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Trio bonding help urgently needed

helloellenkitty

helloellenkitty

New Kit
Just over a month ago we lost our beloved bunny Nemo who was bonded with our other bunny Dino. Since then I have been trying to find him a partner.

On Saturday we visited a rescue and he met two bonded girls. We left them together for around 3 hours and the rescue staff said that it looked very promising. So we brought them home and put them in a pen in the lounge which we had neutralised with white vinegar.

The first day they were very nervous and nothing really happened. Then that night one girl who I have renamed Daenerys until I can think of a better name, started chasing and pulling Dino's fur. I researched this and saw it was about establishing dominance so I tried to just let this happen although it was not nice to watch. The other girl, Dollie, was very nervous and would jump at the slightest sound. It seemed as though Daenerys was in charge of her and Dollie was intimidated by her.

Then on Sunday we took them to our family's house for Father's Day and put them in a pen in the garden. Then the chasing and fur pulling got quite intense so I have been using a spray bottle to try and calm things down since. This didn't really work so I put Daenerys in a sectioned off part of the pen and then put her back in about an hour later. The chasing carried on towards both Dollie and Daenerys.

Since then there has still been chasing and I have had to separate them a few times as Dino and Dollie seem very stressed. I am scared to leave them alone so my mother has been watching them while I'm at work. I am starting to worry that Daenerys and Dollie were not fully bonded beforehand as Daenerys seems to really intimidate Dollie and Dollie has been grooming and lying with Dino which I don't think Daenerys likes. Daenerys does not allow Dino to use the litter tray and does not let anyone eat until she has. She chases and nips Dino constantly. However I have not seen any mounting except from Dino to Dollie.

So I have put her in another pen next to them because although it sounds silly Dino is my priority and I don't want him not being able to eat or use the toilet.

I am worried now that Dollie and Daenerys are not bonded and Dollie and Dino are. I do want them all to stay together but if Dino has found a match I don't want to ruin that. I have spoken to a professional bonder and I may be able to take them to her this weekend but I am worried if its the wrong decision or not. When I spoke to the RWAF they said it was highly unlikely that a trio would work and that I should seperate them and get a new bunny for Daenerys. However I do not want to do this as the bunnies have full range of our house so it would be unfair to keep two locked up. I feel it would be a shame to give up so soon but at the same time I am concerned about putting Dino through unnecessary stress if he has already bonded with Dollie.

I am not very experienced with bonding so any advice or help you could give would be greatly appreciated.
 
Firstly I'm sorry you lost Nemo. Secondly a warm welcome to RU.

Trio bonds are notoriously difficult but certainly not impossible. They do however call on reserves of time & patience. Its lovely that you are determined to make things work so all your bunnies can free range. I'm wondering if the rescue advised you of how difficult this could be.

The girls bond may well have been stable but this has been upset by the move & introduction of a third bunny. They now have to re-work out their hierarchy.

It is not uncommon for bunnies during bonding to stake claim to things - extra water bowls & litter trays are useful. I relied heavily on huge piles of forage to encourage them to eat together, scattered their nuggets. I also used to stroke them all at the same time which I think helped.
Many people to choose to start with a small bonding space & wait til its been calm for a while before extending . The trip out on Fathers day won't have helped I'm afraid. There is so much change going on for them already. I'd advise no moves within the home & not taking them out of it til (hopefully) everything is nice & settled.

Is the nipping just fur pulling or have there been any wounds? Can you describe the bonding space for us, size location etc
 
helloellenkitty said:
Just over a month ago we lost our beloved bunny Nemo who was bonded with our other bunny Dino. Since then I have been trying to find him a partner.

On Saturday we visited a rescue and he met two bonded girls. We left them together for around 3 hours and the rescue staff said that it looked very promising. So we brought them home and put them in a pen in the lounge which we had neutralised with white vinegar.

The first day they were very nervous and nothing really happened. Then that night one girl who I have renamed Daenerys until I can think of a better name, started chasing and pulling Dino's fur. I researched this and saw it was about establishing dominance so I tried to just let this happen although it was not nice to watch. The other girl, Dollie, was very nervous and would jump at the slightest sound. It seemed as though Daenerys was in charge of her and Dollie was intimidated by her.

Then on Sunday we took them to our family's house for Father's Day and put them in a pen in the garden. Then the chasing and fur pulling got quite intense so I have been using a spray bottle to try and calm things down since. This didn't really work so I put Daenerys in a sectioned off part of the pen and then put her back in about an hour later. The chasing carried on towards both Dollie and Daenerys.

