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Bunny fighting - all quiet for now!

Monty's Human

Alpha Buck
So - after two weeks of bonding, things seemed to be going really well. They'd moved into a slightly larger space, and this had gone just about all right. There was one fight four/five days ago, but it was quickly broken up and seemed to be quickly forgiven. (We don't know what caused it). Today will be a week since they were let out of the bathroom into a slightly bigger space. So far this morning there have been two major fights. I was in the room for the second - Ossie was being territorial of the litter tray, wouldn't let Monty in and nipped at him. He then chased her and so it started. This was really vicious - as far as I can tell, they have no injuries, just fur pulling, but I almost wasn't able to get them apart. I had them in a corner and was pushing both of them apart, but both had locked teeth into each other's flanks and weren't letting go. It took my partner coming up and startling them to get them to let go of each other (and he goes to work soon, so I am now terrified of being alone with them).

I think this is territorial behaviour. Monty and Ossie have both been chinning things (including each other) and Monty has a couple of times sprayed urine (mainly over Ossie) but neither seemed to mind this, so I was letting them play it out as they would. I've seen them both share all their spaces quite amicably, and usually both will be in the litter tray eating and flumping together - so I don't know why Ossie was feeling territorial this morning. I haven't yet changed it as I have been doing in the mornings, mainly because it's still clean and the hay is good to eat (they have the litter tray and a carboard box, so they seem to have been weeing in the box last night). Monty's just gone into the litter tray with no reaction from Ossie, so I don't know. They're still quite edgy and there's a bit of facing up to each other.

Is there anything I can do, other than break up fights when they happen? Should I, perhaps, move them back to just the bathroom and start again? Is it perhaps that they need more entertainment? Should I be cleaning more frequently to try and stop it smelling of one of them? (We do it once a weekend so one can clean and one can make sure the bunnies don't get in the way of things like the hoover, but I could try and do it solo if this would help). I'm trying to keep cool because I know me getting nervous is likely to make it worse, but I've been bitten twice this morning, the second time quite badly (and Monty did it deliberately - the fight had broken up, he just bit me for pulling him away) so I'm struggling to feel comfortable around them. Is there any way of making this stop? :( Is it still normal at this stage, or is a sign that (despite all the good bits) the bond may not work out?
 
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ETA: Monty's just been spraying urine, and it looks slightly discoloured/or it could be blood. They had lavender last night, and he did have discoloured urine at around the same time as I last gave it to him. (Although I never linked the two things until now and I'm not sure how close in proximity the two events were) I've run my hands over them both and can't immediately find any injuries. But some of the "blood" has sprayed up Ossie's forehead and there's a couple of drops on one ear. Even if it is blood from something (rather than discoloured urine) it doesn't look like it can be serious - it's only a few drops. Aside from the fighting/nipping both are normal, both have eaten hay since the fight and I've seen Ossie (but not Monty) drink this morning.

Should I be worried? If so, how worried? Thanks in advance :)
 
If it is blood it may be that one of them has torn a claw. As you say that they both locked on hard to each other I would try to check them both over thoroughly a bit later. Puncture wounds caused by a bite can be hard to notice when they first occur, but they are the type of fight injury most likely to cause problems (abscesses).

As for their bond. It sounds as though it might be a good idea to reduce the space they are in again for a while. Also, is it possible to remove the litter tray if that has become an issue between them.

I dont know what sort of set up they live in ?
 
If it is blood it may be that one of them has torn a claw. As you say that they both locked on hard to each other I would try to check them both over thoroughly a bit later. Puncture wounds caused by a bite can be hard to notice when they first occur, but they are the type of fight injury most likely to cause problems (abscesses).

As for their bond. It sounds as though it might be a good idea to reduce the space they are in again for a while. Also, is it possible to remove the litter tray if that has become an issue between them.

I dont know what sort of set up they live in ?

Thanks Jack's-Jane! I will definitely try and give them another look over - they both become more sleepy and subdued post-lunch, so if I wait until then I should be able to get a better look. If it hadn't been for the fight this morning, I would have been sure it was just discoloured urine (and I have lots of advice on that from taking Monty to the vet last time about it), it's only because of the fight that I'm considering other possibilities.

I could change over their litter tray to the other one that they have which isn't currently in use, but I don't think I could remove it completely. At the moment, they have no access to a hutch (because of going through bonding) so they need somewhere to "go". They free range the flat - at the moment just the bathroom, study and hallway, although the aim is to eventually just let them free range all over. (The hutch is in the living room, so they will regain access once they can be trusted in there). I did manage to get Ossie out of the litter tray for long enough to change the bedding and clean it over with vinegar, although that doesn't seem to have helped much. She's also chased Monty out of the box with hay in it a couple of times, and nipped at him when he approached her lying on the floor, so I think it might be more a general territorial problem than specifically the litter tray.

