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Thread: EC

  1. #1
    Warren Veteran Janey's Avatar
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    Default EC

    I got home today and thought Peter had had a stroke but seems it could be EC, he's had a steroid (I think), and I have panacur.

    My main issue at the moment is his lack of eating, he ate this morning but I'm not sure when this happened, regardless he obviously can't go long without eating. I'm hoping that it's just the shock of being lop-side, although he's not that bad, just a bit skew-whiff. My question is is it standard to have to force feed in such circumstances or do some buns manage alone? He looks like he could eat without issue and he's an old boy so if I'm going to be force feeding for weeks on end I don't feel it would be morally right.

    So awfully because he's just lying in his tray at the moment, I don't know what to do for him

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    Wise Old Thumper MightyMax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janey View Post
    I got home today and thought Peter had had a stroke but seems it could be EC, he's had a steroid (I think), and I have panacur.

    My main issue at the moment is his lack of eating, he ate this morning but I'm not sure when this happened, regardless he obviously can't go long without eating. I'm hoping that it's just the shock of being lop-side, although he's not that bad, just a bit skew-whiff. My question is is it standard to have to force feed in such circumstances or do some buns manage alone? He looks like he could eat without issue and he's an old boy so if I'm going to be force feeding for weeks on end I don't feel it would be morally right.

    So awfully because he's just lying in his tray at the moment, I don't know what to do for him

    Oh dear, I'm so sorry I know what this is like - one of mine had sudden onset head tilt.

    Is the vet sure it's nothing to do with his inner ear?

    I think often it's the shock to their system that prevents them eating, as otherwise they probably would continue. The steroid he's had will help his appetite, as a steroid always stimulates appetite as a side effect.

    I know it's easy to say, but don't look ahead. It's shocking, I know. Try to see it in the moment - I was surprised that my little one recovered and until that happened all the various scenarios were going around in my head.

    How old is he? x

  3. #3
    Warren Veteran Janey's Avatar
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    He's had real ear issues before and canal ablations (or something like that, can't actually remember the correct name, will have to look up my old posts), so I thought could be his ear but she looked and said they were clear. When he had ear issues before it wasn't a sudden on-set thing but I guess doesn't mean it couldn't be this time. I didn't actually go to my normal vet as it's a long way and didn't want to stress him, depending on what happens I may take him to the rabbit specialist on Monday.

    Thanks for the info about the steroid, I didn't realise that.

    Thank you, I'm trying to not think too much as it is what it is and after I put him through all the ear stuff before I said I wouldn't do that again given his age, so if it's going to be a long drawn out thing where he's suffering I'll have to do the kinder thing, I'm hoping of course that he will start eating & pick up.

    Glad your little one recovered, that's fantastic, they can be such little fighters.

    He's a rescue so not entirely sure but I think he's about 8.

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    Forum Buddy Zoobec's Avatar
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    I'm sending lots of vibes for Peter xx

    Binky free at the bridge Boots, you will never be forgotten xxxx
    IF YOU NEED HELP WITH ANYTHING PLEASE SEND ME A PM OR ANY OF THE OTHER FORUM BUDDIES

  5. #5
    Wise Old Thumper MightyMax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janey View Post
    He's had real ear issues before and canal ablations (or something like that, can't actually remember the correct name, will have to look up my old posts), so I thought could be his ear but she looked and said they were clear. When he had ear issues before it wasn't a sudden on-set thing but I guess doesn't mean it couldn't be this time. I didn't actually go to my normal vet as it's a long way and didn't want to stress him, depending on what happens I may take him to the rabbit specialist on Monday.

    Thanks for the info about the steroid, I didn't realise that.

    Thank you, I'm trying to not think too much as it is what it is and after I put him through all the ear stuff before I said I wouldn't do that again given his age, so if it's going to be a long drawn out thing where he's suffering I'll have to do the kinder thing, I'm hoping of course that he will start eating & pick up.

    Glad your little one recovered, that's fantastic, they can be such little fighters.

    He's a rescue so not entirely sure but I think he's about 8.

    Aww 8 isn't too old

    As I'm sure you know, there are several differential diagnoses for head tilt etc, and I had three vets pronounce different diagnoses for my rabbit, so what hope is there for us?

