Help please - sick rabbit, vet cannot resolve

MightyMax said:

No, it's only injectable Baytril that causes the irritation and fur loss.

Yes, I did believe you/your vet was talking about something systemic - as was jerseygirl and myself.

A vaccination can also cause some hair loss around the site, as can (as I mentioned) other injectables

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Thanks. Not quite sure myself what is covered by "systemic", presumably anything that affects the entire system ?

Shame it is only the Baytril injections. I was hoping that might have been a possible explanation and that he would recover as it had now been stopped.

Is it worth doing other investigations in your experience: e.g. blood tests, xrays ? Our vet said those could be done but they would probably not be able to treat whatever was diagnosed so little point.

ToffTom said:

Thanks. Not quite sure myself what is covered by "systemic", presumably anything that affects the entire system ?

Shame it is only the Baytril injections. I was hoping that might have been a possible explanation and that he would recover as it had now been stopped.

Is it worth doing other investigations in your experience: e.g. blood tests, xrays ? Our vet said those could be done but they would probably not be able to treat whatever was diagnosed so little point.

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Yes, systemic means affecting the whole system.


I'm not sure what your vet means by not being able to treat what was diagnosed. That would assume he has some knowledge or inkling of what they might find?

It would be your choice and of course these things do not come cheap. I would want investigations if it were my rabbit, and also a second opinion. If only to put my own mind at rest that I had tried everything possible. I would begin with a blood test.

We did discuss a test for a fungal infection and a blood test. The answer on blood test was that it is difficult to get enough blood from a rabbit to test and even then, they would only be able to tell me what was wrong, not treat it. If that is true, there seemed no point distressing Tom further by submitting him for the test. Have you experience of blood tests on rabbits and what it found / how it was treated ?

ToffTom said:

We did discuss a test for a fungal infection and a blood test. The answer on blood test was that it is difficult to get enough blood from a rabbit to test and even then, they would only be able to tell me what was wrong, not treat it. If that is true, there seemed no point distressing Tom further by submitting him for the test. Have you experience of blood tests on rabbits and what it found / how it was treated ?

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Yes, over the 25 years I have kept and fostered hundreds of rabbits I have had loads of blood tests and results. We've also been able to act on them and treat the rabbits.

I do agree that it's hard to get blood from a rabbit. That could be stressful.

I still don't know why your vet says that a blood test would tell you what was wrong, but then the vet wouldn't be able to treat it. How do you know you can't treat something if you don't yet know what the problem is?

Am I missing something here?

ToffTom said:

We did discuss a test for a fungal infection and a blood test. The answer on blood test was that it is difficult to get enough blood from a rabbit to test and even then, they would only be able to tell me what was wrong, not treat it. If that is true, there seemed no point distressing Tom further by submitting him for the test. Have you experience of blood tests on rabbits and what it found / how it was treated ?

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Maybe you could ask your Vet why he/she is apparently so sure that any abnormalities discovered from a blood test would not be able to be treated ? Perhaps the Vet has an inkling of what may be going on (from his/her clinical knowledge/passed experience) and is not wanting to put Tom through expensive diagnostics that would not change the actual situation or what can be done for him ? I dont know, but I dont immediately want to assume that the Vet may not be too 'Rabbit Savvy'.

Blood sampling from a Rabbit is pretty routine for Rabbit Savvy Vets

http://wildpro.twycrosszoo.org/S/00...v_TechniquesRabbit/Blood_sampling_rabbits.htm

I am not sure that a blood test alone would get to the bottom of what may be going on for Tom, but it could be a place to start. Are you able to get to Gloucester ? Jason Burgess is a very Rabbit Savvy Vet. I know it may take about an hour by car, but perhaps it's something doable for you ?

https://woodvets.co.uk/the-team/

I would also ask the Vet if he/she think the skin condition might be sebeceous adenitis

*WARNING GRAPHIC IMAGES ON THIS LINK*

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Skin_diseases/Immune/Adenitis.htm

I really hope that Tom can be helped xx

I should have clarified in my other post. That rabbit was on oral baytril and went nearly bald. The fur loss started a few days after starting on the baytril. It may have been a case of too higher dose, not just hypersensitivity. I'm sorry as I don't recall the exact details.

It sounds as if Tom has been off the baytril for a while now though, correct? And still experiencing fur loss..
What was the treatment for mites you mentioned in your first post? Skin scrappings will not always reveal some species of mites.

Is it worth doing other investigations in your experience: e.g. blood tests, xrays ? Our vet said those could be done but they would probably not be able to treat whatever was diagnosed so little point.

