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Help please - sick rabbit, vet cannot resolve

It looks like Toffee and Tom made your decision for you :)

2/3 of a coat is still quite something, and with the body heat of Toffee he probably feels a lot more comfortable and secure. I think it's wise of you to do what you've done x

Thanks that means a lot from someone with lots of experience with rabbits.
 
If the vet tomorrow has no answers, I'm not sure where we are going with this. He clearly can't remain like this. Surely it would be worth trying some sort of treatment, even if it is best guess with a penicillin or something, wouldn't it ? If it doesn't work, we're still at the same point of putting him to sleep. I just wish we could tell how much pain he was in.


As I mentioned in a previous post regarding your emergency vet and the Metacam dose, I would hope the vet tomorrow will give a decent dose of painkiller to see how Tom responds. And yes, possibly penicillin injections if he feels they will help him - though they aren't a quick fix.

Getting weight on him seems to be important too, as this will boost the immune system, but it's difficult to do, I know.

Hoping the specialist has some results and therefore some way forward for you and Tom.

Will you be taking Toffee along too?
 
We hadn't been using the Recovery as he was eating well but maybe we should be using both to get the weight back on. The other issue is his mobility / balance. Nobody has been able to explain why he overnight had a change of gait and carries his rear end so high when hopping around. We were nervous of giving him the Metacam orally as it seemed to make him very drowsy and go off his food after 1 dose. Could have been coincedence. Tried to persuade local vet to let us take injections away but she felt no Metacam other than 1 weak dose due to the kidney function indication. He has not had any pain killers in the 3-4 weeks he has had this. We also need to stop the diarrhoea. Perhaps liquid feeds would help in this regard. I feel positive about trying to help him but it not sure how the vet will think. He looks in a sorry state really and is always quite subdude at the vets so appears worse.
 
We hadn't been using the Recovery as he was eating well but maybe we should be using both to get the weight back on. The other issue is his mobility / balance. Nobody has been able to explain why he overnight had a change of gait and carries his rear end so high when hopping around. We were nervous of giving him the Metacam orally as it seemed to make him very drowsy and go off his food after 1 dose. Could have been coincedence. Tried to persuade local vet to let us take injections away but she felt no Metacam other than 1 weak dose due to the kidney function indication. He has not had any pain killers in the 3-4 weeks he has had this. We also need to stop the diarrhoea. Perhaps liquid feeds would help in this regard. I feel positive about trying to help him but it not sure how the vet will think. He looks in a sorry state really and is always quite subdude at the vets so appears worse.


Yes, I would feed the Recovery as well as letting him eat all he wants. Porridge is good also.

Balance issues could be connected with an ear infection:

http://www.veterinarywebinars.com/m...oads/2016/03/Study_Notes_Ear_Nose_Rabbits.pdf

It maybe he had a reaction to the Metacam, but it's not usual for a rabbit to be drowsy and go off his food. It's a Non Steroidal Anti Inflammatory, like our Ibuprofen, so it would work in a similar way to that. If he's on Ranitidine then it shouldn't upset his tummy at all. Many rabbits love the taste :)

Carrying his rear end high could be due to some spinal issue, arthritis, or a rabbit trying to keep from sitting in soiled fur (they hold their back end up to stop the muck from spreading, if that makes sense)

There are lots of versions of diarrhoea, and perhaps it would be good to take a photo and a sample to the vet when you go.

http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/poop.html

http://rabbit.org/soft-stools/

Could be parasites, or a bacterial infection.

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/GI_diseases/Generalities/Enteritis_en.htm

Stress can cause it, or a diet low in fibre.

http://www.netvet.co.uk/rabbits/diarrhoea.htm
 
Update: Vet didn't have any new results back; still awaiting Rabbit syphallis. However, the EC was not negative as the voicemail that we received, it was a "false positive" so he could have that. A treatment of Panacur has been started today. Tom is quite weak though this morning. He was OK through the night (I checked on him twice in the night and it was very cold outside - down to 1degC or so. He was fine a 7am but then at around 7:30 he was on his side seemingly asleep but took a long time to stir (I had to touch his nose to wake him up) and then struggled to get up. Vet injected Ranatadine but it doesn't seem to have made him hungry like usual.
We will keep on the Recovery and the Panacur and hope for the best.

