Excessively peeing

Okay, will wait to see what vet says re. EC

Jack's-Jane said:

I would discuss it with your Vet. In some cases it may be necessary to repeat the course of Panacur and to continue it for 6 weeks as opposed to 4. But I'd want more clarity on whether or not the problem is actually EC related before doing that.

Are you being ultra vigilant re minimising the risk of Teddy ingesting urine contaminated hay/food ? If the problem is EC related then the EC spores are she in the urine so a Rabbit can re-infect themselves if the eat any hay/food that may have been in contact with their wee.

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I take your point on the hay/food. As you know, Teddy does have a litter tray of newspaper/hay but an additional source of hay as well. This kind of hangs over his tray but he will be eating hay from the tray as well. I don't think food is particularly an issue.

I don't know ... I tend to think the spores will proliferate all over the place anyway. And his accommodation would be so difficult to sterile clean, I think as its not just a box as such but a large shed (run and 2 to 3 dark cubbyhole thingys.

Remind me please .. what do you put in your litter trays? I could at least give that a try?

Having said all that, today I concerned Teddy isn't peeing enough. He is peeing .. but nowhere near the rate he was yesterday. Wonder what that could mean? That worries me. I am in and out inspecting for Pee!!

He is pooping and eating though. Will ring the vets shortly. Probably far too early, but perhaps some result might be back.

cara said:

I take your point on the hay/food. As you know, Teddy does have a litter tray of newspaper/hay but an additional source of hay as well. This kind of hangs over his tray but he will be eating hay from the tray as well. I don't think food is particularly an issue.

I don't know ... I tend to think the spores will proliferate all over the place anyway. And his accommodation would be so difficult to sterile clean, I think as its not just a box as such but a large shed (run and 2 to 3 dark cubbyhole thingys.

Remind me please .. what do you put in your litter trays? I could at least give that a try?

Having said all that, today I concerned Teddy isn't peeing enough. He is peeing .. but nowhere near the rate he was yesterday. Wonder what that could mean? That worries me. I am in and out inspecting for Pee!!

He is pooping and eating though. Will ring the vets shortly. Probably far too early, but perhaps some result might be back.

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I use hay on a bit of Aubiouse (chopped hemp) or Easibed (fine chopped straw) in my Rabbit's wee corners. I do not use litter trays as each Rabbit/pair live in enclosures with the entire floorspace covered with hay. They all have one specific place where they wee/poo and they do not eat the soiled hay (which is removed twice a day anyway). I doubt my set-up would work for many people as the ground floor of my house is covered in hay !! There is no carpet/lino etc on the base of the enclosures, just the concrete floor of the house.

The fluctuating from lots of pee to very little pee often occurs when a Rabbit has bladder sludge/stones. But of course that is not to say that there may not be other possible causes. I hope that there are some results back xx

cara said:

I take your point on the hay/food. As you know, Teddy does have a litter tray of newspaper/hay but an additional source of hay as well. This kind of hangs over his tray but he will be eating hay from the tray as well. I don't think food is particularly an issue.

I don't know ... I tend to think the spores will proliferate all over the place anyway. And his accommodation would be so difficult to sterile clean, I think as its not just a box as such but a large shed (run and 2 to 3 dark cubbyhole thingys.

Remind me please .. what do you put in your litter trays? I could at least give that a try?

Having said all that, today I concerned Teddy isn't peeing enough. He is peeing .. but nowhere near the rate he was yesterday. Wonder what that could mean? That worries me. I am in and out inspecting for Pee!!

He is pooping and eating though. Will ring the vets shortly. Probably far too early, but perhaps some result might be back.

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If Teddy has had a full course of Panacur, which he has I believe, then why do you think he should still be producing infected spores in his urine? The whole point of the Panacur is to eradicate the EC spores so I don't readily see why Teddy would re-infect himself by being in his own litter tray. Have I missed something here?