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I think it would be worth it. Blood test *may* be able to detect if there is a hormonal imbalance. X-ray to rule out thymoma, though hair loss associated with that is usually due to exfoliative dermatitsin which case, there is flakey skin. And there is sebacious adenitis (as mentioned above) that can be link with Thymoma.

I would seek out some other opinions. TBH, the vets reluctance to do tests is discouraging. To me, at least.

{{{Tom}}}

I'm so sorry your rabbit is unwell and having such difficult health issues at the moment.

I don't know if baytril is the cause of your rabbits skin condition, but I wouldn't rule it out completely as a possibility. Any medication has the potential to cause a negative reaction, whether injectable or given orally. Your rabbit could be experiencing an allergic reaction to the baytril itself or one of the additives in it, or it's possible it could be something else entirely. I mention this because I know well that rabbits can have negative reactions to medications, as it's happened to one of my rabbits. Septrin is generally considered safe for rabbits, but one of my rabbits had a negative reaction to it that she didn't survive. So a negative reaction to a medication is definitely something to keep in mind.

And as Jane mentioned, sebaceous adenitis might be a possibility to consider as well. I've had a rabbit that had it and it was initially mistaken for a fur mite problem that never seemed to clear up with treatment.

jerseygirl said:

I should have clarified in my other post. That rabbit was on oral baytril and went nearly bald. The fur loss started a few days after starting on the baytril. It may have been a case of too higher dose, not just hypersensitivity. I'm sorry as I don't recall the exact details.

It sounds as if Tom has been off the baytril for a while now though, correct? And still experiencing fur loss..
What was the treatment for mites you mentioned in your first post? Skin scrappings will not always reveal some species of mites.

I think it would be worth it. Blood test *may* be able to detect if there is a hormonal imbalance. X-ray to rule out thymoma, though hair loss associated with that is usually due to exfoliative dermatitsin which case, there is flakey skin. And there is sebacious adenitis (as mentioned above) that can be link with Thymoma.

I would seek out some other opinions. TBH, the vets reluctance to do tests is discouraging. To me, at least.

{{{Tom}}}

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Yes JG, that's what I thought you meant about the Baytril.

As you mention, it could be sebaceous adenitis but I hope Tom's vet will come to a conclusion about the condition and not write it off as untreatable - if that's what he believes it may be.

Evidence here of a promising successful treatment:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19152589

http://wildpro.twycrosszoo.org/S/00dis/Miscellaneous/Sebaceous_adenitis_in_rabbits.htm

Loads of good luck to you and your rabbit

ToffTom said:

We did discuss a test for a fungal infection and a blood test. The answer on blood test was that it is difficult to get enough blood from a rabbit to test and even then, they would only be able to tell me what was wrong, not treat it. If that is true, there seemed no point distressing Tom further by submitting him for the test. Have you experience of blood tests on rabbits and what it found / how it was treated ?

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That's strange. Doughnut had a blood test when she was really unwell and she had a fungi infection and it was treated. I think you need definitely get some expert help, I took her to see an exotic vet specialist.

jerseygirl said:

I should have clarified in my other post. That rabbit was on oral baytril and went nearly bald. The fur loss started a few days after starting on the baytril. It may have been a case of too higher dose, not just hypersensitivity. I'm sorry as I don't recall the exact details.

It sounds as if Tom has been off the baytril for a while now though, correct? And still experiencing fur loss..
What was the treatment for mites you mentioned in your first post? Skin scrappings will not always reveal some species of mites.

I think it would be worth it. Blood test *may* be able to detect if there is a hormonal imbalance. X-ray to rule out thymoma, though hair loss associated with that is usually due to exfoliative dermatitsin which case, there is flakey skin. And there is sebacious adenitis (as mentioned above) that can be link with Thymoma.

I would seek out some other opinions. TBH, the vets reluctance to do tests is discouraging. To me, at least.

{{{Tom}}}

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Oh thanks JerseryGirl, so oral Baytril can cause hair loss. So that is back on as a possible cause. That is good news. I was gutted when an earlier poster said it was only injected Baytril that could cause it.

Tom looks about the same this morning, which is actually an improvement as no new hair loss. The last 3 or 4 days have seen new patches about the size of the palm of your hand appear. So we are really hoping whatever was causing the hair loss has now stopped. The raw skin is gradually healing and going from red to white, which looks a lot less sore. He still isn't hopping well. When he hops along, he is keeping his rear end really high in the air. It may be because of the hair loss on his rear legs causing soreness there. He is also getting it wrong when he tries to jump in or out of the hutch. He falls over sideways a bit but not sure if because he is dizzy or if because of the legs issue.

The treatments at the last visit were Ivermectin (injected) and another injection of an anti-inflamatory.

