Would you have your Doe spayed? The discussion continues .. 26 May 2017

binkyCodie said:

indeed. from trying to rehab her (shes scared of just about everything, including grass at first) to going through that lol.

I really hope she doesn't have to ever have to go through another GA. because otherwise I know I need £300 extra just for after if it would repeat itself if it was the GA that reacted badly lol. but since i've had her and she had her dental, touch wood, shes never had any big issues. no stasis, zilch. just an eye ulcer and ripping her dew claws off-twice :roll:

Click to expand...

She's quite a handful :shock:

She's incredibly lucky to have you fighting her corner. I take my hat off to you BC xx

Thanks for posting this MightyMax, it's an interested read. Those who go against the grain and the current way of thinking tend to get it pretty hard, in any group. The whole point of husbandry is that it's constantly changing as we learn and discover more. Husbandry methods for any animal will never be the same in 10 years from now, it is constantly progressing. I like to keep an open mind to that, even if it goes against the grain - since every progression starts with just one discovery, and builds from there.

Of course, we'd have to see more evidence of it to adopt a different way of thinking and doing things, as with every new progression. It is however something I've wondered about a lot, and will keep an eye on for further updates. Thanks again :thumb: x

JessBun said:

Thanks for posting this MightyMax, it's an interested read. Those who go against the grain and the current way of thinking tend to get it pretty hard, in any group. The whole point of husbandry is that it's constantly changing as we learn and discover more. Husbandry methods for any animal will never be the same in 10 years from now, it is constantly progressing. I like to keep an open mind to that, even if it goes against the grain - since every progression starts with just one discovery, and builds from there.

Of course, we'd have to see more evidence of it to adopt a different way of thinking and doing things, as with every new progression. It is however something I've wondered about a lot, and will keep an eye on for further updates. Thanks again :thumb: x

Click to expand...

You were up late JessBun - how are you?

I love your posts, as they so often sum up what I feel.

Going against the grain - yes, never easy. Invites hostility.
But as you rightly say, every progression has to begin somewhere

There's been a very interesting and detailed reply posted to Frances's Facebook page which draws attention to the fact that sex hormones are involved in protection against osteoporosis. This is the same as for humans, which is why post-menopausal women are more at risk.

Would there be an argument against neutering (males and females) on this basis?

It's a balancing act - rabbits absorb a lot of calcium and can even suffer from an overload of it due to the way they metabolise it.
Complicated subject in some ways, straight-forward in others

I have never had my girls done, nor did my mum and we've never had an issue with cancer..
My mum had over 10 girls all not spayed and none died from cancer
My Rex Lady Blue was in the vets every week being treated for a bacterial infection and the vet told me she was in perfect health other then obviously the respiratory issue.
Daisy went to the vets on Tuesday as she had the start of GI Stasis and again, shes completely healthy, same for her sister Lulu.

When people kept telling me about this cancer risk and how high it was, i was thinking bloody hell i must be lucky having had so many rabbits in my past never having it, then i got thinking.. was it a plot from the vets to make more money?!

My girls are happily bonded with the boys, never had any issues, in fact the girls were easier to bond in then the fixed males! xD

I know a lot of people will have different experiences and views, so i wouldn't tell people not to spay their girls.

Sharpie said:

I have never had my girls done, nor did my mum and we've never had an issue with cancer..
My mum had over 10 girls all not spayed and none died from cancer
My Rex Lady Blue was in the vets every week being treated for a bacterial infection and the vet told me she was in perfect health other then obviously the respiratory issue.
Daisy went to the vets on Tuesday as she had the start of GI Stasis and again, shes completely healthy, same for her sister Lulu.

When people kept telling me about this cancer risk and how high it was, i was thinking bloody hell i must be lucky having had so many rabbits in my past never having it, then i got thinking.. was it a plot from the vets to make more money?!

My girls are happily bonded with the boys, never had any issues, in fact the girls were easier to bond in then the fixed males! xD

I know a lot of people will have different experiences and views, so i wouldn't tell people not to spay their girls.

Click to expand...

That's really interesting Sharpie. It's good to hear other points of view.

I don't know how the RWAF arrived at their figure of 80% - I've never seen the data or report on that.

I hope you're well? When is your move?

