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Possible EC? U/D getting worse :(

L

LionheadLuver

Warren Veteran
Hi

I haven't posted on this forum for a while, but I'm looking for some advice on my rescue bunny, Gerry. He's around 7 years old and I've had him for 2 years.

A week ago, he suddenly started to show lameness on one hind leg. He could hop around but one leg is "late" to hop, although it did still have strength in that leg. Took him to the vet and put him on Metacam to see if he improved. He didn't, so went to the vet again, and had X rays.

The X rays showed no bone problems, no arthritis. So the vet concluded it was neurological and possibly EC. He's on a course of 28 days Panacur and Metacam.

He can't scratch his ear with that leg, he struggles to balance (eg when washing his face with both paws, standing up). When he sits, this leg is usually placed near his front feet, not parallel to his other back leg. He can hop around but is sometimes reluctant, and that leg does hop along, but seems to have a delayed response. Does this sound neurological and EC?

He's taken a couple of days to recover from the anesthetic from the X ray, and last night, he had cecotrophs squashed on his bum. He usually hops away when he does a cecotroph so does this mean he's losing feeling to his bottom? He has a very fluffy bum (he's part Lionhead), so would it be better to shave that area? He's always been a very clean bunny so this is very unusual.

I appreciate any help with this. Thank you.
 
It could be neurological- either EC or possibly the result of a CVA (stroke). But it could be a trapped nerve, this would not be evident on Xrays. I had a Rabbit who developed the same symptoms. With daily Metacam, physiotherapy and acupuncture she made a full recovery. But it took at least 2 months.

It may be useful to clip his fluffy fur to make keeping him clean easier. It is not unusual for a Rabbit with any type of hind leg problem to struggle to keep their bum clean.

You'll also need to keep a close check on his ear. Any hind leg weakness can result in the Rabbit getting very gunky ears. This, in turn, can lead to ear infections. An otoscope would be a useful instrument to have at home to enable you to get a good look in the ear canal. You can buy a very basic pocket otoscope for about £30.
 
Jack's-Jane said:
It could be neurological- either EC or possibly the result of a CVA (stroke). But it could be a trapped nerve, this would not be evident on Xrays. I had a Rabbit who developed the same symptoms. With daily Metacam, physiotherapy and acupuncture she made a full recovery. But it took at least 2 months.

It may be useful to clip his fluffy fur to make keeping him clean easier. It is not unusual for a Rabbit with any type of hind leg problem to struggle to keep their bum clean.

You'll also need to keep a close check on his ear. Any hind leg weakness can result in the Rabbit getting very gunky ears. This, in turn, can lead to ear infections. An otoscope would be a useful instrument to have at home to enable you to get a good look in the ear canal. You can buy a very basic pocket otoscope for about £30.
Click to expand...

Thanks very much for your help. :D
 
LionheadLuver said:
Hi

I haven't posted on this forum for a while, but I'm looking for some advice on my rescue bunny, Gerry. He's around 7 years old and I've had him for 2 years.

A week ago, he suddenly started to show lameness on one hind leg. He could hop around but one leg is "late" to hop, although it did still have strength in that leg. Took him to the vet and put him on Metacam to see if he improved. He didn't, so went to the vet again, and had X rays.

The X rays showed no bone problems, no arthritis. So the vet concluded it was neurological and possibly EC. He's on a course of 28 days Panacur and Metacam.

He can't scratch his ear with that leg, he struggles to balance (eg when washing his face with both paws, standing up). When he sits, this leg is usually placed near his front feet, not parallel to his other back leg. He can hop around but is sometimes reluctant, and that leg does hop along, but seems to have a delayed response. Does this sound neurological and EC?

He's taken a couple of days to recover from the anesthetic from the X ray, and last night, he had cecotrophs squashed on his bum. He usually hops away when he does a cecotroph so does this mean he's losing feeling to his bottom? He has a very fluffy bum (he's part Lionhead), so would it be better to shave that area? He's always been a very clean bunny so this is very unusual.

I appreciate any help with this. Thank you.
Click to expand...

It does sound like the symptoms of E.C., and Panacur and Metacam would be the appropriate treatment for that. In my experience a stroke is not as likely, given the symptoms you describe.

Could it be that he's jumped off somewhere and sprained it? If so, the Metacam will help settle that as it's anti-inflammatory too.

