Would you have your Doe spayed? The discussion continues .. 26 May 2017

daphnephoebe said:

I find it a joke that he is comparing the human reproductive system to a rabbits.
Just makes him seem more like a Douche to me.

There would need to be a mass study across the UK to both disprove him, and prove what plenty of rabbits owners and savvy rabbit vets consider a must in the welfare requirements of a rabbit.

I guess he wants proof that out of 5,000 rabbits, none developed uterine cancer due to being spayed and show what % developed osteoarthritis/osteoporosis and at what age.
Then compare those results to another 5,000 unspayed rabbits.

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It would be difficult mounting such a test I agree. I wonder how the RWAF arrived at their statistics though?

MightyMax said:

It would be difficult mounting such a test I agree. I wonder how the RWAF arrived at their statistics though?

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In all honesty, I have no idea.
I believe it was originally a questionnaire sent to various veterinary practices to get a general idea how many had seen cancer.
However, I've no idea if this is true of false and I'm happy for someone to correct me if I've heard wrongly.

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binkyCodie said:

:roll: :roll: :roll:

it is a well known fact of the risks that come with not neutering, and its incredibly clear on the health benefits. take dogs for instance, most of the female dogs I know that have not been neutered have been a royal pain in the butt. I've also known them all to eventually die due to uterine issues. so out of a small handful of 10 female dogs I have known, they have all died due to their uterus. some had cancers, others had infections. all of them died between the age of 5-11. they could have lived longer, but instead had to be PTS.

just in dogs there are so many health benefits from neutering, and it removes the heats you have to deal with, possible pregnancies than can arise. sometimes dog heats don't come as expected and then you end up with accidental pregnancies. heats are also a pain to deal with, the blood, crying etc. let alone the fact that they're so controlled by hormones they half the time don't listen to you. male dogs are just as bad if you walk them, they're too busy sniffing to care for the command you ask.

that is just in dogs, never mind rabbits which end up with similar conditions. heats do not happen no - but accidental pregnancies can with mating through bars, they're grumpy, territorial. I could go on.

so I strongly disagree.

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Thank you BC - very interesting!

SarahP said:

Interesting stuff...

So is there evidence presented around any of this osteoporosis (in rabbits, not women) link, or is that anecdotal too?

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I don't think this has been covered really, and I am not aware of any research.

I would love to see some, if there is

I would have though vets would have noted an signs of osteoporosis when rabbits have gone in for x-rays. Quite a few of my neutered rabbits have had x-rays for other issues and they have never noticed any sign of osteoporosis, which they will see, they've noted it in some of my hens in the past.
I've never heard of it being an issue in dogs or cats, and cats also excrete calcium in their urine like rabbits.

halfpenny said:

I would have though vets would have noted an signs of osteoporosis when rabbits have gone in for x-rays. Quite a few of my neutered rabbits have had x-rays for other issues and they have never noticed any sign of osteoporosis, which they will see, they've noted it in some of my hens in the past.
I've never heard of it being an issue in dogs or cats, and cats also excrete calcium in their urine like rabbits.

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I agree with you halfpenny. I have never had a vet mention osteoporosis when X-raying my rabbits.

That would also add weight to his case, but he has no statistics on this?

And if any vet might have seen such things happening, don't you think a certain rabbit specialist who saw nothing but rabbits for the last 8 years of her career might have spotted something? I don't understand why someone would continue to argue their case on their own small sample, when one of the world's most eminent rabbit specialists offers a substantiated view to the contrary.

I've never seen bone problems in rabbits in the 36 years I've kept them as pets. Unfortunately, I have seen feminine cancers in un spayed does. It is horrendous. I am so grateful for spaying.

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I have two experiences to share as to why spaying and neutering is important in my opinion

Story #1: When my boy Dunkin went to be neutered it was discovered that he had Cryptorchidism. His testicles were in his abdomen and unable to descend. They had to open up his abdomen to remove them. Males with this condition are more likely to develop testicular cancer (in dogs with the condition they are least 10x more likely). I didn't even know he had the condition. I honestly could have sworn I felt testicles but obviously not!

Story #2: This is a more recent one. One of the volunteers at the rabbit rescue I volunteer at had to say goodbye to his beloved bunny. He loved her so much that he was too afraid to spay her due to the extremely low risk of death during the procedure. She developed uterine cancer and died. Totally heartbreaking!

William said:

personally if it's unhealthy for my pet I wouldn't do it, I wouldn't want to set an example using my pets as tools just for the sake of it when it could put their health at risk. e.g. I only spay female dogs because it's healthier for them, I wouldn't necessarily neuter male dogs unless I had reason to.

