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need some advice with two bunnies..

binkyCodie

Mama Doe
this will be long but I feel its best to go back to the start so everybody knows the background. so here goes..

April 2015 I decided to get myself a rabbit after years of research and saving up for a hutch, run, neuter. we headed to a breeder and took home the little grey bean called Snoopy. being my first bunny I felt overwhelmed by the idea of having two to begin with.

later on in the year I felt that he was lonely, so I made the decision to look into rescuing. I heard there was a rex looking for a new home not too far away so I make the decision to head over and take a look.

put it this way, I couldn't leave her behind. 6 month old, almost fully grown rex living in an 80cm cage, no hay, no food, sorehocks, bars chewed to death, overgrown claws. I couldn't leave a innocent bunny in that condition, so home came Luna.

from October till March the pair hated one another, chasing, ripping fur out, growling. Luna was terrified of him. I went to basics of playing their runs side by side, cage swapping, territory swapping i guess, scent swapping. nothing actually worked for me. in the end I gave up and went to work on luna's behavioral issues, like being terrified of me, cage aggression, food aggression, and being scared of generally everything.

last year in March Snoopy became pretty sick and I had to bring him inside for treatment (he was an outdoor bunny). so I split Luna's cage in two and the pair of bunnies became inseparable almost instantly. Luna chewed your iPhone wire? Snoopy was right behind chewing further down, they were partners in crime!

skip to now, since February I've not been able to have them near one another without bars. the pair beforehand lived quite happily in a massive dog crate with plenty of toys, play time, pets, and free roam of my bedroom when I was up there (which is quite often!)

I've had to purchase another cage and place them into smaller cages, which makes me feel like complete poop as they're in now way to small cages, but I don't have the space for two massive cages. 100cm for each bunny to be exact. (yes, I am aware this is way too small. no, I am not happy about it. yes, I wish this wasn't the case. and I never planned nor saw this coming.)

right now they are next to one another in the cages and seem to ignore one another except for when Snoopy decides to try to go for Luna through the bars.

if I have them out together, trying to bond them, Snoopy ends up being the driving force and grunting, biting onto her, trying to hump, and of course Luna runs away resulting in a high speed chase. I've had to rip Snoopy off of her on a few occasions when I've tried to bond. she's seems terrified of him, the moment i place them near one another she runs away looking pretty fearful and wants to be nowhere near him.

I've gone right back to basics, scent swapping, cage swapping, neutral territory. nothing is really making progress.

I've had Snoopy checked out at the vet in February when this all started., he had rabbit version of a cold, put on antibiotics and has since been cleared on our last check up. Luna is displaying no issues herself, she's more than happy being grumpy and chewing everything lol.

both are fixed rabbits, and that for both of them was done well over a year ago, and both are two years old.

sadly there is no where else to house the bunnies except in my bedroom where Luna was first (Snoopy was originally an outdoor rabbit). so I can't move one and then upgrade to bigger cages. it makes me feel like a horrible owner as they're living in small spaces, but don't have any bigger space for both of them :(

I'm at the point I can't care for both of them like this, so rehoming may be an option if I can't ever sort this out, and that's not something I want. I raised Snoopy like my child and treated Luna like my baby also. I'm really proud of her (and myself!) for how far she has come. but even so, she still has issues such as biting you if hands are in cages or you try to move her food bowl or give her food. so that concerns me for rehoming as people don't often enjoy aggressive pets.

does anybody have any advice?
 
Oh dear, I'm sorry that you are having such problems, it must be really difficult to deal with.

I don't really have enough experience to speculate what's gone on with the pair of them, but hopefully someone will be along who can. I'm thinking that having either of them back outside is not an option or you would have thought of that already, so I don't really know what you can do, other than rehoming potentially which would be upsetting for you.

Now the weather is nicer, is it possible to give them each some time outside in a large run, so they can enjoy some extra space? We have two indoor rabbits who go outside on nice days x
 
Oh dear, I'm sorry that you are having such problems, it must be really difficult to deal with.

