• Forum/Server Upgrade If you are reading this you have made it to the upgraded forum. Posts made on the old forum after 26th October 2023 have not been transfered. Everything else should be here. If you find any issues please let us know.

When to give up?

PatchMagic

Young Bun
Hi all,

I posted a couple of months ago about the bonding process of my trio.

It's been two months now and we had made amazing progress. Trio cuddles and constant kisses.

It's two females and one male. The male has bonded very well to both and we can trust him fully with either. The girls, however, will be wildly in love one week and then tense with another week. It's always the one girl, Molly, who will change and initiate tension.

The last two weeks have just been a nightmare. Poor Bloo (the other girl) has suffered quite a few injuries. They're all superficial but obviously awful nonetheless. Molly will approach her, lunge at her and Bloo will back off. Molly then dives at her, attaches herself to Bloo by biting her, lies on her side and madly kicks at her. It is horrendous to see. Bloo will not retaliate and tries to run away but can't because Molly is attached.

We obviously jump in and deal with it immediately but it just goes from 0 to 100 in a split second and out of nowhere. Molly will be getting a clean from Bloo then two seconds later she'll attack her.

Bloo sleeps with her head resting on Molly's back and even after the attacks will attempt to do so.

She's bonded very well with the male too but I'm wondering if it will be safer for all to separate her and get her a new friend.

We can never leave the trio unattended and because we don't want to separate them and harm the bonding process, we (my partner and I) have been taking it in turns to take shifts overnight for two months.

We, and Bloo of course, are at the end of our tether 😢
 
I can empathise but I don't really know what to suggest. Your trio sound very much like mine, they got very gradually better over time but Boo still has her Molly-esque moments. Like your trio bonds to our boy bun were totally unproblematic & new buns bond to him was kept me persisting so long. The good thing about mine was although did pull fur there were never any flesh wounds & I guess that is the main worry with yours.

I hope someone comes along with advice. I really hope you find a solution
 
Thank you for responding. It's really good to know I'm not alone in this but sorry you've had to go through it too.

My poor Bloo has lost two of her husbuns in the past and came from an abusive first home so I'm overly protective of her. She's also the sweetest little thing, it's ridiculous, I wish she'd at least tell Molly to sod off or something but she just gives constant love.

Your trio are beautiful, such a great photo of them!
 
Thank you for responding. It's really good to know I'm not alone in this but sorry you've had to go through it too.

My poor Bloo has lost two of her husbuns in the past and came from an abusive first home so I'm overly protective of her. She's also the sweetest little thing, it's ridiculous, I wish she'd at least tell Molly to sod off or something but she just gives constant love.

Your trio are beautiful, such a great photo of them!

aww thank you. My Mouse seems to have the traits of Bloo, a loving & gentle soul.

Mighty max is good at this kind of thing, she helped sort out my head with it all. Super stressful but amazingly rewarding if you get through the process
 
It makes it all the more devastating when they're loving and gentle doesn't it :( I'm glad when she throws a tantrum, I encourage it!

Mighty Max helped me out a lot in my first thread. I hope I can come back on here someday with a positive thread.
 
Hi all,

I posted a couple of months ago about the bonding process of my trio.

It's been two months now and we had made amazing progress. Trio cuddles and constant kisses.

It's two females and one male. The male has bonded very well to both and we can trust him fully with either. The girls, however, will be wildly in love one week and then tense with another week. It's always the one girl, Molly, who will change and initiate tension.

The last two weeks have just been a nightmare. Poor Bloo (the other girl) has suffered quite a few injuries. They're all superficial but obviously awful nonetheless. Molly will approach her, lunge at her and Bloo will back off. Molly then dives at her, attaches herself to Bloo by biting her, lies on her side and madly kicks at her. It is horrendous to see. Bloo will not retaliate and tries to run away but can't because Molly is attached.