The squashed cecals attached to him don't mean he's losing feeling there, don't worry. Just that he's not been able to get to them. Clipping or shaving the fur might be an option - could you get the vet nurse to help you with that?

Welcome to the Forum by the way :D
 
MightyMax said:
It does sound like the symptoms of E.C., and Panacur and Metacam would be the appropriate treatment for that. In my experience a stroke is not as likely, given the symptoms you describe.

Could it be that he's jumped off somewhere and sprained it? If so, the Metacam will help settle that as it's anti-inflammatory too.

The squashed cecals attached to him don't mean he's losing feeling there, don't worry. Just that he's not been able to get to them. Clipping or shaving the fur might be an option - could you get the vet nurse to help you with that?

Welcome to the Forum by the way :D
Click to expand...

Thank you very much for your help. I'm glad the cecals aren't a sign he's losing feeling. I've had to clean him again this morning and his fur is not helping, so I'll ask the vet about clipping.

Jack's-Jane - What should I use to keep his ears clean? I'll look into getting an otoscope. :)
 
LionheadLuver said:
Thank you very much for your help. I'm glad the cecals aren't a sign he's losing feeling. I've had to clean him again this morning and his fur is not helping, so I'll ask the vet about clipping.

Jack's-Jane - What should I use to keep his ears clean? I'll look into getting an otoscope. :)
Click to expand...

I would want the Vet to take a look in his ears first to make sure that there is not already any signs of a problem and that the tympanic membrane is intact. If it were not then it is not a good idea to apply anything directly into the ear canals. If the Vet says all is OK then he/she should be able to advise you of the most approriate ear cleaning product to use to remove any build up of wax.

With the Panacur, I always use the 10% Liquid as it is far easier to give a weight specific dose. Using the Panacur 10% Liquid the dose rate is 0.2ml/kg (20mg/kg).

In cases of suspected EC it is important to make sure that the Rabbit(s) do not ingest any urine contaminated hay/food, so A* hygiene is essential. It's best to use raised hay racks. The Rabbit's environment needs to be bleach cleaned on days 21 and 28 of treatment using a 10% bleach solution. Surfaces that cannot be bleach cleaned can be steam cleaned. It is advisable to avoid using grass based runs as this surface can obviously not be bleach cleaned or steam cleaned. All in contact Rabbits need to be treated with Panacur too.
 
Jack's-Jane said:
I would want the Vet to take a look in his ears first to make sure that there is not already any signs of a problem and that the tympanic membrane is intact. If it were not then it is not a good idea to apply anything directly into the ear canals. If the Vet says all is OK then he/she should be able to advise you of the most approriate ear cleaning product to use to remove any build up of wax.

With the Panacur, I always use the 10% Liquid as it is far easier to give a weight specific dose. Using the Panacur 10% Liquid the dose rate is 0.2ml/kg (20mg/kg).

In cases of suspected EC it is important to make sure that the Rabbit(s) do not ingest any urine contaminated hay/food, so A* hygiene is essential. It's best to use raised hay racks. The Rabbit's environment needs to be bleach cleaned on days 21 and 28 of treatment using a 10% bleach solution. Surfaces that cannot be bleach cleaned can be steam cleaned. It is advisable to avoid using grass based runs as this surface can obviously not be bleach cleaned or steam cleaned. All in contact Rabbits need to be treated with Panacur too.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your help. :) I'll give Molly a course of Panacur too. I'll also get the vet to check his ears next time he's in. Unfortunately, I've already bought the Panacur paste. Should he just get 1 graduation as he's so close to the weight limit?
 
LionheadLuver said:
Gerry weighs 2.7kg. How much Panacur should he have? It says 1 graduation per 2.5kg.
Click to expand...

You're going to need quite a bit of Panacur, as you'll need to treat Molly as well, and both for 28 days.

I would start with the paste, as you have it, and buy some 10% Panacur online.

I have found this company to be good

http://www.animeddirect.co.uk/panacur-small-animal-oral-suspension-100ml-10.html

You will need to register your rabbit, but you don't need a prescription :)
 
MightyMax said:
You're going to need quite a bit of Panacur, as you'll need to treat Molly as well, and both for 28 days.

I would start with the paste, as you have it, and buy some 10% Panacur online.

I have found this company to be good

http://www.animeddirect.co.uk/panacur-small-animal-oral-suspension-100ml-10.html

You will need to register your rabbit, but you don't need a prescription :)
Click to expand...

