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Help please - sick rabbit, vet cannot resolve

I'm sorry to hear Tom is struggling & really feel for you - getting a diagnosis & decent treatment plan is really stressful. I know (or think - I read this thread last night when it was late) he hasn't got a diagnosis for sebaceous adentitis but I do notice some similarities to Tom & Ralph (my bunny). This was many years ago & I really wish I could remember the ins & outs of his treatment. I recall the specialist we saw saying the sebaceous adentis was most likely secondary to something else going on but we never really did establish what.

What was apparent was that Ralph had become intolerant to almost all foods. He had very bad diarrohea (excuse spelling). Ultimately his diet was confined to just herbs & hay (I suspect if it happened now my vet may have also recommended forage). I felt so guilty as he looked & acted starving. I remember calling my vet & explaining how hungry he was. She said I could try nuggets again & almost instant he relapsed in to really bad diarrohea. However, the key thing is with his little cocktail of drugs (if I recall correctly he was on steroids, metacam & baytril) & dietary changes he did get better & his skin cleared up. Of course all bunnies are different but I wanted to share what I can remember of Ralph's experience in case it helps somewhere down the line.
 
ToffTom said:
Tom couldn't get himself up this morning. He was lying on his side when I went out to the hutch, seemingly sleeping. Our other rabbit brushed against him and I talked to him quietly he started trying to get up (moving his legs etc) but couldn't get up off his side. Once I'd helped him up he was OK and could move around but this is not a good sign. I'm very worried about him.
Going to vets today at 9:30 to get him looked at and pain killer injection at least. Hoping they will let us have pain killing injections to administer daily or so but suspect we won't be allowed to have those. I'm seriously concerned Tuesday is going to be too late for him.
Click to expand...

:cry:

I really hope that the Vet can help him xx
 
ToffTom said:
Tom couldn't get himself up this morning. He was lying on his side when I went out to the hutch, seemingly sleeping. Our other rabbit brushed against him and I talked to him quietly he started trying to get up (moving his legs etc) but couldn't get up off his side. Once I'd helped him up he was OK and could move around but this is not a good sign. I'm very worried about him.
Going to vets today at 9:30 to get him looked at and pain killer injection at least. Hoping they will let us have pain killing injections to administer daily or so but suspect we won't be allowed to have those. I'm seriously concerned Tuesday is going to be too late for him.
Click to expand...


My thoughts are with you, as they have been since we communicated last night.

Strength for you and vibes for Tom x
 
Hello, yes he is still with us just but in a bad state. Friday was a good day, he was eating grass and went nearly all the way down his run gradually eating as he went, which was lovely to see. He hasn't been far out of the covered end for a while. Then Saturday morning I found him on his side in the hutch adn he didn't seem to be able to get up. I helped him up and he was OK again.
Took him to our local emergency vets (specialist not available) and saw a vet we've not seen before who was rather opinionated and arrogant nad made me feel awful - like we hadn't considered that he was in a poor state and had we considered his quality of life etc etc. She obviously doesn't know the hours and hours of bottom cleaning, eye cleaning, hutch cleanouts 3 times a day and foraging around the garden after dark for dandelion leaves with a torch to keep him going.
Good news was that he hadn't lost any weight but he is still only 1.25kg, whereas he should be around 2kg !

We specifically wanted to know about pain relief and she would only prescribe a low dose as one of the test results that has come back saying minor kidney function issue. Not sure how much she gave him but seemingly no difference. NOt sure if that means his is in little pain (unlikely) or if she gave such a low dose it was unaffective.

Still Saturday night, the diarrhoea seemed to have stopped so that was a result at least and Sunday I felt he was a bit stronger when I was cleaning his back end but he is still painfully thin.
He is not eating grass again and has not eaten hay for weeks. We are keeping him going by hand feeding cabbage and dandelion (which he wolfs down) and any rabbit cereal that he will eat. He is still enjoying being with his companion and snuggling up with her but we have had to separate them now and again or she pinches all of his food. I have been off work over Easter and it was awful having to go back to work today as I could not hand feed him every hour as I have been.