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I'm guessing this is directed at the post I made regarding spaying/neutering promoting responsible guardianship. First all, it isn't unhealthy for the pet if you use a rabbit savvy vet and the animal has no underlying medical conditions. Second of all, are you seriously implying I'm using my animals to set an example? Not cool. I listed many other reasons why I spay/neuter, not just that it sets an example. That is just an added bonus. Not getting the procedure is also putting them at risk technically (see my first story). If you only want to spay females and not neuter males, that's your decision and I respect it. Maybe offer me the same courtesy and not imply I use my pets as tools?

Santa said:

And if any vet might have seen such things happening, don't you think a certain rabbit specialist who saw nothing but rabbits for the last 8 years of her career might have spotted something? I don't understand why someone would continue to argue their case on their own small sample, when one of the world's most eminent rabbit specialists offers a substantiated view to the contrary.

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Yes I'm totally with you on that one :thumb:

Fluffybunny54 said:

I've never seen bone problems in rabbits in the 36 years I've kept them as pets. Unfortunately, I have seen feminine cancers in un spayed does. It is horrendous. I am so grateful for spaying.

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Me neither Fluffybunny.

You've been keeping rabbits for a long time :wave:

I just personally cannot see a reason not to spay a doe, or dogs/cats for that matter!

Anaesthetic risk isn't that high, particularly if you go to a rabbit savvy vet. The benefits are overwhelming IMO, reduction of cancer risk and changes in behaviour being the main ones!
I was (of course) an extremely worried bunny mum when I took Flo in for hers, despite the fact I worked at the vets and the vet did all the exotics and I trusted him :lol: Previously to her spay she would lunge at me, grunt, and had quite the tendency to bite!! :shock: After she was a different rabbit...hasn't bitten, grunted or lunged since. The vet also said her uterus looked odd so good thing to remove it. She did get gut stasis after but easily managed and she was herself again after a few days.

Akire said:

I'm guessing this is directed at the post I made regarding spaying/neutering promoting responsible guardianship. First all, it isn't unhealthy for the pet if you use a rabbit savvy vet and the animal has no underlying medical conditions. Second of all, are you seriously implying I'm using my animals to set an example? Not cool. I listed many other reasons why I spay/neuter, not just that it sets an example. That is just an added bonus. Not getting the procedure is also putting them at risk technically (see my first story). If you only want to spay females and not neuter males, that's your decision and I respect it. Maybe offer me the same courtesy and not imply I use my pets as tools?

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I haven't reread the old posts yet but I think I thought either you or whoever I quoted was saying 'whether or not there's health benefits or detriments doesn't really matter since we should neuter anyway because of overpopulation'. I apologize if that's not what you meant. I know a lot of people do think that. I tend to think if you're a responsible owner you should make your own decision based on the pros and cons of what it will do to your pet's health, but then I guess nobody thinks of themselves as an irresponsible owner, so...yeah, probably a lot of accidents would happen if the general population didn't automatically neuter dogs! With rabbits and cats I feel there's really a lot of benefits from neutering/spaying them and not much in the ways of drawbacks so I'd always have them done (but only at the appropriate ages, unless there was a valid reason otherwise).

MightyMax said:

It would be difficult mounting such a test I agree. I wonder how the RWAF arrived at their statistics though?

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I used to wonder the same thing about the 'number of rabbits in rescues'.

FloLo said:

I just personally cannot see a reason not to spay a doe, or dogs/cats for that matter!

Anaesthetic risk isn't that high, particularly if you go to a rabbit savvy vet. The benefits are overwhelming IMO, reduction of cancer risk and changes in behaviour being the main ones!
I was (of course) an extremely worried bunny mum when I took Flo in for hers, despite the fact I worked at the vets and the vet did all the exotics and I trusted him :lol: Previously to her spay she would lunge at me, grunt, and had quite the tendency to bite!! :shock: After she was a different rabbit...hasn't bitten, grunted or lunged since. The vet also said her uterus looked odd so good thing to remove it. She did get gut stasis after but easily managed and she was herself again after a few days.

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Fantastic post FloLo

Lots of female rabbits get a gut slow down after spaying, but with good pain relief and nursing they are back to normal within a few days.

And the 'invisible stitching' means none of the nibbling at stitches and opening wounds which used to go on years ago

I will always spay and neuter. I mainly do it for the behavior reasons. Ive tried to leave bella (conti giant) as long as possible with bleu already neutered but she is now humping him and leaving scenting poos. Poor bleu is mithered to death. she is now booked in to be done. The 2 baby boys are 15 weeks and are being booked in when bella has her spay, they are spraying wee everywhere. I think spay/neutering takes all the stresses and worries away form buns and lets them have a loved up life.

happybun said:

I used to wonder the same thing about the 'number of rabbits in rescues'.