Update 30/03/2017

Ok .... EC is now very much a side issue. However, I mentioned it as Teddy had initially improved so much before deteriorating and I had read somewhere that it had taken someone a couple of courses before they were rid of it. However ....

Teddy hadn't really peed at all today so I took him back to the vets, where he promptly became a fountain when manipulated. And some of it was horribly mucky looking. The vet suspected she could feel something firm .. a stone maybe? Or of course something much more untoward.

Coincidentally, the urine results were back. Very dilute and lots of crystals. This will prob mean something more to you than to me, but I don't think its a good sign.

Tried an ultrasound, but Teddy was really too tense.

The vet managed to get blood - Teddy is so so good, which will be sent off tonight and we will proceed according to the results. I feel very, very apprehensive

Poor Teddy has been manhandled so much over these couple of days, in addition to his urine scald issue.

And it has to be said, I am also very apprehensive about the possible costs involved. We really have no idea how old his is, other than we have had him for 4 or 5 years (I must look it up). I am nervous about decisions to be made ... decisions are my burden .. I am not very good at them. And my skin is not thick enough either ... I must not get so down and emotional, especially when I don't have the full picture just yet.

Rather than handle Teddy yet again, later, I decided to apply the flamazine and then let him recover from the ordeals of the day.

Oh my word .. poor thing the pee had gone all over his rear end leaving a thick chalky substance caked on. So had to do yet another bottom bath (as apart from the ones we have done recently, the vet had done another one yesterday before the first application). Smothered him in Flamazine.

The vet suspects he may have two separate problems, stones/sludge and kidney problems.

Teddy almost manically sought food when I placed him back. Not sure if it was because he felt comfortable having expelled all the pee.

cara said:

Rather than handle Teddy yet again, later, I decided to apply the flamazine and then let him recover from the ordeals of the day.

Oh my word .. poor thing the pee had gone all over his rear end leaving a thick chalky substance caked on. So had to do yet another bottom bath (as apart from the ones we have done recently, the vet had done another one yesterday before the first application). Smothered him in Flamazine.

The vet suspects he may have two separate problems, stones/sludge and kidney problems.

Teddy almost manically sought food when I placed him back. Not sure if it was because he felt comfortable having expelled all the pee.

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Oh Cara, I'm so sorry

As I mentioned previously, I did suspect sludge from what you said about Teddy's symptoms.

I don't know if you want info at the moment, or whether you'd rather go with the flow. Ignore if the latter:

http://www.rabbit.org/health/urolith.html

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Uro_gen_diseases/generalities/Sludge.htm

https://www.harcourt-brown.co.uk/ar...t-for-rabbits-with-urinary-tract-disease/view
(click at the bottom for a PDF form of the article)


Thinking of you Cara.
I totally understand the burden of decision making, and also what on earth to do about costly procedures.

Its a complete pig of a thing. And the ridiculous thing is how a poorly bunny knocks me off my feet. I feel physically poorly myself I really need to get a grip :roll:

But thank you mightymax, the articles actually make me feel hope for the sludge situation. He fits that bill to a tea. But nasty stuff it is. His rear-end was shocking. It was like trying to manage a flood of the stuff. Trying to manage his discomfort in that area is daunting. But am hopeful that the flamazine will work wonders.

However, any treatment is a none-starter if Teddy's kidneys are buggered - pardon the French.

He hasn't peed so far tonight but will see what the morning brings.

Thanks as ever for the support on this thread :wave:

cara said:

Its a complete pig of a thing. And the ridiculous thing is how a poorly bunny knocks me off my feet. I feel physically poorly myself I really need to get a grip :roll:

But thank you mightymax, the articles actually make me feel hope for the sludge situation. He fits that bill to a tea. But nasty stuff it is. His rear-end was shocking. It was like trying to manage a flood of the stuff. Trying to manage his discomfort in that area is daunting. But am hopeful that the flamazine will work wonders.

However, any treatment is a none-starter if Teddy's kidneys are buggered - pardon the French.

He hasn't peed so far tonight but will see what the morning brings.

