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Thread: Teddy has ec affecting bladder

  1. #1
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    Default Teddy has ec affecting bladder

    This is part of the email I received re. Teddy's recent blood test for EC, which was several weeks after a 5 week course of panacur and an improvement in his symptoms.

    'The test measures antibodies that Teddy's body produces against the EC organism. There are two different types: IGM and IGG. After a rabbit is exposed to EC the IGM goes up first, only decreasing from 16 weeks post infection. The IGG rises later and reflects ongoing infection or past exposure. The levels of IGG do not necessarily reflect the timing or severity of infection and clinical signs. But a positive IGG certainly means that the rabbit has been exposed to EC and any clinical signs may be attributable to the infection, and appropriate treatment is indicated.

    Teddy had a very low IGM level but his IGG was very high. I think in his case this means that his urinary issues may well be due, at least in part, to EC. Any mobility or limb stiffness may also be due to EC. But it is also possible that there are other factors involved (ie OA or other infectious organisms)."



    Teddy has another flare up including bladder sludge and urine scald. He also had a problem with a hind limb, but that also seems to have improved a little. (Not sure if this is due to arthritis, or EC or why it has improved other than we are trying him on metacam). At the moment, Teddy is peeing much more appropriately and the urine scald is very much improved.

    My vet is waiting for a response from Molly (rabbit expert), as to the Panacur course Teddy should have, but meanwhile, I wondered if anyone here had any thoughts or experience on the condition.

    My other concern is boarding Teddy for my holidays. Teddy would obviously be in 'kennel' type accommodation on his own and the pens are disinfected before and after occupation. Also, many rabbit apparently have this condition without symptoms. But what to you all think on the subject? He does have to go somewhere

  2. #2
    Wise Old Thumper Jack's-Jane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cara View Post
    This is part of the email I received re. Teddy's recent blood test for EC, which was several weeks after a 5 week course of panacur and an improvement in his symptoms.

    'The test measures antibodies that Teddy's body produces against the EC organism. There are two different types: IGM and IGG. After a rabbit is exposed to EC the IGM goes up first, only decreasing from 16 weeks post infection. The IGG rises later and reflects ongoing infection or past exposure. The levels of IGG do not necessarily reflect the timing or severity of infection and clinical signs. But a positive IGG certainly means that the rabbit has been exposed to EC and any clinical signs may be attributable to the infection, and appropriate treatment is indicated.

    Teddy had a very low IGM level but his IGG was very high. I think in his case this means that his urinary issues may well be due, at least in part, to EC. Any mobility or limb stiffness may also be due to EC. But it is also possible that there are other factors involved (ie OA or other infectious organisms)."



    Teddy has another flare up including bladder sludge and urine scald. He also had a problem with a hind limb, but that also seems to have improved a little. (Not sure if this is due to arthritis, or EC or why it has improved other than we are trying him on metacam). At the moment, Teddy is peeing much more appropriately and the urine scald is very much improved.

    My vet is waiting for a response from Molly (rabbit expert), as to the Panacur course Teddy should have, but meanwhile, I wondered if anyone here had any thoughts or experience on the condition.

    My other concern is boarding Teddy for my holidays. Teddy would obviously be in 'kennel' type accommodation on his own and the pens are disinfected before and after occupation. Also, many rabbit apparently have this condition without symptoms. But what to you all think on the subject? He does have to go somewhere
    It sounds as though your Vet feels that EC might account for some of Teddy's symptoms but that there may be other factors involved too. Metacam is a non steroidal anti inflammatory and with EC it is inflammation caused by erupting EC spores that causes clinical symptoms. So reducing inflammation should help reduce the severity of the clinical symptoms associated with EC. Likewise, if arthritis is involved the symptoms should improve when a NSAID is given. So whatever the cause of Teddy's problems it seems that minimising inflammation by giving Metacam helps him.

    Panacur will not 'cure' EC or reduce inflammation, it can reduce the number of EC spores circulating in the bloodstream. So Molly may suggest another course of Panacur.

    There is some information about EC here:

    http://www.rabbitwelfare.co.uk/pdfs/Ecuniculi_Lft.pdf

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by cara View Post
    This is part of the email I received re. Teddy's recent blood test for EC, which was several weeks after a 5 week course of panacur and an improvement in his symptoms.

    'The test measures antibodies that Teddy's body produces against the EC organism. There are two different types: IGM and IGG. After a rabbit is exposed to EC the IGM goes up first, only decreasing from 16 weeks post infection. The IGG rises later and reflects ongoing infection or past exposure. The levels of IGG do not necessarily reflect the timing or severity of infection and clinical signs. But a positive IGG certainly means that the rabbit has been exposed to EC and any clinical signs may be attributable to the infection, and appropriate treatment is indicated.

    Teddy had a very low IGM level but his IGG was very high. I think in his case this means that his urinary issues may well be due, at least in part, to EC. Any mobility or limb stiffness may also be due to EC. But it is also possible that there are other factors involved (ie OA or other infectious organisms)."



    Teddy has another flare up including bladder sludge and urine scald. He also had a problem with a hind limb, but that also seems to have improved a little. (Not sure if this is due to arthritis, or EC or why it has improved other than we are trying him on metacam). At the moment, Teddy is peeing much more appropriately and the urine scald is very much improved.