I've bought 6 tubes of paste, although I think I've bought too much for the 2 of them. :lol: Molly is only little, so she's definitely only having 1 graduation, but I'm not sure if Gerry should have 1 or 2 graduations as he's right on the limit.
 
LionheadLuver said:
I've bought 6 tubes of paste, although I think I've bought too much for the 2 of them. :lol: Molly is only little, so she's definitely only having 1 graduation, but I'm not sure if Gerry should have 1 or 2 graduations as he's right on the limit.
Click to expand...

If it's of any use, my vet has advised that it's been tested (yes, probably on rabbits) and found that even 50 times the recommended dose is safe.

I have used double doses on the instructions of my vet, in the past, for the treatment of E.C.
 
UPDATE:

It's been over a month now since Gerry started to be lame on his hind leg. He's had a 28 day course of Panacur and he's still no better. He's been back to the vet and I found a strange lump on his pelvis (only on one side, the side of his bad leg). This lump seems to be part of the pelvis and feels hard and bony. The vet has felt this but nothing showed up on his X ray (which was 3 weeks ago at the time of the vet visit). Could this lump have appeared in only 3 weeks?

He's now on Baytril for 2 weeks to see if its a bone infection. He's had a week of this, and still he's no better. The vet said it may be a growth. :cry: Gerry is going back to the vets next week, if he's no better, I think the vet will say its a growth. Does this mean cancer? I thought cancer was very rare in rabbits? If it is cancer, and it's in his pelvis, I'm guessing its incurable? :cry:

Gerry is on Metacam (has been since he showed symptoms), but he does seem depressed. He used to rattle the bars to the door of his enclosure, he used to bolt out for a run around every time you opened the door. Now, he never rattles the bars, and he needs to be encouraged to come out with treats. Even then, he only hops around for a few minutes and then goes back to sit inside. He's still eating, moving around his enclosure to toilet, for water etc, but he's not happy or his usual self. :cry:
 
LionheadLuver said:
UPDATE:

It's been over a month now since Gerry started to be lame on his hind leg. He's had a 28 day course of Panacur and he's still no better. He's been back to the vet and I found a strange lump on his pelvis (only on one side, the side of his bad leg). This lump seems to be part of the pelvis and feels hard and bony. The vet has felt this but nothing showed up on his X ray (which was 3 weeks ago at the time of the vet visit). Could this lump have appeared in only 3 weeks?

He's now on Baytril for 2 weeks to see if its a bone infection. He's had a week of this, and still he's no better. The vet said it may be a growth. :cry: Gerry is going back to the vets next week, if he's no better, I think the vet will say its a growth. Does this mean cancer? I thought cancer was very rare in rabbits? If it is cancer, and it's in his pelvis, I'm guessing its incurable? :cry:

Gerry is on Metacam (has been since he showed symptoms), but he does seem depressed. He used to rattle the bars to the door of his enclosure, he used to bolt out for a run around every time you opened the door. Now, he never rattles the bars, and he needs to be encouraged to come out with treats. Even then, he only hops around for a few minutes and then goes back to sit inside. He's still eating, moving around his enclosure to toilet, for water etc, but he's not happy or his usual self. :cry:
Click to expand...

Sorry to hear that things are not improving for Gerry. Without diagnostics it's impossible to say what the lump may be. Sometimes it is possible for a Vet to take a fine needle aspiration (FNA) from the lump and then to examine the aspirate cells under a microscope. My Vet has done this for a couple of my Rabbits who developed 'lumps'. One Rabbit being the late Jack who had a growth on his pelvis.

Whilst a malignancy is a possibility it is certainly not inevitable.

If it were to be an infection in the bone (osteomyelitis) then Baytril may not be that useful to treat it.

Finally, perhaps Gerry requires a higher dose of analgesia ? He may be somewhat depressed if he is in pain due to an inadequate dose of analgesia.
 
Jack's-Jane said:
Sorry to hear that things are not improving for Gerry. Without diagnostics it's impossible to say what the lump may be. Sometimes it is possible for a Vet to take a fine needle aspiration (FNA) from the lump and then to examine the aspirate cells under a microscope. My Vet has done this for a couple of my Rabbits who developed 'lumps'. One Rabbit being the late Jack who had a growth on his pelvis.

Whilst a malignancy is a possibility it is certainly not inevitable.