We obviously jump in and deal with it immediately but it just goes from 0 to 100 in a split second and out of nowhere. Molly will be getting a clean from Bloo then two seconds later she'll attack her.

Bloo sleeps with her head resting on Molly's back and even after the attacks will attempt to do so.

She's bonded very well with the male too but I'm wondering if it will be safer for all to separate her and get her a new friend.

We can never leave the trio unattended and because we don't want to separate them and harm the bonding process, we (my partner and I) have been taking it in turns to take shifts overnight for two months.

We, and Bloo of course, are at the end of our tether 😢


In a way I'm kind of relieved that Bloo doesn't fight back as I think that could precipitate even more destruction than Molly already creates on her own.

I am shocked with what you've described Molly does, and if it weren't so vicious sounding I would say to keep pursuing the bonding. But that's not at all nice :(

So, if this were me ... and of course I'm not there with you and don't know how your nerves are standing up to this ... Well, how is Bloo within herself? Is she shaking with fear after these encounters? Does it put her off participating in the group?

And how are you? Truly at the end of your tether and seeing no improvement?

If it looks bleak, I would be tempted to split them. If not now, then in a few days or one week if there was no improvement.

Or ..... split them for now, and have a go at some other time. But I've found this really only works when something else has overtaken the bunnies such as illness, blindness or something that's mellowed the grumpy one.

What do you think?
 
aww thank you. My Mouse seems to have the traits of Bloo, a loving & gentle soul.

Mighty max is good at this kind of thing, she helped sort out my head with it all. Super stressful but amazingly rewarding if you get through the process


You're very kind JB xx
 
It makes it all the more devastating when they're loving and gentle doesn't it :( I'm glad when she throws a tantrum, I encourage it!

Mighty Max helped me out a lot in my first thread. I hope I can come back on here someday with a positive thread.


Patch, thank you :wave:

I am glad you've come back to update, despite it's not entirely successful. No one can say you haven't given it your best shot.

Do you think that Molly is being territorial and perhaps feels she has some right to 'dominate' poor Bloo? Is it all her 'land' and just that she won't share? I don't know how neutral the area was that they all went back into?
 
Hi Patch. Its a tough call, obviously trios with 2 girls can work, I have one, but they are sisters and used to each other. However, when I added in 2 more bunnies to the sisters, a male and female, it worked for 2 months but then 2 of the girls just decided they hated each other. I eventually took one girl out as there were injuries such as you describe. Ive now bonded my lone girl with a boy and its SO much better and she's thriving. I really persevered for ages but it was so stressful. So I have a trio and a pair.
If you have the space for another pair, it may be worth getting a friend for bloo rather than carrying on, but it could settle down. I don't think anyone can answer, so it depends on your situation and how much more you and your partner can take. And bloo of course. If she's happy despite Mollys jabs, it may be worth giving it a bit longer. Perhaps give yourself a deadline? If it settles, fine, but if there any more issues, take bloo out.
Good luck! 🐰🐰🐰
 
Thank you so much for your responses. I really appreciate it, it's nice to talk about it to people who understand.

After the incident yesterday Bloo was upset for all of two minutes then got back to munching on hay and flopping. Molly took herself outside for a time out and stayed there sulking for hours, which I was quite glad of.

Molly then came back in and lay down next to Bloo. Bloo gave Molly a huge clean and flopped into her. They stayed like that for the evening and ate their dinner together.

I honestly don't know what is going on anymore. I can't predict what Molly is going to be like from day to day, she's very difficult to read.

The space they went back to as a trio was neutral with new blankets, bathroom, hay holder, everything! There has been no territorial toileting, no arguing over food or general signs of dominance since they were put in their new neutral space. We seemed to have worked through all of that in the marathon bond I did at the beginning.

It is just the unexplainable behaviour of Molly now that seems to be the only issue. Bloo seems happy in herself, she's probably more outgoing and active than she's ever been.

