Rabbit MRI: UD 15th May

Has anybodys rabbit had an MRI? Peter has had pussy ears for weeks, antibiotics orally and in the ears hasn't worked, tomorrow he is booked in for an MRI and then following that it is likely he will have to have an op to deal with whatever they find. The MRI alone is costing £900.

I was just wondering if anybody has had anything similar measure and was it a success? It all seems quite drastic, especially price wise. The vet said they could try an off licence antibiotic (depocillin I imagine because she said it would be injectable), but she said if that worked it would probably take a while and she was concerned the ears would get drastically worse before then and said it could lead to meningitis or something else, apparently the ears are really quite bad.

Janey said:

Has anybodys rabbit had an MRI? Peter has had pussy ears for weeks, antibiotics orally and in the ears hasn't worked, tomorrow he is booked in for an MRI and then following that it is likely he will have to have an op to deal with whatever they find. The MRI alone is costing £900.

I was just wondering if anybody has had anything similar measure and was it a success? It all seems quite drastic, especially price wise. The vet said they could try an off licence antibiotic (depocillin I imagine because she said it would be injectable), but she said if that worked it would probably take a while and she was concerned the ears would get drastically worse before then and said it could lead to meningitis or something else, apparently the ears are really quite bad.

Click to expand...

I have not had a Rabbit who has had an MRI scan. But I am surprised the Vet will not try Depocillin first before embarking on far more major strategies. If the oral abx was Baytril then I am not surprised that it didn't help much.

Ear surgery is a huge op and a 'cure' is by no means guaranteed. I would want to consider trying an injectable abx first. Morse had injectable Depocillin daily at one point (It is usually done every 2-3 days). He had chronic ear disease and surgery was not an option for him as he also had a heart problem. But even if surgery were an option I would certainly not want to go down that route without trying an injectable abx first.

Could you request a second opinion if the Vet wont agree ?

This link gives details of the types of ear surgery that are probably being considered by your Vet

*WARNING VERY GRAPHIC IMAGES ON THIS LINK*

http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/navc/2006/SAE/617.pdf?LA=1

Hi Jane, thank you so much for the information, it's really helpful.

I think peters must have progressed to otitis media because the vet said that she can't see much for all the thick puss, if that's the case I think it's why she is suggesting the MRI, so that she can see what is going on before making the next move, I think she is hesitant to just wait for depocillin to work in case the infection spreads further. I'm a bit cross that we used baytril for so long because even I know that will rarely work. I'm in a real quandary, she did say we could just try depocillin but when I asked her what she advised she said the MRI to kind of speed things up. I'm considering cancelling the MRI & trying the depocillin, I wish I didn't have to make the decision so fast, it's tricky because the MRI is at another branch so it's all logistics booking him in etc.

I really don't want to go down the surgery route seeing those pics though, so maybe risking depocillin will be worth it anyway. In your experience is depocillin normally effective? Have you had a rabbit get to the stage where they have puss in the ears?

Janey said:

Hi Jane, thank you so much for the information, it's really helpful.

I think peters must have progressed to otitis media because the vet said that she can't see much for all the thick puss, if that's the case I think it's why she is suggesting the MRI, so that she can see what is going on before making the next move, I think she is hesitant to just wait for depocillin to work in case the infection spreads further. I'm a bit cross that we used baytril for so long because even I know that will rarely work. I'm in a real quandary, she did say we could just try depocillin but when I asked her what she advised she said the MRI to kind of speed things up. I'm considering cancelling the MRI & trying the depocillin, I wish I didn't have to make the decision so fast, it's tricky because the MRI is at another branch so it's all logistics booking him in etc.

I really don't want to go down the surgery route seeing those pics though, so maybe risking depocillin will be worth it anyway. In your experience is depocillin normally effective? Have you had a rabbit get to the stage where they have puss in the ears?

Click to expand...

Yes, Morse often had A LOT of pus in his outer ear canal. The infection became chronic but it did NOT progress to otitis media/interna/meningitis. That's not to say that in some cases it could happen, but IME with Morse, Colonel Colin, Nomad, Jo, Sir Victor, Jessica, Bobbie it never did. In fact it was only one Rabbit, Patrick, who's Otitis progressed rapidly to cause severe otitis interna. Patrick was the only Rabbit whom I lost to the (bloody horrible) ear disease and not one of the Rabbits had surgery except ear canal cleaning under GA.

