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  • Please Note - Medical Advice

    Please keep in mind that posts on this forum are from members of the public sharing personal opinions. It is not a replacement for qualified medical advice from a veterinarian. Many illnesses share similar symptoms but require different treatments. A medical exam is necessary for an accurate diagnosis, without which appropriate treatment cannot be given.

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    Urgent Medical Advice: If you need, or think you might need, urgent medical advice you should contact a vet. If it is out of working hours phone your vet's normal number and there should be an answer phone message with instructions on what to do.

Fiver again - U/D post #107 - May 5 - doing much better

Sorry, I can't recall MimzMum .. is he on Metacam, or do you have some in the house? I don't know if you've discussed this latest incident with your vet, but could it be worth giving him some if so? Or Arnica (if you use that sort of thing). Those will help with pain for strains and injuries.

Have you tried tempting him with alfalfa hay, herbs or something fresh from the garden?

I somehow feel there's a bigger picture here ..... xxx sending loads of vibes across the water xxx

Yes, he has been on metacam for at least a year now, 0.25 mls twice a day for arthritis. He got some this morning after I noticed his foot, with his baytril dose which is 0.1 mls twice a day as well.
It's the dog metacam if that makes a difference.

When he is particularly uncomfortable I sometimes bump the dose of metacam up to 0.3 mls for one dose. Usually this works well for him. But the vet we saw Tuesday wants me to keep the dosage low as he wants to do liver and kidney tests on Monday and was concerned that Fiver was drinking to excess indicating kidney damage. But really he just drinks a lot of water. It's strange seeing him drink less today, which I blame on the baytril. His poos are still golden, but smaller than usual today too. Possibly his gut is slowing a bit with all the stress and the lack of fluid.

I do not have arnica. Whereas I used to keep holistics in the house for myself, the only thing I keep now are echinacea/goldenseal drops (kids strength) and manuka honey. I am not as skilled with herbs as I should be.
We have no forage yet, snow is just disappearing and the hayseed hasn't sprouted. :( I would give my left leg for some dandelion or plantain right about now!

I'm going to see if he'd like his kale sprig. If he takes that willingly and enjoys it then I'm seeing things that aren't there. If he's not happy with it I will be more ill at ease.
 
Yes, he has been on metacam for at least a year now, 0.25 mls twice a day for arthritis. He got some this morning after I noticed his foot, with his baytril dose which is 0.1 mls twice a day as well.
It's the dog metacam if that makes a difference.

When he is particularly uncomfortable I sometimes bump the dose of metacam up to 0.3 mls for one dose. Usually this works well for him. But the vet we saw Tuesday wants me to keep the dosage low as he wants to do liver and kidney tests on Monday and was concerned that Fiver was drinking to excess indicating kidney damage. But really he just drinks a lot of water. It's strange seeing him drink less today, which I blame on the baytril. His poos are still golden, but smaller than usual today too. Possibly his gut is slowing a bit with all the stress and the lack of fluid.

I do not have arnica. Whereas I used to keep holistics in the house for myself, the only thing I keep now are echinacea/goldenseal drops (kids strength) and manuka honey. I am not as skilled with herbs as I should be.
We have no forage yet, snow is just disappearing and the hayseed hasn't sprouted. :( I would give my left leg for some dandelion or plantain right about now!

I'm going to see if he'd like his kale sprig. If he takes that willingly and enjoys it then I'm seeing things that aren't there. If he's not happy with it I will be more ill at ease.

Yes, good plan. I am of your mind though, as I said in my previous post, that I feel there's a bigger picture going on here. I hope the vet's diagnostics can piece together the puzzle.

If he needs more pain relief because of the leg, perhaps the vet could consider tramadol - it's particularly good for soft tissue pain (if that's what it is). There is also Gabapentin for nerve-damage related pain ... and of course it's also used in cases of seizures.