I don't really have enough experience to speculate what's gone on with the pair of them, but hopefully someone will be along who can. I'm thinking that having either of them back outside is not an option or you would have thought of that already, so I don't really know what you can do, other than rehoming potentially which would be upsetting for you.

Now the weather is nicer, is it possible to give them each some time outside in a large run, so they can enjoy some extra space? We have two indoor rabbits who go outside on nice days x

its quite mentally draining if im honest. i already suffer from a few mental health issues, and multiple times i've ended up sitting on the floor crying as I feel so awful and such a horrible person for keeping them in such a small space. its quite hard to deal with.

snoopy could go back outside, but then i'm worried he will get lonely. here he has me that walks in and out of the room. whereas outside he'd just be stuck outside in the hutch so i'm not really sure if he'd adjust. and even so that's going to be a slow process in the summer, so thats still a few months away till i could place him outside. he used to chew his hutch and I feel i need to repair it anyhow with its current wear and tear, possibly buy a new one.

currently they do go outside on nice days, but evenso its still a small space until i can buy some more play pen panels :( we use some from bunny business, £20 for an octagon metal play pen. they're just panels held by pins, so we can remove them. i have two sets, but some panels are needed indoors to bunny proof. before i had a massive area for them to go in, pretty much separated half the garden lol. now its only 60x120cm of space (per bun) until i can get some others to enlarge it. yay for vet bills lol.

i just am at a complete loss.
 
Yes, I can only imagine how hard it is for you :(

Ive been sat here trying to come up with ideas, but can really see from your post how complicated and difficult it is. Obviously the situation can't continue as it's very stressful for you and not ideal for the rabbits.

I thought maybe breaking down some options / thoughts might help :)

- get some advice (local rescue, vet, on here hopefully) about the possibility of rebonding them. Is there something that can be done.
- is the amount of indoor space contributing to them not getting along. How big is the room? Ideally they should be free roaming all the time.
Maybe being shut in and then let out sends them a bit wild.
- have you been trying to bond in a neutral area? Back to basics.
- Could they both go outside together full time in a large hutch run combo, playhouse or shed maybe, if rebonding is possible?
- Maybe not bother with a hutch, we have got two second hand playhouses and a free shed from selling websites.
- I think those panels are better for indoors anyway, dont they usually not have a top? So you have to supervise them if outside?
- Move just Snoopy outside, but consider bonding him with another rabbit and keeping Luna as a single indoor bun (maybe more suited to single life due to aggression).
- What happened to your large garden area, have you moved?
- Do you have anyone to help you?
- Consider rehoming as last resort.

Feel free to ignore though lol. Btw you were kind to try and help Luna given the situation she was in, try not to be too hard on yourself x
 
- is the amount of indoor space contributing to them not getting along. How big is the room? Ideally they should be free roaming all the time.
free roaming is sadly not something I could ever commit too. I still live with my parents, and put it this way: the house is a mess. before bringing Luna home I tided most of the house up.. its back to looking as it was before. there is no way i could let them free roam, along with the whole house being carpeted. my dad wouldn't think twice about throwing both rabbits out if they chewed up the carpet or wires ect, as they seem to end up getting to wires no matter how much i hide them lol. before they had an area of 200cm x 100cm of a cage, which also had a shelf in for another level. and then i'd let them run around my bedroom most of the day, as i probably spend 12 hours there lol. of a night i'd put them away as of course they bounce on the bed and sit on my face while i wish to sleep :lol:
when i go out and they couldn't come out in my room, I'd leave them with plenty of toys and entertainment to hopefully keep them busy until i can get home and let them out.

- have you been trying to bond in a neutral area? Back to basics.
yes. I've gone right back to basics, scent swapping, cage swapping, neutral territory. nothing is really making progress. i've tried the bathroom, kitchen, unknown territory outside.