Syphallis result expected Thursday. We did discuss taking the gamble and treating for Syphallis anyway but vet said the risk was severe diarrhoea and left it for us to decide. We didn't know what to do but decided to try the Panacur first and the Recovery and hope he puts weight on.

Tom is now only 1kg and is supposed to be 2kg. I think we are losing. Very sad.
 
Update: Vet didn't have any new results back; still awaiting Rabbit syphallis. However, the EC was not negative as the voicemail that we received, it was a "false positive" so he could have that. A treatment of Panacur has been started today. Tom is quite weak though this morning. He was OK through the night (I checked on him twice in the night and it was very cold outside - down to 1degC or so. He was fine a 7am but then at around 7:30 he was on his side seemingly asleep but took a long time to stir (I had to touch his nose to wake him up) and then struggled to get up. Vet injected Ranatadine but it doesn't seem to have made him hungry like usual.
We will keep on the Recovery and the Panacur and hope for the best.

Syphallis result expected Thursday. We did discuss taking the gamble and treating for Syphallis anyway but vet said the risk was severe diarrhoea and left it for us to decide. We didn't know what to do but decided to try the Panacur first and the Recovery and hope he puts weight on.

Tom is now only 1kg and is supposed to be 2kg. I think we are losing. Very sad.


I'm sorry you're no further forward :(

I expect Tom is quite weak from his weight loss as much as anything. Is he drinking OK - not dehydrated? The vet could give fluids - that always makes a bun feel better.

I don't understand the risk of severe diarrhoea with treatment for Syphilis? It's a penicillin injection, and they are usually incredibly well tolerated in rabbits. An injection by-passes the gut (which is what would cause the issue) and has benefits without the drawbacks ...

A steroid injection, though controversial, might be indicated in Tom's case. It would most likely make him hungry and want to eat, and in addition make him feel better.

You saw a specialist though - these are just my thoughts based on what you've said about Tom.

Still sending vibes x
 
I have been quietly watching your thread and just wanted to say that I'm sorry that Tom is so poorly.
I've never used Penicillin myself but I have spoken to many people that have over the last year and none of them have had any problems from it.
I vaguely remember seeing a post on the Disabled Rabbits page on fb where a rabbit had lost a lot of fur and they couldn't figure out why. If you are on fb then it might be a good group for you to join, there are members from all around the world that have seen many different things. Maybe you will get lucky and someone will have seen something similar in their own rabbit.
I really hope that you get some answers soon and that Tom starts to feel better.
Xxxx
 
I'm sorry you're no further forward :(

I expect Tom is quite weak from his weight loss as much as anything. Is he drinking OK - not dehydrated? The vet could give fluids - that always makes a bun feel better.

I don't understand the risk of severe diarrhoea with treatment for Syphilis? It's a penicillin injection, and they are usually incredibly well tolerated in rabbits. An injection by-passes the gut (which is what would cause the issue) and has benefits without the drawbacks ...

A steroid injection, though controversial, might be indicated in Tom's case. It would most likely make him hungry and want to eat, and in addition make him feel better.

You saw a specialist though - these are just my thoughts based on what you've said about Tom.

Still sending vibes x

Actually, you're correct there. The specialist did mention giving him a steroid injection but thinking back now, I don't think he gave it too him. We talked around so many options and possible diagnoses that I think he forgot.
I did ask him how many rabbits he'd treated for syphallis had displayed the diarrhoea reaction and he said none but added that he'd never treated a rabbit with that drug who was iill as Tom. As Tom already had diarrhoea we decided not to risk it.
I actually wishing now that we'd given it a go. He didn't mention that it would be penicillin. If he had I may have gone for it as I remember all you folks saying it was the treatment of choice and reliable.

To be fair to the vet, half the problem is that he doesn't have the classic signs of either EC or syphallis oro anything else. He suspects there are a number of issues. The EC one though would be consistent with the slight renal/kidney deficiency.
 
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Actually, you're correct there. The specialist did mention giving him a steroid injection but thinking back now, I don't think he gave it too him. We talked around so many options and possible diagnoses that I think he forgot.
I did ask him how many rabbits he'd treated for syphallis had displayed the diarrhoea reaction and he said none but added that he'd never treated a rabbit with that drug who was iill as Tom. As Tom already had diarrhoea we decided not to risk it.
I actually wishing now that we'd given it a go. He didn't mention that it would be penicillin. If he had I may have gone for it as I remember all you folks saying it was the treatment of choice and reliable.