Apologies if you already know all of this, or it's been discussed here already .... I'm about falling asleep at my computer :)
 
He took his kale although at first he looked at it like I'd just handed him a three headed Martian. :shock:
Nibbled it down but meh...no great reaction like I'm used to. Usually when the greens come out he goes bonkers. :(
I forgot to ask about alternative painkillers, mostly because the vet was certain he wasn't in pain from all the manipulating she was doing and no reactions. :? But I will ask about it in future. We've been considering tramadol and gabapentin for Mimzy because his spondylosis is rapidly outstretching his available metacam doses.

I really do wonder if Fiver is a bit tummy uncomfy. He really isn't drinking enough to suit me. I don't want to stress him with syringed or sub q fluids, so maybe just some extra veggies today will do the trick and less stalky hay. I have some lovely third cut timothy here he might be tempted to munch.

Thanks so much for sticking with me MM. :) I know it's late there. You should get some rest. ;) xxxx
 
Yes, he has been on metacam for at least a year now, 0.25 mls twice a day for arthritis. He got some this morning after I noticed his foot, with his baytril dose which is 0.1 mls twice a day as well.
It's the dog metacam if that makes a difference.

When he is particularly uncomfortable I sometimes bump the dose of metacam up to 0.3 mls for one dose. Usually this works well for him. But the vet we saw Tuesday wants me to keep the dosage low as he wants to do liver and kidney tests on Monday and was concerned that Fiver was drinking to excess indicating kidney damage. But really he just drinks a lot of water. It's strange seeing him drink less today, which I blame on the baytril. His poos are still golden, but smaller than usual today too. Possibly his gut is slowing a bit with all the stress and the lack of fluid.

I do not have arnica. Whereas I used to keep holistics in the house for myself, the only thing I keep now are echinacea/goldenseal drops (kids strength) and manuka honey. I am not as skilled with herbs as I should be.
We have no forage yet, snow is just disappearing and the hayseed hasn't sprouted. :( I would give my left leg for some dandelion or plantain right about now!

I'm going to see if he'd like his kale sprig. If he takes that willingly and enjoys it then I'm seeing things that aren't there. If he's not happy with it I will be more ill at ease.

M, I am obviously not a Vet and I can only base my opinion on my unqualified experience. But all you have said re Fiver really does make me think he has sustained an injury causing nerve damage to the leg. Especially given that you say he was having a mad binky just before it happened. Personally I would focus on keeping him comfortable and not allowing him to charge about/jump up on things. He has his Metacam, that and a few days rest may allow the injury to start to heal.

Have you ever had a 'dead shoulder' caused by a trapped nerve ? I have and initially it was very painful but then it was just numb, occasionally tingly. Over a period of about 2 weeks and with anti-inflammatories (which at that time I could take even though I cant now) the problem very slowly resolved. For those 2 weeks I had little use of my arm as the shoulder joint would not co-operate. The trapped nerve problem was directly related to the arthritis in my neck/spine. So maybe this is a problem related to Fiver's arthritis too ??

Stress can certainly reduce gut motility, but as you say he is also in need of a Dental that too can effect it. I know this is rather 'pot/kettle/black' coming from me, but try as hard as you can not to be too distressed, Fiver will pick up on that. I really do understand how hard it is not to try to second guess all the 'what ifs'. But I also know (although I usually fail to be able to utilise that knowledge ........) that there is no point stressing about things that may not happen.

I know in your last PM you mentioned C's imminent surgery. I realise how very anxious you all are about her and how amazingly courageous she has been coping with all the diagnostics. It must make things doubly hard when living in a relatively remote area and having to travel vast distances over difficult terrain to get to Hospitals/Doctors/Vets. I learned that when we lived up in Shetland. When I was admitted to Hospital for AN I had to be flown down to Aberdeen.

Maybe the Morsey things you and C have will help a little, just seeing his dear daft face always helps me when I feel over-whelmed. I am sending you all millions of vibes, I know that the coming few days are going to be difficult for you. I wish I could do more to help, you have been such a wonderful friend to me.