Thanks for those. You are all so great, putting your time in helping out with this. Tom and I really apperciate it.
I will mention SA to the vet. The pic doesn't look like Tom's skin. He gets a hug bald spot and the skin looks awful, like a layer has completely fallen off and left red raw skin. It must be quite painful for him. After 24hrs or so, it heals up and goes white again. We are just trying to keep everything super clean for him to prevent infection. New bedding every day and regular clean outs of droppings etc.

Although, interesting what is says about the sebacious glands with SA. We did notice Tom's fur felt vaguely damp when he was ill, before all of the fur started falling out. We couldn't find any cause for why he would be damp and put it down to him sweating a bit maybe because he was running a temperature. Can rabbits sweat ?

ToffTom said:

Thanks for those. You are all so great, putting your time in helping out with this. Tom and I really apperciate it.
I will mention SA to the vet. The pic doesn't look like Tom's skin. He gets a hug bald spot and the skin looks awful, like a layer has completely fallen off and left red raw skin. It must be quite painful for him. After 24hrs or so, it heals up and goes white again. We are just trying to keep everything super clean for him to prevent infection. New bedding every day and regular clean outs of droppings etc.

Although, interesting what is says about the sebacious glands with SA. We did notice Tom's fur felt vaguely damp when he was ill, before all of the fur started falling out. We couldn't find any cause for why he would be damp and put it down to him sweating a bit maybe because he was running a temperature. Can rabbits sweat ?

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No, they regulate their body temperature by changing their respiratory rate and via vasodilation of the blood vessels in the ears. The nasal mucosa also play a part.

ToffTom said:

Oh thanks JerseryGirl, so oral Baytril can cause hair loss. So that is back on as a possible cause. That is good news. I was gutted when an earlier poster said it was only injected Baytril that could cause it.

Tom looks about the same this morning, which is actually an improvement as no new hair loss. The last 3 or 4 days have seen new patches about the size of the palm of your hand appear. So we are really hoping whatever was causing the hair loss has now stopped. The raw skin is gradually healing and going from red to white, which looks a lot less sore. He still isn't hopping well. When he hops along, he is keeping his rear end really high in the air. It may be because of the hair loss on his rear legs causing soreness there. He is also getting it wrong when he tries to jump in or out of the hutch. He falls over sideways a bit but not sure if because he is dizzy or if because of the legs issue.

The treatments at the last visit were Ivermectin (injected) and another injection of an anti-inflamatory.

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I'm glad there's been no new fur loss. The loss of balance is something I would want investigated. He sounds like a trooper - carrying on fighting with you alongside him

ToffTom said:

Thanks for those. You are all so great, putting your time in helping out with this. Tom and I really apperciate it.
I will mention SA to the vet. The pic doesn't look like Tom's skin. He gets a hug bald spot and the skin looks awful, like a layer has completely fallen off and left red raw skin. It must be quite painful for him. After 24hrs or so, it heals up and goes white again. We are just trying to keep everything super clean for him to prevent infection. New bedding every day and regular clean outs of droppings etc.

Although, interesting what is says about the sebacious glands with SA. We did notice Tom's fur felt vaguely damp when he was ill, before all of the fur started falling out. We couldn't find any cause for why he would be damp and put it down to him sweating a bit maybe because he was running a temperature. Can rabbits sweat ?

Click to expand...

This is how rabbits regulate their temperature. Their natural body temperature is higher than ours to begin with.

http://www.allearssac.org/pdf/newrabbitpacket_web.pdf
(some great info on this site too!)


Rabbits, like dogs, don’t sweat. They lower their body temperature in two ways: they pant, but even more importantly, they use their ears to dissipate heat. If you look at your bunny’s ears in the light, you’ll be able to see a number of large blood vessels. When it’s warm, they’ll become large and easily detectable. That’s because the blood goes to the ears, where it’s closest to the skin’s surface. The surrounding air then cools the blood down before it passes back into the rest of the body. A rabbit’s normal body temperature is about 102 degrees – still much warmer than the air on a hot day – so the “ears as air conditioners” system works perfectly for them.

ToffTom said:

Oh thanks JerseryGirl, so oral Baytril can cause hair loss. So that is back on as a possible cause. That is good news. I was gutted when an earlier poster said it was only injected Baytril that could cause it.

Tom looks about the same this morning, which is actually an improvement as no new hair loss. The last 3 or 4 days have seen new patches about the size of the palm of your hand appear. So we are really hoping whatever was causing the hair loss has now stopped. The raw skin is gradually healing and going from red to white, which looks a lot less sore. He still isn't hopping well. When he hops along, he is keeping his rear end really high in the air. It may be because of the hair loss on his rear legs causing soreness there. He is also getting it wrong when he tries to jump in or out of the hutch. He falls over sideways a bit but not sure if because he is dizzy or if because of the legs issue.