Seeing Molly yesterday really shocked me. I've seen aggression and fighting before but she was so vicious and it came from nowhere. It was oddly silent too, not a sound came from either of them. Whereas normally in the past if there have been fights with other buns it erupts and the noise is unmissable. That is obviously a worry going forward.

I have it in me to carry on with it and I think Bloo does too but my worry is, even if we do get to a point where they're bonded well enough to be unsupervised, will they ever be truly bunny-bonded. If it's the case that molly will just accept Bloo enough to not hurt her but they won't have that great bunny bond, I'm not sure it would be worth it.

But then Bloo has a brilliant bond with Pumpkin (the male). As does Molly. Bloo will get her kisses and cleans from Pumpkin so she's not missing out but she has taken a real shine to Molly, she'll prefer to go to her over Pumpkin and will ask for a clean. Molly went through a lengthy phase of cleaning Bloo but now refuses.

Bloo used to be an upstairs bun with her husbun and they had a very cosy existence. She was very well looked after by him and was actually quite selfish. She would pretend to give cleans so it'd be reciprocated when what she was actually doing was just resting her head on her husbun. She was very cheeky and now seems to be making a huge effort but it's not appreciated.

If we do give up and get another bun she would go back to her upstairs life which I'm sure she'd be happy with.


I'm sorry I've just realised I've typed out an essay! Apologies.
 
Sorry just to add to my novel: we had previously set ourselves deadlines. It was like the buns knew this though. Each time we'd approach a deadline they'd really up their bonding game and become loved up. We'd then find it impossible to separate them. A few days would pass and they'd be putting doubts in our minds again so a new deadline would be set.

They've got us in a cycle of mind games!
 
I'm really tempted to suggest a vet visit for Molly from what you've described just for piece of mind.

My Daphne was like this til the last min of the bond. It took over 3 months to get them to a stable bond where I could leave them alone.

What do they have to do over night and what is their square foot roughly?

I'm going to suggest something I never normally endorse, but because you've come so far I he bond I feel it may be worth while to try.
When taking Molly to the vets, take the other two and have them all travel in the car together. This will allow them to all comfort each other during a stressful experience. If you're worried about fighting, have them in separate cases facing each other.

Again, it's not something I normally recommend as it's a stressful situation for them and bonding is normally stressful. But they're already living together and know each other so this could be the little push they need.

Sent from my SM-G903F using Tapatalk
 
Thank you for responding.

Funnily enough they all went for their vaccinations just last week so all in the same car and carrier, all huddled together in the vets and then all hunched together when we got home.

They get full checks at the vets and received the all clear.

They have access to the whole of downstairs so that includes living room, dining room, kitchen, pantry and sun room overnight then they have the garden and barn during the day. I did wonder about making it more interesting though, maybe putting in some wicker mazes, cardboard castles, that sort of thing. Molly loves being up high, so I could maybe get her an indoor climbing frame?

She's being difficult again today. She played out for a while then approached Bloo inside, Bloo put her head down for a clean and molly went to attack her.

It has been quite muggy here for the last couple of weeks so maybe that's making her miserable? She does have a fan she can sit by though. Her behaviour is so weird I just don't get it. It's making me very nervous for the future too, the thought that this could happen at any time is unsettling.
 
Glad they got the all clear and the visit was okay. :) also good they got along in the car and supported each other.

I'd maybe try providing them things to do together to help strengthen the bond.
Boxes of hay with forage mixed in etc.
I'd also smear a little Strawberry jam on Bloo s head to encourage Molly to groom & not attack.

Hopefully MM will be back soon to give further advice but this is what I would try.

Sent from my SM-G903F using Tapatalk
 
I would be too wary of abscesses forming from bite wounds to carry on with this.

Abscesses in buns are very tricky to treat, often recur, and can cause death. I don't think you'll ever be able to trust Molly unsupervised if she is this aggressive when you're around and doing a night shift can't be sustainable, surely? I only hope Molly doesn't start attacking your male bun when Bloo is removed.
 