    My vet is waiting for a response from Molly (rabbit expert), as to the Panacur course Teddy should have, but meanwhile, I wondered if anyone here had any thoughts or experience on the condition.

    My other concern is boarding Teddy for my holidays. Teddy would obviously be in 'kennel' type accommodation on his own and the pens are disinfected before and after occupation. Also, many rabbit apparently have this condition without symptoms. But what to you all think on the subject? He does have to go somewhere

    Hi Cara

    Nice to hear from you again

    It's certainly difficult to know whether the hind limb involvement is due to E.C. or to other causes, e.g. arthritis. Metacam is a great drug to use on many levels. It works as Ibuprofen works for us, in that it reduces inflammation as well as helping with pain control. This means that any inflammatory response caused by the E.C. will also be addressed - useful

    Do you mean that Molly may suggest another course of Panacur for Teddy and that's what your vet is waiting on? The course that he had should have eradicated spores in the urine, along with good cleaning up etc ....

    https://www.vettimes.co.uk/blood-tes...li-in-rabbits/

    http://www.msd-animal-health.co.uk/b...cm80-72082.pdf

    https://www.vets-now.com/pet-care-ad...li-in-rabbits/


    I'm glad to hear that Teddy's peeing is improved. That must be a relief for you!

    Regarding his holiday, if the pens are thoroughly disinfected before and after each stay, then there should be no problem. The only issue is that the stress of boarding may bring about a lowering of his immune system and that may or may not impact upon symptoms. You could try giving him echinacea before he goes and perhaps get them to continue with it whilst he's there?

    https://www.baldwins.co.uk/baldwins-...-fluid-extract

    (or break open a good capsule supplement)

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    Thank you both for replies and the useful links.

    Yes, my vet is taking advice from Molly as to whether Teddy should have a regular dose of Panacur.

    I must be perfectly honest in that although I thoroughly cleaned Teddy's accommodation, I didn't use bleach etc. At the time, I felt that as Teddy was brought inside for a spell and I have cleaned and aired everything outside, then that would be enough. And thinking about it, what about the lawn which he grazes on? Do the spores also thrive on the lawn? His kennel will get disinfected along with the next course of Panacur.

    Will see what the vet comes back with.

    Hope all is well with both of you, in your neck of the woods

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    I'm trying to remember how many weeks the spores live for... I want to say 4 weeks? Someone will correct me, I'm sure.
    Sarah.

    RIP Dusty and Clover xxx
    Harry hamster

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    Quote Originally Posted by SarahP View Post
    I'm trying to remember how many weeks the spores live for... I want to say 4 weeks? Someone will correct me, I'm sure.

    Exactly Sarah

    Spores from infected urine can remain in the environment for one month

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by cara View Post
    Thank you both for replies and the useful links.

    Yes, my vet is taking advice from Molly as to whether Teddy should have a regular dose of Panacur.

    I must be perfectly honest in that although I thoroughly cleaned Teddy's accommodation, I didn't use bleach etc. At the time, I felt that as Teddy was brought inside for a spell and I have cleaned and aired everything outside, then that would be enough. And thinking about it, what about the lawn which he grazes on? Do the spores also thrive on the lawn? His kennel will get disinfected along with the next course of Panacur.

    Will see what the vet comes back with.

    Hope all is well with both of you, in your neck of the woods

    It's worth noting that ...

    Following treatment with fenbendazole, E. cuniculi parasites were no longer present (detectable). .

    source:
    http://www.houserabbit.co.uk/resourc.../ecuniculi.htm

    Treatment with Panacur should work well. I wouldn't worry about the grass and the bleach - you have done what you can, and it seems are doing an awful lot for Teddy's health.

    If Molly hasn't suggested anything concerning those things, I would take that as being OK. (You may not have asked her directly, but I'm sure she would've picked up on them, had they been relevant)

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    Yes, I also believe spores can survive 4 weeks.

    One other thing, thinking about it - I don't know if it is just me, but I found it really difficult dosing the Panacur. I found the graduations very difficult to follow Some doses definitely seemed bigger than others.

    Someone mentioned bottled Panacur rather than the paste. Is that more of a liquid and still generally palatable? Thinking I might find it easier to dose?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cara View Post
    Yes, I also believe spores can survive 4 weeks.

    One other thing, thinking about it - I don't know if it is just me, but I found it really difficult dosing the Panacur. I found the graduations very difficult to follow Some doses definitely seemed bigger than others.

    Someone mentioned bottled Panacur rather than the paste. Is that more of a liquid and still generally palatable? Thinking I might find it easier to dose?
    I always use Panacur 10% liquid at a dose rate of 0.2ml/kg/day (20mg.kg/day)

    http://www.animeddirect.co.uk/panacu...html?q=panacur

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by cara View Post
    Yes, I also believe spores can survive 4 weeks.

    One other thing, thinking about it - I don't know if it is just me, but I found it really difficult dosing the Panacur. I found the graduations very difficult to follow Some doses definitely seemed bigger than others.

    Someone mentioned bottled Panacur rather than the paste. Is that more of a liquid and still generally palatable? Thinking I might find it easier to dose?

    Yes I have always used the Panacur liquid - Panacur Small Animal 10% Suspension is what I buy. You can get it loads of places online, but it may be you'd prefer your vet to work out the dosage to be correct about it? If so, your vet will probably dispense some and it should be cheaper and easier than the paste.

    Though I have to say, I don't think any of it tastes very good!!

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