I stress I am NOT saying that no Rabbit should have surgery, clearly it must be effective in certain circumstances. But in all honesty I have not heard of a longterm good outcome, even after repeated surgical intervention.

I am probably not the best person to 'listen' to on this one as I have heard of more 'negatives' than 'positives' as far as the outcome of ear canal resections/ablations are concerned. I am just stating an unqualified opinion.

As to whether the Depocillin worked, well it may not totally eradicate the infection but it can contain it. It did for Morse.................for over 5 years. He was not on abx all the time, but just during flare ups.

I don't have any advice Janey, but I'm really sorry Peter isn't well. I hate these situations where you have to try to decide what to do for the best - so stressful. Hope all goes well today, whatever you decide.

Jack's-Jane said:

I stress I am NOT saying that no Rabbit should have surgery, clearly it must be effective in certain circumstances. But in all honesty I have not heard of a longterm good outcome, even after repeated surgical intervention.

Click to expand...

While I too know of some situations where it really hasn't worked out, I also know of a few bunnies who have had surgery done very successfully and without needing repeat follow-up surgery. Apart from the issue of whether the bunny is a suitable candidate for surgery, I think it probably depends on who is doing it!! I would not hesitate to ask my vet for a referral to William Lewis if any of mine had issues which might benefit from the surgery.

Ear abscesses are such a tricky one, especially in lop bunnies as they just don't tend to completely go away. When Harry had problems, I actually found that baytril was the antibiotic which worked best - although it needed high doses (20mg/kg) for an extended period of time. It's very difficult to pinpoint which is the 'right' antibiotic because of where the infection sits. Is your bunny insured or would you need to pay for the MRI? It will need bunny to be sedated for quite a while too so I'd definitely want to explore options in more detail and find out what difference the MRI would make to treatment options before agreeing to it - i.e. what would the vet do differently depending on the result of the MRI? Good luck, it's such a tricky one to work out what to do.

Thank you all for your comments and advice.

I have cancelled the MRI today (after my poor Mum getting up and ready to take him in for me, as i have to work, my vet is quite a trek), my decision was rushed last night due to a last minute space on the MRI list and i thought i had a few days to research and think about it, i just don't feel fully informed.

It is so hard, on the one hand I am hesitant to try the depocillin and 'waste time' risking it gets worse and spreads further, his face has been drooped for several weeks on one side which is how I noticed the issue in the first place so I'm wondering if that is an indicator of how bad things are inside. However, paying £900 for the MRI may limit what treatment I can do in the future, I do have insurance but up until now treatment has cost me £300 and my limit apparently is £2000 for the year (despite paying £20 per month in insurance may I add), so although they said they would help me cost wise if an op is needed, that doesn't allow for anything following that, I have a bit of cash but not a lot and its one of those 'how far do you go' it adds up so quickly, i hate to think of it money wise but I also have to be relistic.

My old bunny was on depocillin for a while rather than having surgey, completely different issue but similar in as do you try and treat the issue at the cause to nip it in the bun or try and keep at bay, it worked for her. I don't like the idea of an anesthetic if not neccessary, he is 6 so although not super old I guess its still risky.

Would an x-ray not be an option rather than an MRI? I realise it may not be as clear but surely not all practoces have MRI machines?

I have had the most stressful few weeks at work, this is really not needed right now, my poor bunny!

Can I just add that we have had numerous rabbits on depocillin ( and still do ) and we have always given it daily, usually for months at a time.

The only antibiotic we give every three days is oxycare.

Taz's ear infection can back from the lab as sensitive to baytril which we did use first. So don't feel bad about giving it a go.

I really hope you find something to help whether it medication or surgery x

Thank you, I feel a bit better about trying the baytril now as I was feeling guilty for allowing it for a few weeks.

He has had the sensitivity test done but they didn't really show anything, the vet said that could because it's all pussy etc so the test aren't really very effective in showing anything, obviously this doesn't help us!

Janey said:

Thank you, I feel a bit better about trying the baytril now as I was feeling guilty for allowing it for a few weeks.

He has had the sensitivity test done but they didn't really show anything, the vet said that could because it's all pussy etc so the test aren't really very effective in showing anything, obviously this doesn't help us!