Thanks as ever for the support on this thread :wave:

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You're really welcome for anything I can suggest. I've been there more times that I wish, and I know that sick feeling.
Pit of the stomach stuff

If his kidneys are working OK (and even if they're not) it might be worth thinking about his diet to keep the sludge away. Fluids are the way to go with that (or a bladder flush). Some vets use fluids and a diuretic in combination.

I've found forage of great benefit, because they can eat a lot (low calorie), very varied (once you know what to pick!), full of fibre, and full of moisture. I hardly feed pellets at all these days, or supermarket veg now that Spring is here and more free foods available.

https://www.harcourt-brown.co.uk/articles/free-food-for-rabbits

https://www.harcourt-brown.co.uk/articles/free-food-for-rabbits/foraging

And a very good book written by Twigs Way called 'Foraging for Rabbits' which can be purchased from the RWAF bookshop

Plus that link to the diet sheet I mentioned before:

https://www.harcourt-brown.co.uk/ar...t-for-rabbits-with-urinary-tract-disease/view
(click at the bottom for a PDF form of the article)

...... this mentions putting a bit of apple or pineapple juice into the drinking water to encourage consumption. Also fresh grass instead of hay (where possible) for even more moisture.


When will you get the results of his blood test?

I expect the results tomorrow afternoon.

I think teddy generally has a very good diet although I am guilty of giving him treats, especially with everything that is going on right now . He is in the garden all day (open access to his kennel/run of course) so plenty of grass and any weeds he can snaffle (where did that word come from!). Although I am keeping him in at the moment as don't want to add earth etc to the accumulation on his fur.

He has a small handful, once a day, of pellets and all day long hay on demand.


It is strange, or perhaps just a coincidence, that I took him on with the tale end of a very bad case of urine scald.

I do hope all is well with you and yours. I am very conscious of taking advice when we perhaps all have our own problems!

cara said:

I expect the results tomorrow afternoon.

I think teddy generally has a very good diet although I am guilty of giving him treats, especially with everything that is going on right now . He is in the garden all day (open access to his kennel/run of course) so plenty of grass and any weeds he can snaffle (where did that word come from!). Although I am keeping him in at the moment as don't want to add earth etc to the accumulation on his fur.

He has a small handful, once a day, of pellets and all day long hay on demand.


It is strange, or perhaps just a coincidence, that I took him on with the tale end of a very bad case of urine scald.

I do hope all is well with you and yours. I am very conscious of taking advise when we perhaps all have our own problems!

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You're very sweet Cara

I was just doing my late night (early morning?) checks before turning in and caught your post here. Maybe the damage was done with Teddy before you got him, as if he's eating so much grass (I remember you saying this before) then his fluid level would be decent.

I love the word snaffle! I used it this evening, but my friend is German and she thought I was saying that I had a sniffle!

I'm glad you won't have to wait long for the results.

Night to you and Teddy xx

cara said:

Rather than handle Teddy yet again, later, I decided to apply the flamazine and then let him recover from the ordeals of the day.

Oh my word .. poor thing the pee had gone all over his rear end leaving a thick chalky substance caked on. So had to do yet another bottom bath (as apart from the ones we have done recently, the vet had done another one yesterday before the first application). Smothered him in Flamazine.

The vet suspects he may have two separate problems, stones/sludge and kidney problems.

Teddy almost manically sought food when I placed him back. Not sure if it was because he felt comfortable having expelled all the pee.

Click to expand...

I would place a large wager on Teddy having bladder sludge/stones, as we have discussed. The symptoms he displays fit to a T. Does your current Vet know about the fact Teddy has passed thick sludge ? If not I'd give him/her a call this morning to let him/her know. In my unqualified opinion the sooner the Vet gets on with starting treatment the better. It must be very upsetting for you to see Teddy in trouble with his waterworks all the time. Sending lots more vibes for him xx

Good morning to you both :wave:

I think I shall use the word 'snaffle' much more!