Thank you for your responses.

I got back to some basics last night with treat smearing on heads like you suggested, daphne. It seemed to go well, lots of not negative interaction between them.

They've spent the day sleeping next to each other today and there's been no funny business.

Molly definitely still isn't her self though. She seems very tense and I can't seem to make her lighten up so maybe another vet visit might be a good idea.

I agree, Zarla. Overnight shifts aren't sustainable and it's not doing us any good at the minute but it is so hard to give up. If we have to we will though. It'd be easier if they did just decide to dislike each other and leave it at that, it's the fact that they will have such lovely moments in between that make it all so difficult to judge.
 
I agree if they were less off / on it'd be so much easier but as usual we're left trying to guess what they want.Typical of bunnies. I remember all the feelings you're experiencing no & I don't envy you. A second check up for Molly might be beneficial x
 
Thank you for your responses.

I got back to some basics last night with treat smearing on heads like you suggested, daphne. It seemed to go well, lots of not negative interaction between them.

They've spent the day sleeping next to each other today and there's been no funny business.

Molly definitely still isn't her self though. She seems very tense and I can't seem to make her lighten up so maybe another vet visit might be a good idea.

I agree, Zarla. Overnight shifts aren't sustainable and it's not doing us any good at the minute but it is so hard to give up. If we have to we will though. It'd be easier if they did just decide to dislike each other and leave it at that, it's the fact that they will have such lovely moments in between that make it all so difficult to judge.


I have to say that I had one tricky bonding where it transpired that one of the rabbits had an incipient jaw abscess.

I wish we could know these things when we start off the bonding .... impending ill health *does* make a difference to the way a bond goes. It doesn't always ruin it, but it's certainly different.
 
Thank you for your responses.

I got back to some basics last night with treat smearing on heads like you suggested, daphne. It seemed to go well, lots of not negative interaction between them.

They've spent the day sleeping next to each other today and there's been no funny business.

Molly definitely still isn't her self though. She seems very tense and I can't seem to make her lighten up so maybe another vet visit might be a good idea.

I agree, Zarla. Overnight shifts aren't sustainable and it's not doing us any good at the minute but it is so hard to give up. If we have to we will though. It'd be easier if they did just decide to dislike each other and leave it at that, it's the fact that they will have such lovely moments in between that make it all so difficult to judge.
I think another visit would be good for piece of mind. Have a really thorough check over of her for anything slightly wrong.
Also watch her behaviour very closely for a trigger. A tiny little thing could be the cause.

Have you considered pet remedy? It helps my girls bond considerably and I notice when it runs out.

Sent from my SM-G903F using Tapatalk
 
Hi all,

So we took both ladies for a thorough checkup and both were absolutely fine. We've had a holiday booked in between my posts so sorry for the delay.

We decided to separate the girls and get Bloo another friend. Although things were calming down between Bloo & Molly it wasn't getting to a bonded stage. Pumpkin & molly enjoy being out all day and playing in the barn whereas Bloo is very much an indoor, comfy blankets kinda gal. So we were either forcing pumpkin & molly to stay in to allow them exposure or Bloo was on her own. Everyone was getting pretty miserable.

So today we picked up Bloo's friend. He's a neutered male called Boris! He was taken to the rescue because he was 'naughty'. I strongly suspect he was abused though because he is terrified of humans. Whenever I lift my hand, for example to hand him a treat, he cowers and gets ready to attack. He won't let us touch him at all.

Fortunately he has bonded well with a bun in the past, apparently. So hopefully he'll take well to Bloo and we can earn his trust over time.

They're currently set up with a barrier between them so they can live side by side for a while. Bloo is being the dominant bun so far & Boris seems unperturbed by it. So fingers crossed this is the start of a great new bond.

Thank you all for your help, we all really appreciated it.
 
Back
Top