Click to expand...

I don't know whether the pus in the ear was cultured, but Baytril *can* work for ear infections. Of course, if it targets the bacteria. Depocillin is another good one to try - given every day - but only if it targets the bacteria. Who's to say?

As far as surgery is concerned, with an extremely experienced specialist, I would go for it. I have known several bunnies recover and it totally solve their problems in future. Depends on the skill of the person doing the op.

As for the MRI - if the solution is surgery anyway (best solution long term) - the I would save your insurance money for the surgery. Also for aftercare and antibiotics (though Depocillin is dirt cheap)

Just my thoughts on my experiences. Best of luck

(Sorry, just seen you say this was cultured, with no result)

Hi

We had an MRI done - it was extremely useful for both ourselves and the vet as it showed the full extent of the problem. In fact i wish we had had it done much much earlier rather than trying several abx first (including targetted ones after having cultures done) and endless other methods of exploring the problem. MRI was not then often offered for rabbits. It was costly but we also used insurance.

We also had an ear canal ablation done BUT by a different method than I understand would not be favoured by top vets - then they used to close up - now they leave more open I understand -

I am not going to write everything here as it would take ages - but you are welcome to PM me or email me.

parsnipbun said:

Hi

We had an MRI done - it was extremely useful for both ourselves and the vet as it showed the full extent of the problem. In fact i wish we had had it done much much earlier rather than trying several abx first (including targetted ones after having cultures done) and endless other methods of exploring the problem. MRI was not then often offered for rabbits. It was costly but we also used insurance.

We also had an ear canal ablation done BUT by a different method than I understand would not be favoured by top vets - then they used to close up - now they leave more open I understand -

I am not going to write everything here as it would take ages - but you are welcome to PM me or email me.

Click to expand...

Was the MRI specifically for ear problems? My vet has eschewed it in the past as possibly not providing enough info :? (though I'd never be in a position to afford it!)

Thank you everyone for your experiences, from reading these it really shows me that it seems very different on a case by case basis as to what is for the best, I think this is what makes it so hard, there doesn't seem to be a 'right' answer at this point.

I'm going to try the injections first and see if that makes any difference, I feel guilty because I must admit that to a certain extent the cost is having an influence on my decision, but then again that's because I want to manage my finances to ensure I have the money to best help him long-term.

My colleague at work suggested I pretend I'm in an accident and insist I need an MRI at the hospital and that I need to take my bunny in with me for comfort......worth a try

MightyMax said:

Was the MRI specifically for ear problems? My vet has eschewed it in the past as possibly not providing enough info :? (though I'd never be in a position to afford it!)

Click to expand...

Yes very specifically to see how bad an inner ear abscess was. It was incredibly helpful. She could see millimetre by millimetre where the pus was, how large it was, the effect on the surrounding tissue etc etc.

It was c£900 for the first one; but the price at our vets has now fallen considerably and the last time we had it done (actually on another rabbit to check their abscess) it was £500. I think they have 'linked' with a provider.

Janey said:

Thank you everyone for your experiences, from reading these it really shows me that it seems very different on a case by case basis as to what is for the best, I think this is what makes it so hard, there doesn't seem to be a 'right' answer at this point.

I'm going to try the injections first and see if that makes any difference, I feel guilty because I must admit that to a certain extent the cost is having an influence on my decision, but then again that's because I want to manage my finances to ensure I have the money to best help him long-term.

My colleague at work suggested I pretend I'm in an accident and insist I need an MRI at the hospital and that I need to take my bunny in with me for comfort......worth a try

Click to expand...

Ah, a sweet thought

I understand why you would feel guilty about treatment being influenced by finances, but not all of us (me included) can give our bunnies the ultimate gold star treatment we would like because of restraints.

In some ways I think it's a good thing, because it encourages us to be conservative in our decisions and not gung-ho to do everything we can just because we can. That's the way I look at it. We are not bad rabbit people because we can't spend every penny on our rabbits!

So a little update. In the end I tried the injections for a few weeks but they didn't help, so I agreed to the MRI (they actually ended up doing a CT scan, I have no idea why, no I got a phone call with the results yeterday which don't seem good.