I would absolutely still have my female bunny spayed even if it turned out her chances of getting cancer are not as high. The risk is still there and it is a terrible way to die (not to mention totally preventable). I have volunteered at various rabbit rescues over the years and every single one does not adopt out unless the bunnies are fixed. Each rescue has had a couple rabbits die from spaying/neutering, but you have to remember they have hundreds of rabbits who have had the procedure. If you have a good rabbit savvy vet then chances of complications are extremely low. I would still spay because it helps promote responsible pet guardianship and is the solution to the overpopulation problem. Rabbits are the third most euthanized animal in shelters here in the US.

Those are just my reasons

MightyMax said:

There's been a very interesting and detailed reply posted to Frances's Facebook page which draws attention to the fact that sex hormones are involved in protection against osteoporosis. This is the same as for humans, which is why post-menopausal women are more at risk.

Would there be an argument against neutering (males and females) on this basis?

It's a balancing act - rabbits absorb a lot of calcium and can even suffer from an overload of it due to the way they metabolise it.
Complicated subject in some ways, straight-forward in others

Click to expand...

That is an interesting argument. But I would have thought if the risk of osteoporosis was that much higher in neutered, that neutering wouldn't be advised as much.
I guess the risk is increased when they are neutered too young... I guess it'd be a case of looking at hormone patterns depending on age, and neutering at the most suitable age for the species.
Rather than neutering at an age deemed best for bonding, human relationships etc.

Sent from my SM-G903F using Tapatalk

MightyMax said:

That's really interesting Sharpie. It's good to hear other points of view.

I don't know how the RWAF arrived at their figure of 80% - I've never seen the data or report on that.

I hope you're well? When is your move?

Click to expand...

We're all good here
Well the house has now completely sold, the new people move in tomorrow, so its just the process of money going to the new home, they reckon by the end of May we'll have brought the new house, so we can move in in June!!
Excited but also nervous for the bunnies lol
Hope you're well

Akire said:

I would absolutely still have my female bunny spayed even if it turned out her chances of getting cancer are not as high. The risk is still there and it is a terrible way to die (not to mention totally preventable). I have volunteered at various rabbit rescues over the years and every single one does not adopt out unless the bunnies are fixed. Each rescue has had a couple rabbits die from spaying/neutering, but you have to remember they have hundreds of rabbits who have had the procedure. If you have a good rabbit savvy vet then chances of complications are extremely low. I would still spay because it helps promote responsible pet guardianship and is the solution to the overpopulation problem. Rabbits are the third most euthanized animal in shelters here in the US.

Those are just my reasons

Click to expand...

And this in itself is an excellent reason to spay, regardless of the speculations on future health issues caused by spaying

MightyMax said:

And this in itself is an excellent reason to spay, regardless of the speculations on future health issues caused by spaying

Click to expand...

personally if it's unhealthy for my pet I wouldn't do it, I wouldn't want to set an example using my pets as tools just for the sake of it when it could put their health at risk. e.g. I only spay female dogs because it's healthier for them, I wouldn't necessarily neuter male dogs unless I had reason to.

daphnephoebe said:

That is an interesting argument. But I would have thought if the risk of osteoporosis was that much higher in neutered, that neutering wouldn't be advised as much.
I guess the risk is increased when they are neutered too young... I guess it'd be a case of looking at hormone patterns depending on age, and neutering at the most suitable age for the species.
Rather than neutering at an age deemed best for bonding, human relationships etc.

Sent from my SM-G903F using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

I agree with you about spaying young. That I think is a bad idea unless really indicated for health reasons.

And also, yes, you would think we would be hearing of a lot more rabbits with osteoporosis .. But it's not something I hear a lot about?

Sharpie said:

We're all good here
Well the house has now completely sold, the new people move in tomorrow, so its just the process of money going to the new home, they reckon by the end of May we'll have brought the new house, so we can move in in June!!
Excited but also nervous for the bunnies lol
Hope you're well

Click to expand...

Thank you, we are doing good

All systems go then! Bunnies will probably be excited? I hope so - new place.
Are you looking forward to it, or will you be wrenched from friends etc?

William said:

personally if it's unhealthy for my pet I wouldn't do it, I wouldn't want to set an example using my pets as tools just for the sake of it when it could put their health at risk. e.g. I only spay female dogs because it's healthier for them, I wouldn't necessarily neuter male dogs unless I had reason to.

Click to expand...