Since then there has still been chasing and I have had to separate them a few times as Dino and Dollie seem very stressed. I am scared to leave them alone so my mother has been watching them while I'm at work. I am starting to worry that Daenerys and Dollie were not fully bonded beforehand as Daenerys seems to really intimidate Dollie and Dollie has been grooming and lying with Dino which I don't think Daenerys likes. Daenerys does not allow Dino to use the litter tray and does not let anyone eat until she has. She chases and nips Dino constantly. However I have not seen any mounting except from Dino to Dollie.

So I have put her in another pen next to them because although it sounds silly Dino is my priority and I don't want him not being able to eat or use the toilet.

I am worried now that Dollie and Daenerys are not bonded and Dollie and Dino are. I do want them all to stay together but if Dino has found a match I don't want to ruin that. I have spoken to a professional bonder and I may be able to take them to her this weekend but I am worried if its the wrong decision or not. When I spoke to the RWAF they said it was highly unlikely that a trio would work and that I should seperate them and get a new bunny for Daenerys. However I do not want to do this as the bunnies have full range of our house so it would be unfair to keep two locked up. I feel it would be a shame to give up so soon but at the same time I am concerned about putting Dino through unnecessary stress if he has already bonded with Dollie.

I am not very experienced with bonding so any advice or help you could give would be greatly appreciated.
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Hello there and welcome to the Forum :wave:

I will send you some links, as at the moment I don't have time for a full scale reply :)

I will say that the videos from Mischief and Tinker's Mum are very helpful :D

http://rabbit.org/the-most-important-word-in-bonding-is-patience/

http://rabbit.org/introducing-rabbits-in-a-group-situation/

http://www.cottontails-rescue.org.uk/information/bonding-bunnies/ (good for pair bonding)

http://www.fatfluffs.com/info/bonding/

http://www.actionforrabbits.co.uk/bonding.html


Book in RWAF shop:

https://shop.rabbitwelfare.co.uk/product/bonding-rabbits-by-fiona-campbell/



Mischief and Tinker’s Mum
http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?462466-How-I-bonded-my-trios-videos!

(some contradictory advice, but that's the way of all things, isn't it!)
 
Hi thank you so much for your kind words.

I have heard things about trio bonds being difficult but I have been hoping to try either a trio or a quad, not only because I have heard such positive things about this number but also because I do not want to go through what we went through before with Dino being left alone again. The rescue treated it very normally so that did not raise any concerns.

Ok thank you. So do you think there is no point in taking them to the professional bonder? As far as I know there have been no wounds but the fur pulling does seem quite intense. But that could just be me being overprotective. They are in a pen at the moment, its about 4 foot long but the litter tray takes up a lot of that space, and its in the lounge. Thank you so much for your help
 
For photos you need to upload to a hosting site such as photobucket.

Trios are wonderful, part of the reason I wanted one was so if one of my bunnies died they wouldn't grieve as much / be quite so lonely (I also fell in love with our third addition who was under the "hard to rehome " section at rescue.

MM's links are good - if you search trio bonding you'll find snippets of advice & lots of our shared experiences, joys & woes.

I'd double check for wounds as puncture marks can turn into abscesses.

Professional bonding? I'm a bit of a control freak so like to know whats going on & be there. As trios take their time it might also work out expensive. A possibility might be getting one to visit your home for a second opinion of how things are going, interpret behaviour & offer advice. I have also read of bunnies seeming to bond well in rescue then it all going pear shaped back in their space. I would call some for a chat & to see what they might be able to offer

I feel for you - it can be super stressful when bonding doesn't go great & of course we worry about our buns getting hurt or not coping psychologically. I had the same issue with one of my existing pair bonding to new bun, the girl of the pair was not so keen. Mine just gradually reduced their chasey time & upped their loving time (perhaps a month til the girls groomed) but it took months before I was confident it was working. Boo (original girl bun) is a bossy thing & will still have a minor chase occassionally, mainly they are all loved up though.
 
Thank you, I have the same reasons. After Nemo died it was awful watching Dino by himself.

Ok- thanks so much- so because there has been no fights do you think I am doing the right thing by carrying on trying to bond them as a trio? I will take a look at those links xxx
 
helloellenkitty said:
Thank you, I have the same reasons. After Nemo died it was awful watching Dino by himself.