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Rescues are sent questionnaires round to ascertain as accurately as possible the number of rabbits. Though I agree it's probably only a rough guide.

I have no idea how the uterine cancer figures were arrived at, as it would've surely have taken questionnaires from many vets over a period of years? And when was it done?

willow and squiggles said:

I will always spay and neuter. I mainly do it for the behavior reasons. Ive tried to leave bella (conti giant) as long as possible with bleu already neutered but she is now humping him and leaving scenting poos. Poor bleu is mithered to death. she is now booked in to be done. The 2 baby boys are 15 weeks and are being booked in when bella has her spay, they are spraying wee everywhere. I think spay/neutering takes all the stresses and worries away form buns and lets them have a loved up life.

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I think from the point of view of rehoming rabbits, spaying (and castrating) is essential. Having a houserabbit is a lovely thing, both for owner and rabbit, especially if it gives them greater freedom than a hutch and run. But how would you persuade anyone to adopt a houserabbit who sprayed and pooed everywhere?

Spaying and neutering takes a lot of stress out of being a rabbit owner as well, I think

The figure of 80% came from a very limited number (twelve I think) of related laboratory rabbits and it is very dubious whether it could be duplicated in rabbits living a good life. Given the impact of lifestyle on human cancer rates it is reasonable to assume that it would make a difference to rabbits too. The quality of proof you ask of the vet not doing the op is far higher than the standard used to recommend it.

To me the risk of pregnancy and of difficulty keeping herself clean due to a dewlap preventing her reaching her bottom are better reasons to spey and I have always told people this. Behaviour issues except for extreme cases are not a good enough reason. Unspeyed does are actually easier to bond and the range of behaviours they display are not problematic given the right environment.

I have seen quite a few does with problems caused by speying. They are very prone to adhesions which can cause lifelong gut problems (many unexplained gut issues and problems blamed on teeth may actually be due to this) and I have even seen a speyed doe get very nasty mammary tumors. I never lost one during the opp itself but I have lost two afterwards as they never properly recovered from the anaesthetic and another when she opened herself up again by chewing her stitches and died under the second anaesthetic when she was restitched.

This issue is a genuine concern, please don't just dismiss it.

doorkeeper said:

Behaviour issues except for extreme cases are not a good enough reason. Unspeyed does are actually easier to bond and the range of behaviours they display are not problematic given the right environment.

I have seen quite a few does with problems caused by speying. They are very prone to adhesions which can cause lifelong gut problems (many unexplained gut issues and problems blamed on teeth may actually be due to this) and I have even seen a speyed doe get very nasty mammary tumors. I never lost one during the opp itself but I have lost two afterwards as they never properly recovered from the anaesthetic and another when she opened herself up again by chewing her stitches and died under the second anaesthetic when she was restitched.

This issue is a genuine concern, please don't just dismiss it.

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I would personally disagree with this...my Flo was nice enough prior to her spay, would let me give her head rubs etc...but she would lunge at me if I was in the hutch and bite people who weren't me. Since spaying she is possibly the loveliest rabbit on earth, hasn't lunged or bitten since. I think this is much better for her welfare, she lets me give her medication (she has needed lots) which probably would have been impossible before. She is also very good at the vets now in comparison to before where she used to scream, last year the vet even did a conscious x-ray of her chest! No need for sedation which is better for her.

I was going to bond her with my pair of neutered males (very placid boys) before she was spayed and she tried to beat them up!
Since she was spayed, I had her bonded her with Tubsy she displayed no aggressive behaviour whatsoever!

Concerning problems from spaying, there are risks with any sort of surgery. I'm a vet nurse and I see such complicated surgery all the time, cat brain surgery, dog lung lobe removal...riskier surgeries and more often than not they go home happy!
Adhesions can occur after any abdominal surgery in rabbits, cats, dogs, humans.
Mammary tumours are unlikely to occur if spayed, though may have started prior to spay? Or from uterus stump?
In veterinary anaesthesia, recovery period is always the most riskiest period. Some individuals just have a bad reaction, unfortunately that's just the way it is and cannot be predicted. Flo was induced for anaesthesia the other day for a dental, same drugs as she always has had, she nearly crashed - stopped breathing, went bradycardic, had to be intubated immediately and ventilated as they reversed the drugs. It was random, can't predict that.
Most vets use intradermal stitches now for routine procedures such as spaying, so they dissolve and can't be pulled out.

Not dismissing it...IMO there are a lot more pros than cons, and I'm sure many veterinary professionals would agree. Risks with any surgery/anaesthetic, spay or otherwise.