I would be happy to consider putting them back in the bathroom, but it's really not an ideal environment for them (or us!), so I would rather not if it could be avoided. The other option would be to put them in the hutch and lock them in there. We've cleaned it once and could clean it again tomorrow morning then put them back in. My hesitation is a) they've both lived in it, so it's the least-neutral territory and b) moving them back into a bigger space post-hutch would mean removing access to the hutch again for a while, so I don't know if it's wise to do that, or whether in bonding terms the bathroom is preferable (as they retain access to that alongside growing space)? I think the hutch is a better environment for them but the bathroom is better for their bond, if that makes sense? Either way, if I need to restrict their space I will do that, it would just be deciding which option is better.

Thank you for your help! :D
 
Would their space allow for 2 of everything? 2 littertrays, bowls etc?

Possibly just, although it wouldn't really leave space for us then too! :lol: They sort of have that already - one litter tray (with hay) and one box with hay, two water bowls (one big, one small). I think anything more than that would be a squeeze - though again, I'd happily consider putting the second litter tray in if that would help.

Thanks for your suggestion! I can get the other litter tray ready later. We're going to clean tomorrow, so I can introduce it at the same time and see how it goes.

Quick update: Sorry for the panic! I can now see some very much definitely discoloured urine in the litter tray, so that was a false alarm.
 
Gosh, bonding can be so so stressful - I know from experience.

I don't know if you do, but when intervening in a fight, make sure you are wearing thick gloves - for instance oven gloves. Also, with regard to splitting them up during a fight, in addition to the gloves (have them handy), what about slipping a good sized thin piece of cardboard between them? This has worked for me in the past.

Also, when you say 'move into a slightly larger space' - do you mean an extension of the existing area or a slightly larger space elsewhere? (Forgive me if this was obvious within your post!).

When I have started off, the space has been almost litter tray sized, perhaps in a bath. I have then increased the 'cardboard border' in increments so slowly that they would not even necessarily be aware. When the original space has been increased sufficiently, I have slept downstairs for a couple of nights until I have felt as sure as you can be (you never actually can know, as you have found out!), before moving into their permanent home and even then keeping a close eye and ear - baby monitor?, listening for any scuffles.

I doubt they need 'entertainment'. Personally, I wouldn't do 2 of everything, although others may have a different opinion. And I would scatter feed. Cleaning .. I am obsessive anyway! I change litter tray at least once a day (twice a day when I had an incontinent bunny).

It may well be that you have to start again ... if so, pick a time when you can give all your attention, like a long weekend if possible.

Good luck .. I know exactly how you must feel as it is very dissappointing and unnerving if you think you have cracked it and it then it all goes pear shaped.
 
Gosh, bonding can be so so stressful - I know from experience.

I don't know if you do, but when intervening in a fight, make sure you are wearing thick gloves - for instance oven gloves. Also, with regard to splitting them up during a fight, in addition to the gloves (have them handy), what about slipping a good sized thin piece of cardboard between them? This has worked for me in the past.

Also, when you say 'move into a slightly larger space' - do you mean an extension of the existing area or a slightly larger space elsewhere? (Forgive me if this was obvious within your post!).

When I have started off, the space has been almost litter tray sized, perhaps in a bath. I have then increased the 'cardboard border' in increments so slowly that they would not even necessarily be aware. When the original space has been increased sufficiently, I have slept downstairs for a couple of nights until I have felt as sure as you can be (you never actually can know, as you have found out!), before moving into their permanent home and even then keeping a close eye and ear - baby monitor?, listening for any scuffles.

I doubt they need 'entertainment'. Personally, I wouldn't do 2 of everything, although others may have a different opinion. And I would scatter feed. Cleaning .. I am obsessive anyway! I change litter tray at least once a day (twice a day when I had an incontinent bunny).

It may well be that you have to start again ... if so, pick a time when you can give all your attention, like a long weekend if possible.

Good luck .. I know exactly how you must feel as it is very dissappointing and unnerving if you think you have cracked it and it then it all goes pear shaped.

Thank you! Until now, I've been using a towel to split up anything that got out of control - throwing it over them stops them long enough to get them apart safely. Today would, of course, be the day I put it in the wash! I actually have some cardboard to hand, though, so I shall steal that trick for now if it's needed :D

They had six days in the bathroom, then have had a week of also being able to access the study/hallway. The idea was to next increase their space by adding the living room/kitchen, which would mean they then had access to all the space they'll be allowed in. If I put them in the hutch, though, their space would have to be expanded by going back to the bathroom next, so they would then lose access to the hutch again until they were ready for the living room/kitchen. (Does that make sense?)