- Could they both go outside together full time in a large hutch run combo, playhouse or shed maybe, if rebonding is possible?
i suppose in general, i really do not like them going outside at all. luna has only known inside all her life, and they're so out of the way outside. when snoopy was outside I was yelled at during the winter as walking to the hutch made the yard muddy. in winter they get even less interaction as its cold. i also am concerned about luna going outside at all as her previous owners used to wash her. as in, literally place her in a sink and fill it up with water, and then shampoo her. her coat is still damaged pretty badly, any wetness just soaks her, so im not sure how weather proof she would be for going outside :/
i also worry about them having access to a run 24/7. we have foxes here, and it wouldn't take much for them to dig in, or for the bunnies to dig out. when snoopy was outside he had a thick cover and we placed heavy items at the bottom to secure him in from foxes. i guess im a bit of a worried momma.

- Maybe not bother with a hutch, we have got two second hand playhouses and a free shed from selling websites.
we have no where to place a shed sadly. theres no space for it in the backyard.
what do you mean by playhouse?

- I think those panels are better for indoors anyway, dont they usually not have a top? So you have to supervise them if outside?
they come with a nylon cover for the octagon size. however i use an old slightly chewed sheet and peg it to the top so they can't jump out. i supervise them from indoors anyhow as I get worried about them. im a bit of a worrying momma.

- Move just Snoopy outside, but consider bonding him with another rabbit and keeping Luna as a single indoor bun (maybe more suited to single life due to aggression).
if im honest, I'm not entirely sure if I could afford a third rabbit. i'd need more money spare in case of vet bills, and more for vaccinations. i pay out £14 a month for a vet care plan (free fly strike, free vaccinations, 10% off worming and then 6 other items you can pick like spaying, neutering, microchip ect). that would be £21, then i need some spare incase of vet bills. im currently hanging onto hope that Luna won't fall ill as I have £40 to my name as snoopy broke the £150 i had saved away for vet treatment lol. I'm not even sure if I would be allowed to bring another rabbit home.

then again, I'm not even sure if Luna is the issue. Snoopy seems to be attacking her, and she's running away in fear, she hardly ever goes back at him. at her previous home she had 3 other bunnies they interacted with, and apparently she loved them and got along well. (basically, the father brought his four daughters one bunny each, however Luna used to belong to the eldest daughter at 18/19. she didn't care for the rabbit, wanting to go out and party ect. so it was left on the parents who worked full time, so she got no attention. even so I don't feel it excuses her horrible conditions, nails, no food and cage. looking at ages and times, i'm guessing the bunnies were easter gifts.) she's just mostly aggressive towards humans, but any buns she's submissive and loving it seems. i feel like she could have been abused and being stuck in a 80cm cage all day probably made her territorial and grumpy ect.

- What happened to your large garden area, have you moved?
basically I used to have the garden separated in half with the metal panels. in the summer we'd have the patio door open, and they could run in and outside of the living room, but they were friends at this time so we had no issue. now however? i can no longer do this, or let them outside in the large area. if I do, I end up with an injured bunny. so now I've had to create pens for the rabbits, which results in a smaller space. and an odd number of panels means that i can't make is big as I would like until I can buy some more.

- Do you have anyone to help you?
apart from parents, who are just as clueless and don't really understand, nope.

- Consider rehoming as last resort.
it is for sure my last resort, but its looking more likely unless something magically changes :(
 
Thank you for posting such a detailed reply to my questions :)

It really is a bit of a predicament. I understand that as vet bills could be a problem and tension with parents an issue, then adding in a third rabbit would be a definite no no, so we should rule that out.

The two playhouses we have are just child's wooden playhouses. We got one for £40 and one for £20 second hand, you often see them for sale and they make a lovely home for rabbits (with access to a run also). We just made a few small changes, added some mesh, locks etc. But, as you say you would prefer them to be indoor rabbits and with the risk of foxes. I would be wary of using a run without a fixed top for that reason also, when they do go outside.