If it were to be an infection in the bone (osteomyelitis) then Baytril may not be that useful to treat it.

Finally, perhaps Gerry requires a higher dose of analgesia ? He may be somewhat depressed if he is in pain due to an inadequate dose of analgesia.
Click to expand...

Thanks Jacks Jane. He's on 0.75ml of Metacam (dog) once daily. He's around 2.6kg. The vet did suggest another X ray but that it wouldn't show whether it was a bone infection or growth.

I feel better now it seems I have options. Thanks again for your help.
 
LionheadLuver said:
Thanks Jacks Jane. He's on 0.75ml of Metacam (dog) once daily. He's around 2.6kg. The vet did suggest another X ray but that it wouldn't show whether it was a bone infection or growth.

I feel better now it seems I have options. Thanks again for your help.
Click to expand...

He could have a higher dose of Metacam, it may be better if split into 12 hourly doses rather than once a day. Rabbits metabolise meloxicam at a faster rate than other species and so Rabbits may require more frequent dosing in order to provide pain relief over a 24 hour period.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16521861


Perhaps you could give the Vet a call about this ?
 
LionheadLuver said:
UPDATE:

It's been over a month now since Gerry started to be lame on his hind leg. He's had a 28 day course of Panacur and he's still no better. He's been back to the vet and I found a strange lump on his pelvis (only on one side, the side of his bad leg). This lump seems to be part of the pelvis and feels hard and bony. The vet has felt this but nothing showed up on his X ray (which was 3 weeks ago at the time of the vet visit). Could this lump have appeared in only 3 weeks?

He's now on Baytril for 2 weeks to see if its a bone infection. He's had a week of this, and still he's no better. The vet said it may be a growth. :cry: Gerry is going back to the vets next week, if he's no better, I think the vet will say its a growth. Does this mean cancer? I thought cancer was very rare in rabbits? If it is cancer, and it's in his pelvis, I'm guessing its incurable? :cry:

Gerry is on Metacam (has been since he showed symptoms), but he does seem depressed. He used to rattle the bars to the door of his enclosure, he used to bolt out for a run around every time you opened the door. Now, he never rattles the bars, and he needs to be encouraged to come out with treats. Even then, he only hops around for a few minutes and then goes back to sit inside. He's still eating, moving around his enclosure to toilet, for water etc, but he's not happy or his usual self. :cry:
Click to expand...

I'm really sorry to hear this update, and that he's no better from his lame leg either :(

If he has a bone infection (which is not likely) then Baytril will not address it. You will need antibiotics that penetrate the bone better like injected penicillins. Depocillin etc ....

Yes it could be cancer, but there again it could be a benign growth. You could ask the vet to take a few cells with a needle and syringe - called a Fine Needle Aspiration, but if this doesn't work (and it doesn't always) then the only thing to reassure yourself of what it is, is to have it removed.

His depression may not be connected at all with the lump. These things often don't make any impression, at least in the early stages. However, they can spring up quickly and it doesn't surprise me that it wasn't on his last X-ray. He may be more 'depressed' with his overall state of lameness?

Cancer is rare in rabbits, but the longer they live, the more I seem to be seeing it occurring.

Good luck with Gerry. I really feel for you x
 
UPDATE:

Its been 2 months since he first showed symptoms of his hind leg. He's had numerous vet visits and another type of antibiotic, but unfortunately, his leg is getting worse, and his other hind leg is starting to show symptoms too. :cry: The vet said its unlikely he'll recover but there is no definite diagnosis. He can go for referral, however the vet said they still may not be able to treat him (even though they'll probably get a proper diagnosis). I'm not sure whether to go down the referral route, because Gerry does not do well with anaesthetic or being in strange places, or syringing meds etc, but I don't know if they'll be able to make him better or not. After his last Xray, he took 2 days to start eating again. Would it be too stressful for him to get a diagnosis and treatment (if thats possible)? :( He's 7 years old now.

We are going to try and keep him as comfortable as we can for as long as we can. The vet has said we can try steroids as a last resort, but as she believes his condition is infectious, suppressing his immune system is not a good idea right now. :cry:

He does seem a bit happier now though, he's eating well, he's hopping around, and he's even binkying :thumb: . He does fall over though when he binkies but at least he seems happy and comfortable. :D
 
Sorry to hear about Gerry but pleased he is feeling happier at the moment. Sending vibes for his happy state to continue xx
 
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