    Sometimes fluid moves in the inner ear, not always infection, and if that's the case it's a sort of 'labyrinthitis' which can clear up easily on it's own. An inner ear infection won't show through a look with an otoscope though.

    Have you started the Panacur? That might make a significant difference if it's caused by that.

    You would also want to discuss with your vet when you can put him onto Metacam. You can't give it whilst he's still getting the benefit of the steroid so you'd have to ask about the time lapse after it. Metacam is necessary to prevent the eruption of E.C. spores into organs such as the brain and kidneys which are particularly vulnerable, and where they would cause an inflammatory response. It might be a good idea to talk with your vet about having a full blood profile taken, because E.C. can cause issues in the kidneys. Your vet can then weigh up the pros and cons of prescribing Metacam, which it's believed can be particularly hard on the kidneys.

    http://www.dechra.co.uk/therapy-area...ion/e-cuniculi


    A couple of links about possible causes of head tilt:

    http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-8/head-tilt.html

    http://www.rabbit.org/health/tilt.html



    There's some info on this link about ear infections, but there are some graphic images:

    http://www.exoticpetmedicine.com/art...16)30173-2/pdf
    (it also takes a while to load!)


    What about joining this group to get some support?

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/HelpforHeadTiltHoppers/


    There's also some good info here:

    http://www.disabledrabbits.com/head-tilt.html

    I also tried a gentle massage, as once the muscle has gone into spasm, you need to gently coax the head to a normal position again:

    http://www.disabledrabbits.com/physical-therapy.html


    There's also the alternative of acupuncture and also cold laser therapy to help with symptoms:

    https://www.twickenhamvets.com/laser-therapy-amazing/

    My vet does this, and the results can be very good

  6. #6
    Warren Veteran Janey's Avatar
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    Thanks so much for all the info, I will have a read and then decide what my next steps will be.

    I'm just about to give the first dose of panacur, thought I'd give him a chance to settle a bit first. I guess EC would be the most likely diagnosis, after my initial thought of stroke I actually diagnosed myself so wasn't surprised what was said.

    I always thought they caught panacur from another rabbit with the parasites I remember when I rescued a new bun years ago I panacured all of mine, but I guess he's been to the vets in the last couple of years so could have picked it up then, or perhaps I'm remembering wrongly.

    I hate seeing him like this, want to get him moving a bit but at the same time don't want to stress him.

  7. #7
    Wise Old Thumper MightyMax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janey View Post
    Thanks so much for all the info, I will have a read and then decide what my next steps will be.

    I'm just about to give the first dose of panacur, thought I'd give him a chance to settle a bit first. I guess EC would be the most likely diagnosis, after my initial thought of stroke I actually diagnosed myself so wasn't surprised what was said.

    I always thought they caught panacur from another rabbit with the parasites I remember when I rescued a new bun years ago I panacured all of mine, but I guess he's been to the vets in the last couple of years so could have picked it up then, or perhaps I'm remembering wrongly.

    I hate seeing him like this, want to get him moving a bit but at the same time don't want to stress him.

    I'm sorry, it is distressing ..

    Most rabbits are actually born with the parasite already present, though not all show symptoms. It's difficult to predict who will and who won't. Lots of other conditions mimic the same symptoms as E.C. so it's really easy to get confused.

    It's shed by spores in the urine, and passed from one rabbit to another that way also. But so often you don't see any signs or symptoms.

    Just a thought - I feel that for a couple of reasons your vet should consider putting Peter on antibiotics.

    Firstly, if it's an ear infection, or something within the ear that's causing a loss of balance, it would help address that.

    Secondly, because he's on the steroid, what that does is suppress the immune system to some extent. In that case it's a good idea to give 'antibiotic cover' to prevent proliferation of any bacteria. So it would mean that his system was protected against any further assault in the form of bacterial infection.

    I know when one of my rabbits was given a steroid, the eye inflammation that had been successfully under control suddenly flared up, so we had to give antibiotics. Definitely worth asking about

  8. #8
    Warren Veteran Janey's Avatar
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    Thank MightyMax for all your help and knowledge, it's really useful.