Yes, Jacks-Jane, it is most distressing and this morning I can see he has not peed at all since yesterday tea-time. The vet has seen the sludge but wants to wait to see the blood results before investigating further, in case he has some kind of kidney trouble. This waiting for results is awful. And Teddy obviously cannot wait much longer.

On the upside, slightly, but only as a result of the fact he has not peed, his rear-end is looking less angry and improved.

What should I ask the vet - I am going to ring her shortly?

Also, again thinking, thinking, thinking ... the problem initially was peeing for England. Having had is bladder manipulated and expressed, he now isn't peeing at all? Could there be a connection? Not being able to pee wasn't an issue and never has been before.

Okay, sorry for constant updates, but thankfully, Teddy has peed .... yay yay yay

Small in the scheme of things, but he must be feeling better for it. And, he was saved by the bell, as just about to take him to the vets to check if bladder is full.

So, just waiting on blood results this afternoon.

cara said:

Also, again thinking, thinking, thinking ... the problem initially was peeing for England. Having had is bladder manipulated and expressed, he now isn't peeing at all? Could there be a connection? Not being able to pee wasn't an issue and never has been before.

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Pain on urination can make a Rabbit hold their wee in. Pain may be due to inflammation within the urinary tract for whatever reason. However, bladder stones can cause a urethral obstruction so personally I would want Teddy examined today, even if he has now wee'd a tiny amount. I'd give the Vet a call to discuss the situation

cara said:

Good morning to you both :wave:

I think I shall use the word 'snaffle' much more!

Yes, Jacks-Jane, it is most distressing and this morning I can see he has not peed at all since yesterday tea-time. The vet has seen the sludge but wants to wait to see the blood results before investigating further, in case he has some kind of kidney trouble. This waiting for results is awful. And Teddy obviously cannot wait much longer.

On the upside, slightly, but only as a result of the fact he has not peed, his rear-end is looking less angry and improved.

What should I ask the vet - I am going to ring her shortly?

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I wonder if poor Teddy has a Urinary Tract Infection to boot. That would cause pain on urination - or not wanting to wee at all. A bit like us having cystitis. I've had it, and it's very painful!

Can't wait to hear Teddy's results too, and hope all will be OK.

Hugs to you xx

The problem is my preferred vets are not in today .. always the way. And one of the vets (this mornings) today isn't overly interested in rabbits imo.

it was suggested (over the phone) that having emptied Teddys bladder y/day, his bladder may not have been full enough and needing emptying?

He could have an infection .. although would the urine sample have thrown that up? Or maybe he has just developed one ...

I am out at the moment, so will check when I get back. I am changing the tray at least 3 times a day, even when he hadn't peed in it, to keep it fresh and check for pee output.

Wanted you to be the first to share the GOOD news with :wave:

Ok, Blood results perfectly within the norm. So not the kidney problem I had anticipated or, in fact, the vet either, who was a little guarded and had suspected 2 problems, one of which was his kidneys.

We are still awaiting some urine tests. Meanwhile, Teddy is going to have an x-ray on Monday morning.

What are your thoughts? Are next steps as you would expect?

I have been jumping around saying "thank you, thank you, thank you" ... no idea who to but I am just so so so relieved!!!

Thanks for holding my hand so far :wave:

cara said:

Wanted you to be the first to share the GOOD news with :wave:

Ok, Blood results perfectly within the norm. So not the kidney problem I had anticipated or, in fact, the vet either, who was a little guarded and had suspected 2 problems, one of which was his kidneys.

We are still awaiting some urine tests. Meanwhile, Teddy is going to have an x-ray on Monday morning.

What are your thoughts? Are next steps as you would expect?

I have been jumping around saying "thank you, thank you, thank you" ... no idea who to but I am just so so so relieved!!!

Thanks for holding my hand so far :wave:

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Good news re the blood test An abdominal Xray seems to be an appropriate next step, that should ascertain whether Teddy does have bladder sludge/stones.
Hope all goes well for him over the weekend and for the procedure on Monday xx