Ok- thanks so much- so because there has been no fights do you think I am doing the right thing by carrying on trying to bond them as a trio? I will take a look at those links xxx
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You're welcome. Well I kept on trying & got there eventually so I'd have to say yes. Make sure the nervy ones are eating enough & managing to get some relaxing time though - even if you have to separate for short periods to manage this. I took it as a positive mine didn't fight as such, that one bunny doesn't retaliate is a huge blessing although it doesn't feel like that to watch. Remember too that they are rabbits, we are not - by this I mean its easy to project our own feelings about how they sort stuff out.
 
joey&boo said:
You're welcome. Well I kept on trying & got there eventually so I'd have to say yes. Make sure the nervy ones are eating enough & managing to get some relaxing time though - even if you have to separate for short periods to manage this. I took it as a positive mine didn't fight as such, that one bunny doesn't retaliate is a huge blessing although it doesn't feel like that to watch. Remember too that they are rabbits, we are not - by this I mean its easy to project our own feelings about how they sort stuff out.
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Thanks so much, when you say separate what do you mean by this? I have a separate pen next to the other two set up for the bunny who causes the trouble, so should I separate them like this? As so far I do believe that two have bonded. For instance should I allow them all time out in the garden one by one? Sorry for all the questions, I just really want to get it right!
 
helloellenkitty said:
Thanks so much, when you say separate what do you mean by this? I have a separate pen next to the other two set up for the bunny who causes the trouble, so should I separate them like this? As so far I do believe that two have bonded. For instance should I allow them all time out in the garden one by one? Sorry for all the questions, I just really want to get it right!
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Don't worry about questions. As mean as it seems I'd not let them have garden time yet - they have work to do :lol:

Its difficult separating & as a rule I'm not a great fan - just when needs must. In the very early days I'd separate mine in to existing pair & new bun who I'd take up to my bedroom if I really needed sleep. The problem I guess is that currently one of your girls has been separated from her bonded mate. Its so hard knowing what to do & I don't really know what to suggest. A separate pen would work for meals if thats the only way submissive bun will eat

Mischiefs videos are awesome & inspirational. I'm off to get ready for work now (didn't want to think I was deserting you) . I'll check back late tonight or tomorrow. There is (IMO) much to be said for not interupting the bonding once its started - with everything bunny its a balancing act. There is the opinion that by separating they have to start again each time they meet
 
Hi :wave: Welcome to the forum :)

We bonded a trio, but it consisted of two males and one female. The males had been previously bonded but had fallen out and been separated by their previous owner.

We found that Sydney and Buffy fell in love pretty quickly and Theo was like the annoying best friend, but things did settle down. They lived happily together until sadly Sydney became ill and we lost him. Buffy and Theo are still together and pretty loved up :).

I don't think it's time to give up or anything, it's maybe just not going to be so straight forward. As mentioned previously, the change of environment for Father's Day won't have helped.

Hope the links help, lots of luck x
 
joey&boo said:
Don't worry about questions. As mean as it seems I'd not let them have garden time yet - they have work to do :lol:

Its difficult separating & as a rule I'm not a great fan - just when needs must. In the very early days I'd separate mine in to existing pair & new bun who I'd take up to my bedroom if I really needed sleep. The problem I guess is that currently one of your girls has been separated from her bonded mate. Its so hard knowing what to do & I don't really know what to suggest. A separate pen would work for meals if thats the only way submissive bun will eat

Mischiefs videos are awesome & inspirational. I'm off to get ready for work now (didn't want to think I was deserting you) . I'll check back late tonight or tomorrow. There is (IMO) much to be said for not interupting the bonding once its started - with everything bunny its a balancing act. There is the opinion that by separating they have to start again each time they meet
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Thank you so much for your advice its been so helpful. Ill watch those videos tonight!

Just a few more questions (no rush to reply):

1. Do you think I should adopt another male to try and balance it out a bit or would this make things worse?
2. Should I try a bonding session in the bath and then put them back in the pen tonight?

Sorry if these are stupid questions
 
TheThreeB's said:
Hi :wave: Welcome to the forum :)

We bonded a trio, but it consisted of two males and one female. The males had been previously bonded but had fallen out and been separated by their previous owner.

We found that Sydney and Buffy fell in love pretty quickly and Theo was like the annoying best friend, but things did settle down. They lived happily together until sadly Sydney became ill and we lost him. Buffy and Theo are still together and pretty loved up :).

I don't think it's time to give up or anything, it's maybe just not going to be so straight forward. As mentioned previously, the change of environment for Father's Day won't have helped.