To be fair to the vet, half the problem is that he doesn't have the classic signs of either EC or syphallis oro anything else. He suspects there are a number of issues. The EC one though would be consistent with the slight renal/kidney deficiency.


Would you think of taking Tom back for that steroid injection? I can understand the reluctance re penicillin. I don't think it would do any harm, but beefing him up (and his immune) would be the order of the day, so he can rally against any infection.

The diarrhoea is a real bummer. I guess a sample wasn't taken to see what might be causing it?

Without a strong immune, or sufficient body weight, it's difficult for Tom to rally.

How are you doing in yourselves with all this?
 
Hi, we're OK. I called the vet to check and it was actually that they had run out of the steroid injection that was the issue - bad luck for us.
We've managed to get nearly a full day's dose of Recovery into him today - he seems to be OK with taking it and the diarrhoea has stopped, which is good so long as normal stools come out, not seen any yet.
We have reconfigured the hutch this afternoon so that Tom and Toffee can live upstairs again. That was their favourite place when it was cold or bad weather as it was more sheltered and off the floor but with Tom being so wobbly he hasn't felt like trying the ramp for a few weeks now. I have closed off the access hole from the top down the ramp with some board and screwed it all down so no danger of Tom falling down the ramp. Toffee is a bit miffed she can't get down but there we go. He seems happier and more cosy up there and I am sure it will be much warmer for him tonight as expected to be cold again.
He is very weak but can still get himself around. Unfortunatey Toffee can be a bit careless when going past him and knock him over, which we are going to have to monitor. I don't want to separate them as she gives him comfort but we'll have to see.
I'm feeling less stressed about it all as with the Recovery going in, I don't feel I need to be out there feeding him every hour and trying to make sure Toffee doesn't pinch all his food.
Not seen him drink today although not been watching as regularly as working. We have tried syringing in some and I wet all the greens before he eats them. Not sure how much he needs.
 
Will the vets get the steroids in for him? He'll be gettng quite a lot of fluids through recovery feeds & wet greens though I syringe a little water too. Still thinking of you guys
 
Hi, we're OK. I called the vet to check and it was actually that they had run out of the steroid injection that was the issue - bad luck for us.
We've managed to get nearly a full day's dose of Recovery into him today - he seems to be OK with taking it and the diarrhoea has stopped, which is good so long as normal stools come out, not seen any yet.
We have reconfigured the hutch this afternoon so that Tom and Toffee can live upstairs again. That was their favourite place when it was cold or bad weather as it was more sheltered and off the floor but with Tom being so wobbly he hasn't felt like trying the ramp for a few weeks now. I have closed off the access hole from the top down the ramp with some board and screwed it all down so no danger of Tom falling down the ramp. Toffee is a bit miffed she can't get down but there we go. He seems happier and more cosy up there and I am sure it will be much warmer for him tonight as expected to be cold again.
He is very weak but can still get himself around. Unfortunatey Toffee can be a bit careless when going past him and knock him over, which we are going to have to monitor. I don't want to separate them as she gives him comfort but we'll have to see.
I'm feeling less stressed about it all as with the Recovery going in, I don't feel I need to be out there feeding him every hour and trying to make sure Toffee doesn't pinch all his food.
Not seen him drink today although not been watching as regularly as working. We have tried syringing in some and I wet all the greens before he eats them. Not sure how much he needs.


Oh I see. Shame about the steroid, perhaps another time.

I'm glad you've managed to feed him up so well. Yes I can imagine Toffee is miffed, but she has caring duties at the moment :)

The weather has turned very cold right now, I don't know how long it's supposed to last?

He will have had plenty of fluid with the Recovery food and wet veg, so I'm sure he will be doing OK for hydration. You seem to have covered looking after him rather well today, despite working and doing all the other stuff you need to do. It's wearing - when they are poorly it seems to grind me down quite quickly.