    I will certainly ask the vet. He's still not eating, I think it's the disorientation that's bothering him, he almost looks interested but then is unbalanced so put off, I've syringed him a bit of water but not sure how often or how much to do this. Hate the thought of him being thirsty. I've left him alone for the night because he was getting a bit upset. He's a very easy going bun but this would be hard for anyone I'm sure, poor little man.

  9. #9
    Wise Old Thumper MightyMax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janey View Post
    Thank MightyMax for all your help and knowledge, it's really useful.

    I will certainly ask the vet. He's still not eating, I think it's the disorientation that's bothering him, he almost looks interested but then is unbalanced so put off, I've syringed him a bit of water but not sure how often or how much to do this. Hate the thought of him being thirsty. I've left him alone for the night because he was getting a bit upset. He's a very easy going bun but this would be hard for anyone I'm sure, poor little man.

    You're welcome Janey. I feel for you both x

    Yes I remember the look on my little one's face. Just couldn't believe it had happened. I should consider - maybe not today, but perhaps in a day or so looking at one of the links above concerning physical therapy. There's always acupuncture as well, but I have found warmth and gentle massage to be beneficial. The neck muscle spasms and then the head sets on one side. I've even had this happen to myself!! But nobody gently massaged my neck with warmth when I got to A&E with my wry neck

    Regards the eating and drinking - you can make the critical care solution quite watery, and perhaps when you've time buy some nice organic baby foods. Ella's Kitchen is good (and mine love the blueberries and bananas) but most supermarkets have their own brand much cheaper. They contain a lot of water as well

    What I've done when I've syringed water is sometimes whizz a small piece of apple up with the water to make it more exciting. Or perhaps a few strands of coriander.

    Herbs are good as they are usually eaten easily and digested well. Coriander, parsley, dill and mint. Crushing the stems to release the aroma and tickling his nose with them to see if he will snatch at it

    Have you rolled up towels to pad around him tonight? Will he fall over and not get up, or is he OK in that respect?

    Sending loads of hugs for you and vibes for Peter xx

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janey View Post
    I got home today and thought Peter had had a stroke but seems it could be EC, he's had a steroid (I think), and I have panacur.

    My main issue at the moment is his lack of eating, he ate this morning but I'm not sure when this happened, regardless he obviously can't go long without eating. I'm hoping that it's just the shock of being lop-side, although he's not that bad, just a bit skew-whiff. My question is is it standard to have to force feed in such circumstances or do some buns manage alone? He looks like he could eat without issue and he's an old boy so if I'm going to be force feeding for weeks on end I don't feel it would be morally right.

    So awfully because he's just lying in his tray at the moment, I don't know what to do for him
    I am never online in the evenings now so I have only just seen this. I well remember Peter's ear issues and I know that you agonised about him having the TECRA surgery. Given his history I would contact the Vet ASAP this morning and ask for him to be prescribed antibiotics. Personally I'd prefer my Vet to go straight in with the big guns-ie an injectable Penicillin. Whilst Baytril may provide some benefit it is less likely to hit hard and hit fast, especially if given orally.

    If your Vet is reluctant to prescribe 'off licence' straight away perhaps you could request they refer you over to the RCV Beaumont Animal Hospital this morning

    http://www.rvc.ac.uk/beaumont-sainsb...ferral-service

    Whilst EC may be an issue for Peter, his history makes middle/inner ear infection even more likely. And of course a middle/inner ear abscess cannot always be diagnosed just by looking in the ear canal. Skull radiographs/CT scans are needed to obtain an accurate diagnosis. As he has had a corticosteroid injection his immune system may be effected, steroids can have a negative impact on the immune system.So if there is a bacterial infection present it could potentially worsen if his immune system is weakened. Sorry if you already know all this, I think we 'spoke' about it a lot prior to Peter's surgery.

    With regards to his eating, if you did take him to Beaumont they may well admit him. In his acute phase of illness they may feel he needs to be fed via a naso-gastric tube, or they may be able to syringe feed him hourly. He would almost certainly benefit from IV fluids too.

    I really hope that Peter can pull through xx
    Last edited by Jack's-Jane; 23-09-2017 at 05:30 AM. Reason: spelling

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