Feeding - I tend to hand feed, or scatter. They don't currently have food bowls. I really could clean more :lol: I might just have to get better about it. I have been cleaning out their litter and hay as soon as they need clean stuff - it's just my space and possessions I don't mind being a pigsty!

Monty seems to be trying to be ingratiating, so fingers crossed they'll have settled down again by this evening, but I will put in place preparations for needing to go back to basics just in case. We were doing so well! They spent yesterday afternoon curled up under the desk together being my slippers, I really thought we were all friends at last :(
 
I'm not an experienced bonder but I would be inclined to start from the beginning again and take things more slowly. May be frustrating but well worth it if the final result is a beautifully bonded pair.
Softly softly catchee monkey.
 
Thank you all!

I do have another quick question (sorry!) They had a bit of a spat a few minutes ago (nothing major, just nipping and a bit of a follow up "Grr" "Well grr at you too", I didn't have to get involved) but I was literally just on my way out to buy them veg. To be on the safe side, I locked Monty in the bathroom while I was gone. I let them straight back out together when I got back - and they were suddenly the best of friends! They had a sniff around each other, shared some veg (including having a leaf that they both ate at once) and, when I went in a moment ago, were both in the litter tray eating the new hay cuddled up together. It's the closest they've been all day! So should I consider giving them some "time out" if another fight does break out - lock one of them in the bathroom for say 10 mins (they'll still be able to hear and smell each other, so should know each is ok) then let them back out/in together? It's just a thought because they were suddenly so much more friendly after a brief separation. Thanks for any thoughts!
 
As I understand it, you shouldn't separate at all once you have started bonding. Other than that, I can't add anything to my previous advice.
 
As I understand it, you shouldn't separate at all once you have started bonding. Other than that, I can't add anything to my previous advice.

That's what I thought too. It just seemed to work so well, I wondered if it was worth considering.

We have put them back in the bathroom for now. We haven't been able to leave them alone for the past half hour or so, they've just been fighting constantly. We've just put them in the bathroom; if the fights continue, I think we will have to separate them tonight and probably give up on the bond :cry: It breaks my heart, but ever since this morning something has gone really wrong. I don't want to keep them together if this keeps up, it's getting really vicious. And I don't know what's caused it to just suddenly break down like that - there's really nothing I can point to as being definitely responsible.
 
I haven't commented on this thread up until now, as others have so much more experience than me in bonding. However, what has been clear from other accounts of bonding experiences on here, there is definitely not a right way, which will always work if its going to work eventually. Rabbits come with a variety of different characters and it seems that strictly following what works for one bonding, might not work with another. But that doesn't mean that it will never work.

I would see a big positive in that initially it seemed to be going extremely well. I think rabbits who will never bond successfully know pretty much from the outset that its not going to work and will fight very early on.

If it were me I would certainly go back to trying in the bathroom and leaving them there for a longer period once they have become friends again. It might not be very convenient for them or you, but I think it's probably a better plan.

If you do decide to give up, I wouldn't give up completely. I would leave them apart for a while and then retry. I would try to avoid doing this though.

I hope that things become calmer.
 
I haven't commented on this thread up until now, as others have so much more experience than me in bonding. However, what has been clear from other accounts of bonding experiences on here, there is definitely not a right way, which will always work if its going to work eventually. Rabbits come with a variety of different characters and it seems that strictly following what works for one bonding, might not work with another. But that doesn't mean that it will never work.

I would see a big positive in that initially it seemed to be going extremely well. I think rabbits who will never bond successfully know pretty much from the outset that its not going to work and will fight very early on.

If it were me I would certainly go back to trying in the bathroom and leaving them there for a longer period once they have become friends again. It might not be very convenient for them or you, but I think it's probably a better plan.

If you do decide to give up, I wouldn't give up completely. I would leave them apart for a while and then retry. I would try to avoid doing this though.

I hope that things become calmer.

Thanks Omi :) Unfortunately, this has come at a really bad time for other things going wrong, so it's really hard to find the energy to want to keep fighting them and their inclination to fight and try and get them together again. If we do have to split them up, we wouldn't be able to separate for a while and re-try - unfortunately, this was a "neck or nothing" bond, so if it doesn't work out now, we will have to very regretfully say goodbye to Ossie. They're still in the bathroom - there doesn't seem to have been any major fighting overnight, but there was some Ossie-fur clumps on the floor this morning, and the main reason for them seeming to get on appears to be that Ossie has taken on the bathroom shelf, Monty has taken on the floor underneath the shelf, and they are ignoring each other. I did put down some dried grass just now and they came out together peacefully, and I haven't seen any evidence of them being territorial over those spaces, so hopefully they're just doing that because it's most comfortable.