I'm so glad his diarrhoea has stopped - hoping for normal poos now :)
 
Thanks for the support everyone.
We managed 86ml of Recovery today. We had a gentle start with only 18ml yesterday.
Got 8ml of water in too this evening.
So good not to have the diarrhoea. It was starting to cause sores on his feet.
The skin on my hands is red raw with all the hand washing. Don't like to use latex gloves as it pulls more of his fur out.
Hoping he sleeps better in his box upstairs (should feel warmer and safer for him) and the Recovery and Panacur start doing their thing.
Cold spell expected to last for a few days yet I think, hence why I modified the hutch.
Thanks all for your support - it means a lot.

We are scheduled to see Specialist on Friday next when results from Sphyallis should be back. It would be good to see some weight increase from the Recovery by then. If you are trying to increase weight, should you administer more Recovery than their body weight states?

The vet charged us £37 for 3 sachets of Recovery. I've since found it online for around £17 for a box of 10 ! That's some markup!
 
Thanks for the support everyone.
We managed 86ml of Recovery today. We had a gentle start with only 18ml yesterday.
Got 8ml of water in too this evening.
So good not to have the diarrhoea. It was starting to cause sores on his feet.
The skin on my hands is red raw with all the hand washing. Don't like to use latex gloves as it pulls more of his fur out.
Hoping he sleeps better in his box upstairs (should feel warmer and safer for him) and the Recovery and Panacur start doing their thing.
Cold spell expected to last for a few days yet I think, hence why I modified the hutch.
Thanks all for your support - it means a lot.

We are scheduled to see Specialist on Friday next when results from Sphyallis should be back. It would be good to see some weight increase from the Recovery by then. If you are trying to increase weight, should you administer more Recovery than their body weight states?

The vet charged us £37 for 3 sachets of Recovery. I've since found it online for around £17 for a box of 10 ! That's some markup!


You're doing really well with the Recovery Food! To be honest, I never measure it out, but I give a rabbit as much as they will eat at a sitting.
86 ml is mega and will be good for him :)

Is it Friday of *this* week you're seeing the Specialist? I know steroids are a bit controversial - they should increase his appetite and make him feel better. They also reduce the activity of the immune system which may leave him open to whatever may be going on for him (possible infection?). And I understand this could be quite complicated in his case, poor wee soul. I guess the vet could give Baytril antibiotic cover at the same time - perhaps he would be happier with oral Baytril than injectable penicillin at the moment? Just random thoughts .....
 
If your bunny is taking the recovery feed well, then I would allow him to eat more of it even if he is eating a good amount provided you give it throughout the day. Some bunnies are more efficient than others at converting food to energy and it makes even more sense to give a bunny more feed if some of the energy is being used to keep the bunny warm.

I am sending you and Tom more vibes for a positive result.

I concur with MightyMax that it is always good to have recovery food on hand. I also have fluids and a bit of pain med on hand.
As with any treatment, the vet and you will want to discuss the pros and cons of using steroids.

It is good to hear you were able to modify the hutch so he is warmer.
 
Thanks for the support everyone.
We managed 86ml of Recovery today. We had a gentle start with only 18ml yesterday.
Got 8ml of water in too this evening.
So good not to have the diarrhoea. It was starting to cause sores on his feet.
The skin on my hands is red raw with all the hand washing. Don't like to use latex gloves as it pulls more of his fur out.
Hoping he sleeps better in his box upstairs (should feel warmer and safer for him) and the Recovery and Panacur start doing their thing.
Cold spell expected to last for a few days yet I think, hence why I modified the hutch.
Thanks all for your support - it means a lot.

We are scheduled to see Specialist on Friday next when results from Sphyallis should be back. It would be good to see some weight increase from the Recovery by then. If you are trying to increase weight, should you administer more Recovery than their body weight states?

The vet charged us £37 for 3 sachets of Recovery. I've since found it online for around £17 for a box of 10 ! That's some markup!

Tom is certainly a fighter. Given that he has been having diarrhoea I completely understand why the Vet did not want to start him on Penicillin without confirmed need from the blood test results.In Tom's case risks would outweigh any possible benefits.

These may be useful to keep in stock:

http://www.vetuk.co.uk/rabbit-suppl.../burgess-excel-dualcare-recovery-diet-p-20934

How is Mr T doing today ?
 
I've been thinking of Tom and sending lots more vibes for him. It sounds like you are doing a great job looking after him so well :thumb:
 
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