I was on Oxford street when I got the phone call so not ideal but from what I understand he has complex and different situations in each ear, there was a lot of talk of an operation and what that could do but also the fact it is a big op etc, to cut a long story short I'm going to see the vet on Wednesday where he said he can draw me diagrams etc to explain and decide on the next step.

I'm gutted, I really didn't want to put him through an operation, especially such a big one on each ear. Also he didn't do amazingly with the sedation for the CT scans and they had to keep him in overrnight because his temp dropped.

I'm not sure why but it's also hard to accept he's so poorly, I think it's because other than a very slightly dropped right side of his face he is acting fine. This seems to make the decision making even harder as its like I've got a happy bunny.

Not sure why I'm updating really as I have no questions as of yet, just venting really.

Janey said:

So a little update. In the end I tried the injections for a few weeks but they didn't help, so I agreed to the MRI (they actually ended up doing a CT scan, I have no idea why, no I got a phone call with the results yeterday which don't seem good.

I was on Oxford street when I got the phone call so not ideal but from what I understand he has complex and different situations in each ear, there was a lot of talk of an operation and what that could do but also the fact it is a big op etc, to cut a long story short I'm going to see the vet on Wednesday where he said he can draw me diagrams etc to explain and decide on the next step.

I'm gutted, I really didn't want to put him through an operation, especially such a big one on each ear. Also he didn't do amazingly with the sedation for the CT scans and they had to keep him in overrnight because his temp dropped.

I'm not sure why but it's also hard to accept he's so poorly, I think it's because other than a very slightly dropped right side of his face he is acting fine. This seems to make the decision making even harder as its like I've got a happy bunny.

Not sure why I'm updating really as I have no questions as of yet, just venting really.

Click to expand...

I am sorry to hear that the news is not great. I would wait until you have had a proper face-to-face discussion with the Vet before trying to decide what to do. I had a Rabbit with similar problems and I opted not to proceed with surgery. Bernie (my Rabbit) was about 7 at the time of diagnosis and I was not prepared to put her through such major surgery. She was not in any pain and she too only had a 'wonky face' as a symptom. She lived for another couple of years on longterm abx. Her passing was not related to her ear infection.

Each case will be different and what is right for one will not be so for others. I am sure that you and your Vet will do whatever is best as you are the only ones in a position to make that judgement.

Do let us know how you get on xx

Janey said:

So a little update. In the end I tried the injections for a few weeks but they didn't help, so I agreed to the MRI (they actually ended up doing a CT scan, I have no idea why, no I got a phone call with the results yeterday which don't seem good.

I was on Oxford street when I got the phone call so not ideal but from what I understand he has complex and different situations in each ear, there was a lot of talk of an operation and what that could do but also the fact it is a big op etc, to cut a long story short I'm going to see the vet on Wednesday where he said he can draw me diagrams etc to explain and decide on the next step.

I'm gutted, I really didn't want to put him through an operation, especially such a big one on each ear. Also he didn't do amazingly with the sedation for the CT scans and they had to keep him in overrnight because his temp dropped.

I'm not sure why but it's also hard to accept he's so poorly, I think it's because other than a very slightly dropped right side of his face he is acting fine. This seems to make the decision making even harder as its like I've got a happy bunny.

Not sure why I'm updating really as I have no questions as of yet, just venting really.

Click to expand...

Oh I'm so sorry Janey. I have thought of you and wondered how it was going for you and the little one ...

I have known of rabbits who have had the op and never looked back - they have been so well afterwards. However, this is something to discuss with your vet, and if necessary, get a second opinion.

You really need to know exactly what's going on in each ear before you and your vet make a decision.

Good luck with it all xx

Thanks Jane & thank for thinking of us MightyMax. I think you are both right, there is no point thinking about it too much until I have spoken to the vet, unfortunately the one who has been treating him is off for 2 weeks but before she went she told me she had handed over to another vet and he is the one I spoke to yesterday, he seemed knowledgeable about the situation so I have my fingers crossed.

I just hate these decisions where you are never quite sure which is the right one, I had them with my previous buns dental situation and like with Jane's Bernie, she did well on the injections and never had the surgery then passed from something unrelated a couple of years later.

Anyhow, think I just need to spoil him for the time being in case I decide to opt for the op, he's such a lovely little man.

sounds like you are doing everything you can for him, you are finding out lots of info to make an informed decision. dont forget to take care of yourself as well as bun x


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk