am so annoyed that someone can do this to such a wonderful harmless animal. It would seem that the general consensus is to get her spayed but I don't know how soon to do that because she only came out of the rescue centre last week and she's had massive upheaval so I have to consider her emotional well being as well. But perhaps if she is spayed then it would calm things down? I just don't know. Again, thank you to everyone for your guidance and please feel free to pass any more thoughts my way because I would dearly like this to have a positive and happy ending for both rabbits. Thank you all.

Hi Craig and welcome to the forum [emoji3] You've been given excellent advice above so the only thing I would reiterate is that having both buns neutered and neutral space for bonding are what I would consider the two keys to a successful bond. The only other thing I would add, by way of encouragement, is that the fact they have fought doesn't mean their bond is doomed to fail. My bonded pair have had a couple of pretty ferocious fights but both times they have gotten over it and were once again inseparable friends. I like to think of them now as the Burton and Taylor of the rabbit world! I would also take hope from the fact their first meeting went well.

Lillian sounds a lot like my doe Fudgie. When I first adopted her she was very wary of me. It did take a long time but she eventually came to trust me. I found it helped to go very slowly and do everything on her terms. Her husbun Snoopy is more confident around humans and I think he helped bring her out of her shell. I think with nervous buns having another rabbit friend helps them feel safer and more secure.

Good luck with your buns. It sounds like they have a wonderful home with you. [emoji3]


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Thank you again for more very helpful and well appreciated advice. Having just spent the last hour observing Lillian in her cage, I suddenly realised exactly how and to what extent Lillian had been mis-treated with her former keeper. We were told she was deliberately malnourished and dehydrated. And observing her body language, I think I know why. I am fairly confident that what happened was this : - her former owner would approach her with food - a cabbage leaf or whatever, and show it to her, teasing her forward and then withdrawing it without Lillian getting any of it. This was repeated in a deliberate tease situation. Lillians body language to me indicates this is how she feels about trust and food. She won't approach either my wife or I when we hold food because in Lillians memory, she believes we will take the food away. This explains her waryness and anxiety and why she is so untrusting and scared. When I open the covers on her cage in the morning, her food bowl is literally licked clean and there's not a morsel of food left from the previous night. I just wish I could read her memories and see just how bad her memories are and I wish I could erase them for her. I am very much a believer in emotional respect for animals and they are entitled to the same respect as we are. They think and therefore by definition, they create and form memories and feelings and it's important to respect those and nurture them. It is upsetting for me when I have a situation where a grieving bun is placed in harm - albeit inadvertantly as my intentions were for the better, not worse, and I was also hoping to give another bun (Lillian) a loving caring environment so she could be safe and enjoy life - and that is still my aim. I dismiss the option of giving up on her as it is not right on her. She isn't deliberately behaving this way out of some deep rooted hatred - in my opinion. She's just traumatised. And at the same time I have to think of Ben and his welfare and wellbeing. He is a one in a million find and enjoys companionship so it's also important to get the right result for both Ben and Lillian. I am truly grateful to you all for the continued advice and I will update you on how things develop. Thank you all so much