I'm really not sure about leaving them in the bathroom for too long, though. It isn't ideal for them because it's very hard to make sure they're getting proper care in there. As well as things like not being able to groom them (which is currently happening daily) there's a problem in that it's a small room and even with the window open it gets incredibly hot and humid with two bunnies constantly in there (and made worse by us bathing). Combined with only being able to provide water bowls, not bottles, I worry that one of them will get ill. They can also only fit in one pile of hay, so it's all but impossible to give them enough to last overnight - by the time I get up in the mornings, it's no longer fresh and they tend to not be eating it. For a few days it's manageable, but if this is going to have to be weeks of them in there, or them constantly needing to be put back in to "try again", I wouldn't be comfortable with it.

Sorry for moaning :( I was really struggling before this happened, and happy bunnies were about the only positive thing going on at the moment, so this is sort of the icing on the cake. I really wanted this to work out, but it just feels after yesterday like it isn't going to. I just wish I knew what caused it to change so suddenly! All the reasons I can come up with can all be solved by giving them access to the living room, which doesn't help, either. But not knowing what caused it, I can't fix it.
 
I'm sorry you are struggling:cry: trouble is with bonding is there isn't a textbook answer to things. The positive is that things were going very well. Ideas for things that might upset a bond (new or established) is moving to a new territory, expanding space too quickly, being territorial over a toy/bowl/litter tray, one or both being off colour ....

An example was I once adopted a pair of brothers who had a very close bond. When I got them home they had a fight at feeding time and chased each other constantly. I restricted space to the hutch and scatter fed pellets, and peace was restored.

Do you have any puppy panels? Maybe you could make a small pen for them, neutralise the area and start again from scratch, I would also be very careful about how quickly you expand space or move them if things are stable. If you have to use a litter tray, rather than using newspaper over the whole pen, then I would use one big underbed storage box that they can both fit in. I would scatter feed rather than using bowls, and not provide anything they can get territorial over

Have you watched the trio bonding video by mischief and tinkers mum in the behaviour and bonding sticky? It illustrates very well normal bonding behaviour and when to intervene.

Hope things improve.
 
I'm sorry you are struggling:cry: trouble is with bonding is there isn't a textbook answer to things. The positive is that things were going very well. Ideas for things that might upset a bond (new or established) is moving to a new territory, expanding space too quickly, being territorial over a toy/bowl/litter tray, one or both being off colour ....

An example was I once adopted a pair of brothers who had a very close bond. When I got them home they had a fight at feeding time and chased each other constantly. I restricted space to the hutch and scatter fed pellets, and peace was restored.

Do you have any puppy panels? Maybe you could make a small pen for them, neutralise the area and start again from scratch, I would also be very careful about how quickly you expand space or move them if things are stable. If you have to use a litter tray, rather than using newspaper over the whole pen, then I would use one big underbed storage box that they can both fit in. I would scatter feed rather than using bowls, and not provide anything they can get territorial over

Have you watched the trio bonding video by mischief and tinkers mum in the behaviour and bonding sticky? It illustrates very well normal bonding behaviour and when to intervene.

Hope things improve.

Thank you!

My main problem is that I really don't think I've done anything "wrong". They'd been in the same space for a week, didn't have access to anything new, and had been sharing a litter tray and box (which could both accommodate both bunnies at once) quite happily and without any problems. I did consider off-colour, and I have been keeping a close eye, but they are both eating and drinking normally, so if it is off-colour it's something currently too minor for me to spot. One thing I think it might be is that we are known to have a fox which comes to the back area - I'm wondering if he was around the night before and spooked them. They have dark places in their current space, but nothing that would really be "safe to hide" for a scared rabbit (those spaces are in the living room...) so that might have upset them enough to start them off being territorial? I also wonder if perhaps I am not feeding quite enough pellets/veg (they have constant access to hay) and that's making them grumpy? (I'm still working out amounts for two bunnies together). Other than that, I honestly don't know! Really nothing at all had changed between happiness and light and lots of cuddling together Thursday evening and fantastic fights breaking out Friday morning :(

I think I did watch that video, but I shall go and watch it again! I do wonder if sometimes I interfere a bit too quickly and it would be better to leave be (although yesterday morning was definitely needing an intervention!)
 
From my, very small, amount of experience, a small space doesn't suit every pair of bunnies.

When we bonded Simba and Tinkerbell we put them together in a massive metal panelled run in the garden. Nothing neutral, didn't realise you had to! He humped her a bit, she didn't care, and we put them together in the hutch and run combi on the night.

Maybe bonding in a larger space would suit them better? Just because the small space seems to be the "right" way to bond them according to most people on here, it doesn't mean to say that it works for all rabbits.

Just a thought, anyway.
 
Another point that also came to me is are you absolutely certain that the previous owner had the Doe spayed?
 
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