Tests back from the specialist so far show EC as a negative, E (something else) as a negative. So none the wiser at the moment.

Unfortunately diarrohea was back again Sunday and today. I keep cleaning him and trying to remove as much urine from his coat but his fur is not attached that well anymore and I wonder if I am just stressing him out more that it benefits him. Fly strike is a big worry though.

We have an appointment at 10:20 tomorrow with the specialist and pray that the other results are back and we can get him some treatment. I don't think we can keep him going much longer. He is fighting but must be feeling miserable. We are constantly questioning whether we should put him down or keep fighting with him. This is so hard and makes me very sad. Our children have been quite neglected over the holidays as we have had to stay home and nurse poor Tom but they are very understanding.

His diet is what he will eat, which is not ideal: cabbage, celery and dandelion and a few cereal flakes. All not good for diarrhoea I suspect.

He has been fighting this for a month now and I am so frustrated that we can't work out what it is and haven't given him any treatment other than Renitidine (which he is now on orally twice a day).

Hoping for a miracle tomorrow.
 
Last edited:
Thankyou for updating, I'm sorry he's still struggling :cry: I really hope that the vet can help him tomorrow. Sending lots of vibes for him xx
 
Thanks. One question I do have is with regard to how we handle our two rabbits for cleaning if the have a dirty bottom or need nails clipping. I read on line that if you turn the rabbit on their back they go into a sleepy state and both of ours do that, so that's what we have always done. It seems safer as they don't struggle and seem sleepy. As soon as you turn the, back over they go back to normal. What I have been wondering is, can that upset their gut or anything else. Should we not be doing that ? We've been doing it for years when necessary but others seem to use the wrap in towel technique. Hope we haven't been doing anything wrong !
 
ToffTom said:
Hello, yes he is still with us just but in a bad state. Friday was a good day, he was eating grass and went nearly all the way down his run gradually eating as he went, which was lovely to see. He hasn't been far out of the covered end for a while. Then Saturday morning I found him on his side in the hutch adn he didn't seem to be able to get up. I helped him up and he was OK again.
Took him to our local emergency vets (specialist not available) and saw a vet we've not seen before who was rather opinionated and arrogant nad made me feel awful - like we hadn't considered that he was in a poor state and had we considered his quality of life etc etc. She obviously doesn't know the hours and hours of bottom cleaning, eye cleaning, hutch cleanouts 3 times a day and foraging around the garden after dark for dandelion leaves with a torch to keep him going.
Good news was that he hadn't lost any weight but he is still only 1.25kg, whereas he should be around 2kg !

We specifically wanted to know about pain relief and she would only prescribe a low dose as one of the test results that has come back saying minor kidney function issue. Not sure how much she gave him but seemingly no difference. NOt sure if that means his is in little pain (unlikely) or if she gave such a low dose it was unaffective.

Still Saturday night, the diarrhoea seemed to have stopped so that was a result at least and Sunday I felt he was a bit stronger when I was cleaning his back end but he is still painfully thin.
He is not eating grass again and has not eaten hay for weeks. We are keeping him going by hand feeding cabbage and dandelion (which he wolfs down) and any rabbit cereal that he will eat. He is still enjoying being with his companion and snuggling up with her but we have had to separate them now and again or she pinches all of his food. I have been off work over Easter and it was awful having to go back to work today as I could not hand feed him every hour as I have been.

Tests back from the specialist so far show EC as a negative, E (something else) as a negative. So none the wiser at the moment.

Unfortunately diarrohea was back again Sunday and today. I keep cleaning him and trying to remove as much urine from his coat but his fur is not attached that well anymore and I wonder if I am just stressing him out more that it benefits him. Fly strike is a big worry though.

We have an appointment at 10:20 tomorrow with the specialist and pray that the other results are back and we can get him some treatment. I don't think we can keep him going much longer. He is fighting but must be feeling miserable. We are constantly questioning whether we should put him down or keep fighting with him. This is so hard and makes me very sad. Our children have been quite neglected over the holidays as we have had to stay home and nurse poor Tom but they are very understanding.

His diet is what he will eat, which is not ideal: cabbage, celery and dandelion and a few cereal flakes. All not good for diarrhoea I suspect.