Do you feel like your dad would prefer not to have the rabbits perhaps? I completely understand about chewing etc but if there was an area that could be rabbit proofed maybe. Its a shame you were shouted at about the muddy yard as thats inevitable really as having rabbits in winter can be a bit messy.

I wonder if there's any members local to you who might be able to help with any future bonding attempts. Obviously you can't just disclose your location to anyone though, so it would have to be managed correctly. A number of members are connected to specific rescues. Do you have any rescues in your area who could assist with bonding? I do know though that sometimes it just simply won't work. I can't really explain though why they got on for a time and then it went wrong again. Poor Luna has obviously had a rough ride before which could have contributed to how she is now, but as you say it's sometimes snoopy who seems to have the issue. I wonder whether when he was ill and they got along it was because he didn't have the energy to 'argue' (but I'm a novice, so just guessing really).

When we first started trying to find a partner for our doe Dottie we went to a rescue and introduced her to a male. It was hate at first sight :shock:. Dottie was terrified frozen to the spot and the boy would go up to her and swipe her across the face. So that came to an abrupt end. Her second partner (at a different rescue) was love at first sight, but unfortunately he became ill and we had to pts after just 6 weeks. She now has lovely Ziggy who she bonded easily with. I guess what I'm saying is that the personality of the individual rabbits is important, and unfortunately some matches just don't work out.

Where you go from here, I'm not sure x
 
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it really is a sticky situation :( its like you turn one way and the door is closed there too. and i feel a bit poop as well, you're suggesting things and they're sadly not going to be for me. i just get worried i sound like im making excuses haha.

honestly I do feel my dad would get rid of the pair of them if he could. however, he did agree to them as long as I paid for everything which i have done, unless somebody or my mum has brought them gifts. i didnt just bring home Snoopy or Luna one day without asking first. otherwise everything has been from my pocket and mine only. he just doesn't understand them. before snoopy's dental i had him downstairs to keep a better eye on him, and all i got from my dad was "hes moving i don't see the issue with him". yep because him hopping around means he's a-okay :roll: no matter how many times i explained he never really listened and just continued with, he moved, hes good.
another thing with the muddy yard is, its not exactly a show garden.. the soil has all sorts of stones and glass in it. all it is is mowed every month or so and that's about it. if anything i then brought grass seed to replant it and its been fine ever since.

Do you have any rescues in your area who could assist with bonding?
all I have is the RSPCA, and as far as im aware they don't. not for bunnies that you haven't rescued from them ect. i really am somewhat on my own. i could ask around on fb if anybody knows any rabbit fosters/rescues, but personally I don't have a clue lol.

I wonder whether when he was ill and they got along it was because he didn't have the energy to 'argue' (but I'm a novice, so just guessing really).
honestly im not sure. it was a good year that they got along though, and they were both healthy throughout that so I really don't know.

to be honest I am still a novice owner, these are my first bunnies and i never knew about bunny personalities and so on. i did do plenty of research but i never came across half of what I know now until i started joining forums or asking others first hand. i never really knew about how many pellets bunnies should have, how important hay is and so on. i just knew the basics of hay is important, spaying, bedding, hormone behaviors. i felt prepared but really wasnt lol.

i've been trying to find breeders hutches i guess.. the ones that are two hutches stacked on top of one another. if they don't ever work out maybe I could invest in one to place in my room. i really don't feel i could rehome either of them without breaking my heart in two. i could offer likely 5-6ft for a hutch for them... could this work or is this a no no among bunny ownership?
they look like this:
2-story-rabbit-hutch-double-cage-pen-wooden-pet-house-P-659845-1812433_1.jpg
 
No, don't feel bad that some of the options just aren't possible, that's the way it is sometimes, unfortunately. I think if you did have some family backup though, then maybe it would help to get something sorted or for you to at least feel like your not alone in this.

I did misunderstand about the time when they did get along, I thought it was when Snoopy was ill.