The treatments at the last visit were Ivermectin (injected) and another injection of an anti-inflamatory.

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As I mentioned before, it was thought to be the cause in that case but it was just the vets best guess at the time. I've not come across other incidents of it in the online community. But the vets can certainly contact the manufacturers or consult with other vets to see if anyone else has seen cases.

Was it only the one ivermectin injection Tom received? Is he due to have more?

If you have noted his skin seemed damp in the past, for whatever reason, it's possible there is a bacterial or fungal skin infection at play also. Do you know if that was checked when they did the skin scraping?

You mention your bunny was still eating, yet is not hopping around much. Did your vet give you anything to treat your bunny for any pain or discomfort he may be having from this skin issue?
You may not know if the sawdust, Baytril, or something else caused this problem. Even if it was the Baytril it may not be the active ingredient but something in the base.
However, I wonder if it would be useful to treat for fungal or other issues before making a decision on his future.

jerseygirl said:

As I mentioned before, it was thought to be the cause in that case but it was just the vets best guess at the time. I've not come across other incidents of it in the online community. But the vets can certainly contact the manufacturers or consult with other vets to see if anyone else has seen cases.

Was it only the one ivermectin injection Tom received? Is he due to have more?

If you have noted his skin seemed damp in the past, for whatever reason, it's possible there is a bacterial or fungal skin infection at play also. Do you know if that was checked when they did the skin scraping?

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Tom is due another Ivermectin injection at 2 weeks from the first. Saw the vet again yesterday and they were quite shocked at the additional hair loss but pleased that he was still eating well and the hair loss had stopped. No new significant hair loss today and he actually hopped out of the hutch this morning on to the patio, which he hasn't done for at least a week. So that's a good sign. His gait is still weird, very much like the one in the video that was linked in a post above.

Our vet suggested going to see an Exotics vet, actually it was Sheila, the one recommended by a poster above. Unfortunately though, Sheila is on maternity leave so we are seeing one of her colleagues who I hope is just as good. That's tomorrow, so I'll let you know what happens.

Tom had an anti-inflammatory injection but no pain killers. I did think of that before but forgot to ask. They suggested vaseline on his legs to stop the skin cracking and being as sore but a previous vet told us better to keep it free from any creams so that he doesn't inject it whilst licking it.

We did discuss fungal tests but they said they would take 3 weeks to culture and come back so we're waiting until tomorrow to see what the exotics vet says first.

I will call and ask about pain killers. Thanks.

ToffTom said:

Tom is due another Ivermectin injection at 2 weeks from the first. Saw the vet again yesterday and they were quite shocked at the additional hair loss but pleased that he was still eating well and the hair loss had stopped. No new significant hair loss today and he actually hopped out of the hutch this morning on to the patio, which he hasn't done for at least a week. So that's a good sign. His gait is still weird, very much like the one in the video that was linked in a post above.

Our vet suggested going to see an Exotics vet, actually it was Sheila, the one recommended by a poster above. Unfortunately though, Sheila is on maternity leave so we are seeing one of her colleagues who I hope is just as good. That's tomorrow, so I'll let you know what happens.

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I'm glad to hear you'll be seeing an Exotics vet - I really hope you get some answers for your lovely little rabbit.

Also pleased there is no significant ahead loss today.

Vibes for Tom

MightyMax said:

I'm glad to hear you'll be seeing an Exotics vet - I really hope you get some answers for your lovely little rabbit.

Also pleased there is no significant ahead loss today.

Vibes for Tom

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Thanks MightMax.

Update: Exotics vet thought it could be a number of things and has recommended a suite of tests including bloods and x-ray on Tuesday next week. He was quite concerned and identified that actually the skin condition is all over him, you just can't see it because of the fur. Tom is likely to lose all of his fur at some point it seems now.

Sebacious Adentitis (which a poster had already suggested above) is suspected and apparently treatments are very limited or experiemental.

Vet recommended Metacam as a pain killer, so he had a dose oral of that yesterday lunch time.

Tom didn't eat too well last night and was refusing the handfuls of grass that I normally give him to boost him up and keep his gut moving. He wasn't eating that well this morning either, only taking food if I put it right under his nose. Metacam has a side effect of lethargy and loss of appetite, so we have stopped that just in case.

He is now looking a bit perkier and will eat cabbage but not much else seems to interest him for some reason. He even pushed the bowl of hard feed and museli away, showing he didn't want it.

Exotic vet is not there today as bank holiday but another vet has suggested Recovery fluid via syringe to give him a boost of vitamins etc.

Has anyone tried "Recovery". It is called "Recovery Liquid Feed".