He has been fighting this for a month now and I am so frustrated that we can't work out what it is and haven't given him any treatment other than Renitidine (which he is now on orally twice a day).

Hoping for a miracle tomorrow.
Click to expand...


Thank you so much for updating.

You have all had, and are having, a very tough time with Tom. He's getting the very best of care from you, but I'm disappointed given his condition that the vet won't provide more pain relief to cover him. Metacam doesn't always work wonders with bunnies, and Tramadol and other pain killers are good. If you and Tom decide to fight on after seeing the specialist and getting the results tomorrow I have no doubt this will be considered.

Yes, probably what he's eating is causing his diarrhoea but what can you do? Until something helps him to turn a corner you have to feed him what he will eat.

Thank you so much for your PM. I shall be thinking of you all tomorrow x
 
ToffTom said:
Thanks. One question I do have is with regard to how we handle our two rabbits for cleaning if the have a dirty bottom or need nails clipping. I read on line that if you turn the rabbit on their back they go into a sleepy state and both of ours do that, so that's what we have always done. It seems safer as they don't struggle and seem sleepy. As soon as you turn the, back over they go back to normal. What I have been wondering is, can that upset their gut or anything else. Should we not be doing that ? We've been doing it for years when necessary but others seem to use the wrap in towel technique. Hope we haven't been doing anything wrong !
Click to expand...


Regards laying a rabbit on it's back - it's the subject of great debate! It's also called 'trancing' and can be quite stressful for a rabbit.

A retired rabbit vet, Frances Harcourt Brown, caused a great stir at a conference I attended by suggesting that it was useful to use 'tonic immobility' under some circumstances. It certainly divides the crowd.

Some info here:

http://www.rabbitwelfare.co.uk/?section=policies.html

Tonic Immobility / trancing

Tonic Immobility, often referred to as "Trancing" or "Hypnotising", is a technique for handling rabbits that has been around for many years. It takes advantage of the rabbits' tendency, as a prey species, to "play dead" and stay immobile when placed in a vulnerable position, on its back. In studies, behavioural observation (facial expression, ear position etc) and physiological monitoring (heart rate and stress hormone levels) suggest that the rabbits are both well aware of their surroundings, and are exhibiting a fear response rather than being calmed by the position. It is also very important to note that, even if they do not react, they are still perfectly capable of feeling pain. Although the resulting immobility makes procedures easier for the owner, and repeated use appears to make it easier to perform in the rabbit, it is not good welfare practice to use this technique in prey species. There are some circumstances (for example, non painful procedures such as radiography in sick rabbits with possible gastrointestinal obstruction), where it can allow diagnostic xrays to be taken, and it can then literally be a lifesaver to have the option. However, this should be as a last resort, and not as part of a routine groom or check up. For these reasons, the RWAF does not recommend its use for grooming purposes.
 
Remembered that we had Recovery liquid feed so we just managed to get around 18ml of that into him too. Hoping that there are some nutrients in it that will help him and some fibre. Good news was that no diarrhoea. Hoping that doesn't been his bowels have stopped moving. Whilst we were feeding him, I could hear his stomach burbling a little bit. When I put him back in his hutch with Toffee, he had a stomach grumble sort of noise and it seemed to cause him to whimper a bit. Hopefully just wind.
Other issue is that it is supposed to get very cold here tonight, like 2degC and our rabbits live outside. The hutch is completely covered with a blanket and plastic sheeting at night to keep out the weather and cold, except for a smallish gap to let fresh air in. With Tom having lost lots of fur, wondering if we should bring him inside. For time being I have piled loads of straw in there for them and hoping Toffee huddles together with him. Think the house could be too hot for him.
 
Yes as MM said FHB would use this method for conscious xrays & such - she also pointed out the difference in using this method gently & with love (as I know you'll do this with Tom & your other bunnies) compared to research where rabbits were scuffed & put on their backs. Of course the research group showed the rabbits demonstrating signs of psychological & physical stress...as you'd expect. A rabbit turned gently on its back to help with whatever needs is much more relaxed & will accept food much of the time - as FHB showed in photos & video at the above conference. I honestly don't think there is any way this is contributing to Tom's condition.