Unfortunately, while I can see your thinking with the hutch I don't think it would be what's best for them. There's a definite move away from hutches for rabbits and to have to keep them shut in something like that for any length of time is not great tbh. Obviously if you plan to let them out when you are in your room, then that's still only for a proportion of time and one at a time if rebonding isn't an option. I'm thinking the room may be too small to divide between them, I mean it is still your bedroom too. Is there no possibility to have one free range in your room and the other elsewhere in the house?

Our indoor rabbits have a whole room which they have permanent access to. It is my daughters bedroom, but she doesn't mind and has a cabin bed with a desk underneath, so they have the full floor space. We have a cage in there, but it's open at all times and just has their litter trays in.

I think if it were me though I would be looking at outside options, but something really secure and fox proof for them. Have you had a chat with your dad about the situation?

I still feel like I'm learning new things all the time btw :) x
 
yea :( I don't want them cooped up like they are now, but i guess i feel with a hutch that way they'd be cooped up fine, but in a much larger space with room to play in and toys. whereas now its like less than 100cm width.. its really not enough and I'm so stuck. before it was perfect with a big dog crate and toys then free run of my room most of the day i have a certain grey one running out now. usually i rotate it.. luna out one night, snoopy out another. that way they can come out for the most amount of time with little or less issue.

to be honest my room really isn't that big. there is space for them to run, but you see I used to stack their hay box on the dog crate along with a few other bunny essentials like pellet ect. now i can't due to the cages so there's more stuff on the floor than there was so less space. originally i wanted a cabin bed, but was told no even though I pointed out i could fit my chest of draws under it and open up more space, but that never happened which could help my current situation but it is what it is.

i've asked my mom about a shed and that's a no go. so in reality if i had them outside, they would just be in a hutch with less time to run around as I can't as easily let them out for 12 hours a day outside, hence why its mostly indoors. and with less human interaction. im not sure how luna would feel about that or cope as her coat is damaged and she's only ever known inside. at 6 months old this poor little thing had never seen or been on grass :(

i'm just unsure how to make it safe and fox proof. a neighbour lost her bunny when a fox basically got to the bun by chewing the mesh. it just makes me concerned as they're my lil babies and i'd forever blame myself if they ever got eaten or killed.

there is some improvement, the past two nights ive just let them out together and they are mostly just ignoring one another. its a start i suppose? not sure what's changed but they seem more content. if anything theyre currently trying to dig on the same spot of blanket lol.
 
I, too, am very new to being a rabbit owner, but I have been reading your thread and, even if I don't have much more than sympathy to offer, I wanted to post to say how sorry I am you are having such problems. I worry constantly about whether I'm doing the right thing, too - ultimately, if you're worrying about it, you're probably a pretty good owner! Circumstances may just be against you at the moment.

I don't know whether this might be useful/possible for you, and I don't know whether it's considered 'good practice' or not (I am happy to be told off by someone experienced if this is really a 'never never do this!' type of thing) but as a short term solution, could you try and get a couple of rabbit leads? We have one for Monty, and whilst he's not a fan, and has only used it a couple of times, it does let us take him out in the sun for a run around now and then (unfortunately we're in flats, so no way of securing our outside area, but it at least gives him a bit more space and some fresh air). I appreciate you may not have time to use it much, but even if you could just give one of them half an hour a week outside (while the other gets the bedroom to themselves for a bit) that might help to give them more space/exercise and let you feel a bit happier about them?
 
thank you Monty!

I do have a rabbit harness for them both, but then i'm not sure how i feel about letting them run with no supervision. Luna likes to jump on top of the cages getting herself stuck (and injuring herself, thank you, i needed a £50 vet bill after £200 for snoopy). the amount of times she's tried to jump from my bed onto a shelf, my chest of drawers, into the hay box. she managed to rip a dew claw off doing this once. not the first time she's done it though, she's managed to rip off two dew claws in her 2 year lifespan :lol:

if anything luna loves having her harness on. she fights me for around her neck but sits still and once its on its like its not even there! snoopy is the more angry one lol. he constantly tries to rip it off.
 
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