Hope the links help, lots of luck x
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Thank you that is very reassuring to hear. I do know it wont be straight forward its just very stressful! I thought changing environments is good but obviously that is not the case so I will try and keep them in the same space from now on. So glad I have forums like this to ask questions, I would be lost without it! Will be watching those videos as soon as I get home tonight!
 
helloellenkitty said:
Thank you so much for your advice its been so helpful. Ill watch those videos tonight!

Just a few more questions (no rush to reply):

1. Do you think I should adopt another male to try and balance it out a bit or would this make things worse?
2. Should I try a bonding session in the bath and then put them back in the pen tonight?

Sorry if these are stupid questions
Click to expand...

Bare in mind I'm no expert in bonding so these are just my thoughts:) I do find it fascinating though & remember how lonely & stressful it was with my trio

I have heard of adding in a buck to calm sparring does but no experience myself & I'm thinking that would be most effective if both girls were feisty. Maybe hold that as a possible plan if your trio bond doesn't work. I think it might. Rabbits truly at war are quite a different entity. There is the possibility you could end up with 4 separate buns too.

I might be tempted to try them in a new neutral space that's quite confined & a bath might serve that purpose (at least you'll have the loo handy :lol:) but i'd always put towels down. Some advocate not doing this but for me that seems akin to stress bonding (which I think is a bit mean, they are going through enough) as the slippyness makes them feel insecure. It also makes them prone to injury. This reminds me of a week in to our trio bond. My OH was "right, I'm fed up of this, they can sort it out in the bath". Joey made a quick escape & for the girls it seemed to be going really well. Boo (bossy mare) gave Mouse (submissive bun) kisses. My OH's face was a picture of joy, never seen him look so happy. Then in a nano second Boo went for Mouse. That's just Boo though, she did that a few times in their regular location.

Is your feisty girl a white bunny?
 
joey&boo said:
Bare in mind I'm no expert in bonding so these are just my thoughts:) I do find it fascinating though & remember how lonely & stressful it was with my trio

I have heard of adding in a buck to calm sparring does but no experience myself & I'm thinking that would be most effective if both girls were feisty. Maybe hold that as a possible plan if your trio bond doesn't work. I think it might. Rabbits truly at war are quite a different entity. There is the possibility you could end up with 4 separate buns too.

I might be tempted to try them in a new neutral space that's quite confined & a bath might serve that purpose (at least you'll have the loo handy :lol:) but i'd always put towels down. Some advocate not doing this but for me that seems akin to stress bonding (which I think is a bit mean, they are going through enough) as the slippyness makes them feel insecure. It also makes them prone to injury. This reminds me of a week in to our trio bond. My OH was "right, I'm fed up of this, they can sort it out in the bath". Joey made a quick escape & for the girls it seemed to be going really well. Boo (bossy mare) gave Mouse (submissive bun) kisses. My OH's face was a picture of joy, never seen him look so happy. Then in a nano second Boo went for Mouse. That's just Boo though, she did that a few times in their regular location.

Is your feisty girl a white bunny?
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Yes she is white! Hahah! Well today things have calmed down a lot, don't want to speak too soon but they have been sitting nicely together and the chasing and nipping has massively calmed down. I also feel more positive from getting more sleep last night! I watched those videos and it made me realise that these three are doing really well, they haven't had any fights or injuries thankfully so I think it's going really well. The videos are really helpful. They've been in their small pen 6 days now, don't want to move too quickly but when do you think I should increase the space? I miss having them all over the house! Thanks so much to everyone who has commented xxx
 
helloellenkitty said:
Yes she is white! Hahah! Well today things have calmed down a lot, don't want to speak too soon but they have been sitting nicely together and the chasing and nipping has massively calmed down. I also feel more positive from getting more sleep last night! I watched those videos and it made me realise that these three are doing really well, they haven't had any fights or injuries thankfully so I think it's going really well. The videos are really helpful. They've been in their small pen 6 days now, don't want to move too quickly but when do you think I should increase the space? I miss having them all over the house! Thanks so much to everyone who has commented xxx[/QUOTE

I knew it :lol: White bunnies seem to have, aherm, rather large personalities much of the time.

What a fab update - feeling more positive will help you & them. Time & again I've read on here that owners feel guilty about restricting their space so much during bonding, they make it bigger & war breaks out. Standard advice seems to be a good week with no bad behaviour. I know it seems like ages but I really wouldn't risk it yet. I'm pleased you're finding RU useful . Look forward to more updates xx
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