William, I wasn't referring to jeopardising the health of a pet by neutering. It was concerning the *future* unproven possibility of osteoporosis that we were discussing. I wouldn't NOT neuter because of something I personally haven't encountered or heard a vet warn me of at the point of spaying.

Hope that makes sense!

So the discussion is continuing!

This according to Frances Harcourt Brown:

"Martin Whitehead has replied. I am accused of 'eminence-based medicine', which I am not sure whether to take as a compliment or an insult. He goes on to make analogies with human reproductive problems and argues that neutering could cause problems. He concludes his letter by acknowledging that many charities and welfare organisations have spent considerable time, effort and money educating owners that neutering female rabbits is beneficial, but he says that they have done so on the basis of opinion and anecdote rather than evidence. He says he would need to be sure that the recommendation does not result in more harm than good and that he is far from sure of that at present."


There's food for thought here?

Personally I'm glad I got mine spayed . Of the 4 only one had problems after surgery but that was due to her other health issues at the time. She still recovered fully. Mine have all calmed down after spaying and seem more chilled. I've had 2 previous rabbits however that weren't spayed that lived to 8 and 9 years. However we're very 'wild' and frisky due to this. I do suspect that one died from uterine cancer due to symptoms but I had a bad vet at the time who clearly gave me no knowledge to help them. Sometimes it's just genetics but I still prefer spaying in my experience.

Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk

I find it a joke that he is comparing the human reproductive system to a rabbits.
Just makes him seem more like a Douche to me.

There would need to be a mass study across the UK to both disprove him, and prove what plenty of rabbits owners and savvy rabbit vets consider a must in the welfare requirements of a rabbit.

I guess he wants proof that out of 5,000 rabbits, none developed uterine cancer due to being spayed and show what % developed osteoarthritis/osteoporosis and at what age.
Then compare those results to another 5,000 unspayed rabbits.

Sent from my SM-G903F using Tapatalk

MightyMax said:

So the discussion is continuing!

This according to Frances Harcourt Brown:

"Martin Whitehead has replied. I am accused of 'eminence-based medicine', which I am not sure whether to take as a compliment or an insult. He goes on to make analogies with human reproductive problems and argues that neutering could cause problems. He concludes his letter by acknowledging that many charities and welfare organisations have spent considerable time, effort and money educating owners that neutering female rabbits is beneficial, but he says that they have done so on the basis of opinion and anecdote rather than evidence. He says he would need to be sure that the recommendation does not result in more harm than good and that he is far from sure of that at present."


There's food for thought here?

Click to expand...

:roll: :roll: :roll:

it is a well known fact of the risks that come with not neutering, and its incredibly clear on the health benefits. take dogs for instance, most of the female dogs I know that have not been neutered have been a royal pain in the butt. I've also known them all to eventually die due to uterine issues. so out of a small handful of 10 female dogs I have known, they have all died due to their uterus. some had cancers, others had infections. all of them died between the age of 5-11. they could have lived longer, but instead had to be PTS.

just in dogs there are so many health benefits from neutering, and it removes the heats you have to deal with, possible pregnancies than can arise. sometimes dog heats don't come as expected and then you end up with accidental pregnancies. heats are also a pain to deal with, the blood, crying etc. let alone the fact that they're so controlled by hormones they half the time don't listen to you. male dogs are just as bad if you walk them, they're too busy sniffing to care for the command you ask.

that is just in dogs, never mind rabbits which end up with similar conditions. heats do not happen no - but accidental pregnancies can with mating through bars, they're grumpy, territorial. I could go on.

so I strongly disagree.

lucy-24 said:

Personally I'm glad I got mine spayed . Of the 4 only one had problems after surgery but that was due to her other health issues at the time. She still recovered fully. Mine have all calmed down after spaying and seem more chilled. I've had 2 previous rabbits however that weren't spayed that lived to 8 and 9 years. However we're very 'wild' and frisky due to this. I do suspect that one died from uterine cancer due to symptoms but I had a bad vet at the time who clearly gave me no knowledge to help them. Sometimes it's just genetics but I still prefer spaying in my experience.

Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

Hi Lucy and welcome to the Forum :wave:

Thank you for responding, and I agree with you

Interesting stuff...

So is there evidence presented around any of this osteoporosis (in rabbits, not women) link, or is that anecdotal too?