I hope the specialist can offer hope. I shall be thinking of you & sending lots of vibes x
 
ToffTom said:
Remembered that we had Recovery liquid feed so we just managed to get around 18ml of that into him too. Hoping that there are some nutrients in it that will help him and some fibre. Good news was that no diarrhoea. Hoping that doesn't been his bowels have stopped moving. Whilst we were feeding him, I could hear his stomach burbling a little bit. When I put him back in his hutch with Toffee, he had a stomach grumble sort of noise and it seemed to cause him to whimper a bit. Hopefully just wind.
Other issue is that it is supposed to get very cold here tonight, like 2degC and our rabbits live outside. The hutch is completely covered with a blanket and plastic sheeting at night to keep out the weather and cold, except for a smallish gap to let fresh air in. With Tom having lost lots of fur, wondering if we should bring him inside. For time being I have piled loads of straw in there for them and hoping Toffee huddles together with him. Think the house could be too hot for him.
Click to expand...


Have you got the heating on in the house? If not, I don't think it will be too hot for him. Certainly some houses are quite cool indoors.

If it were my bunny, I probably would seriously consider bringing him inside, but with Toffee as well. Don't separate them, that's stressful. It's quite cold for a thin and furless bunny, but you would know best what would stress him least?
 
joey&boo said:
Yes as MM said FHB would use this method for conscious xrays & such - she also pointed out the difference in using this method gently & with love (as I know you'll do this with Tom & your other bunnies) compared to research where rabbits were scuffed & put on their backs. Of course the research group showed the rabbits demonstrating signs of psychological & physical stress...as you'd expect. A rabbit turned gently on its back to help with whatever needs is much more relaxed & will accept food much of the time - as FHB showed in photos & video at the above conference. I honestly don't think there is any way this is contributing to Tom's condition.

I hope the specialist can offer hope. I shall be thinking of you & sending lots of vibes x
Click to expand...

Thank you for that.

Yes I just pick them up and gently turn them over onto their back and hold them either in the well of my lap (for nail trimming) or as you would a baby for cleaning. I have found that they go quite sleepy but will still kick a bit if they are finding it uncomfortable or unpleasant which is good feedback to get. I use an upright position for feeding or medicines so they don't choke of course.
 
MightyMax said:
Have you got the heating on in the house? If not, I don't think it will be too hot for him. Certainly some houses are quite cool indoors.

If it were my bunny, I probably would seriously consider bringing him inside, but with Toffee as well. Don't separate them, that's stressful. It's quite cold for a thin and furless bunny, but you would know best what would stress him least?
Click to expand...

Yes heating goes off around 10:30pm but it is a modern house so never goes much below 16degC. Decided to just pile loads of extra layers on the hutch and when I peeped in, Toffee and Tom were cuddled in together in the straw just like old times so I decided to leave them there. Coming in would be very unusual and quite stressful. When I brought him in for medicines and the feed just now, he started to feel quite hot. Hope that is the right decision for him. He does still have about 2/3rd of his coat across his back so not completely bald.
 
ToffTom said:
Yes heating goes off around 10:30pm but it is a modern house so never goes much below 16degC. Decided to just pile loads of extra layers on the hutch and when I peeped in, Toffee and Tom were cuddled in together in the straw just like old times so I decided to leave them there. Coming in would be very unusual and quite stressful. When I brought him in for medicines and the feed just now, he started to feel quite hot. Hope that is the right decision for him. He does still have about 2/3rd of his coat across his back so not completely bald.
Click to expand...


It looks like Toffee and Tom made your decision for you :)

2/3 of a coat is still quite something, and with the body heat of Toffee he probably feels a lot more comfortable and secure. I think it's wise of you to do what you've done x
 
If the vet tomorrow has no answers, I'm not sure where we are going with this. He clearly can't remain like this. Surely it would be worth trying some sort of treatment, even if it is best guess with a penicillin or something, wouldn't it ? If it doesn't work, we're still at the same point of putting him to sleep. I just wish we could tell how much pain he was in.
 
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