((((((((((((((((((((((((Hugs)))))))))))))))))))))))))) xx
 
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Jane, thank you so much. Your post has really helped me. I was so hoping you would have an opinion on this and that it would be one that could help dispel the cloud I've been under today. :)
You know, I was really surprised when the vet said there was no break, although I had felt the leg myself and found nothing that alarmed me. I just naturally jumped to the conclusion of it being the seizure when she said nerve damage. Of course she did seem to think it was brain centered, but I would think something like that might present with more areas of the body affected, not just one.

I have to admit, when I heard him bouncing about early this morning, I thought it odd, but lovely that he was feeling so enervated. I didn't hear any cry of distress or sudden crashing to indicate a collision or fall, and when I left to walk the dogs he did seem fine. (There was probably an hour or more between his binkying and my going out.) But I know that bunnies can feel little to no pain at first when they injure themselves and then it manifests later. (I've been following Binx's thread :( and yet didn't think of this in that context at first.)

I don't think I've ever had the trapped shoulder nerve, but I have slipped my back out on more than one occasion. The pain is excruciating so I was mostly concerned that this is something that Fiver would feel if he'd hurt himself. He has been sitting on the bed with me for most of the day and seems totally normal, but for that foot. It has totally folded under him now and he's not using it at all. I can see I'll need to clean his left eye for him for the time being if he'll allow me.

He's not moving about much so maybe he knows he's not supposed to. This happened with my son's former dog also when my OH accidentally backed the car over him, his spine had been fractured and he knew to just lay down and wait till we could get him to the vet. (Not before he'd bitten my OH's hand pretty deeply though, can't blame the poor lad.)

I have done my best to try to keep things calm around him. I really can't help but worry and of course it's just demoralizing to see that little foot all tucked up. But otherwise Fiver seems okay, maybe a bit confused as to why the leg isn't moving. But I'd almost venture that he's already accepted that it's useless for the moment. It is really amazing what animals can do with a disability or injury. I'd probably have been in a corner crying in my coffee if my leg suddenly didn't work. :(

I'm posting these shots I have of his left front leg tonight. He does pretty well using the right to balance himself if he needs to get somewhere. Just hope he can keep this one tucked well away so it doesn't trip him up or get caught in anything. I'm thinking of cutting down his litter boxes so there's one side with no lip at all so he can just walk into it until he has healed, if he is going to at all.

(He was a bit sleepy in this one, it's not a look of pain, I promise.)

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Again Jane, thank you so much. Your insight is invaluable to me. Bless you. xxxx
 
Hi bunny momma, thank you for your kind thoughts. :)
I really can't reschedule the diagnostics as these were meant to determine the reason behind the seizure in the first place, plus get his dental done in case it was a tooth root problem. It's bad enough that the vet who saw him Tuesday is not on duty again till Monday, so I can't even discuss this with him. And he is not Fiver's regular vet either so that has me unhappy. I think she might take a different tack if she were here.

I really hope this will resolve itself, but I have that nagging voice that is telling me this is more than what we're seeing. He is just so "off" this afternoon. Could be something simple as his own confusion over his 'dead' limb or a stomach ache or too much back and forth between here and town. He could be picking up on me, but since he's usually never bothered with my moods I kinda think not.

I don't want to just consign him to fate, I feel like there's something right in front of me that I'm missing, so it's frustrating.
Last time I just sat on things that I thought were not much to worry about, I suddenly had a bunny with severe head tilt on his way to the ER vet on a weekend evening. I don't like to be clueless.
He's the baby too, so that makes it even harder to take. I just really want him to be okay and comfortable and neither seems likely at the moment.

But thank you for your support. It really is invaluable to have people I can speak to about bunnies because few close to me want to do that.

You will get through this, and so will Fiver. Allow me to share my recent experience with a seizure bunny. If Fiver has a kidney infection, it could be very painful and the kidney problem or pain can cause the seizures. The Baytril should help, as will Medicam, and of course TLC. In my experience, I learned that just as bunnies can change quickly for the worse, they can change quickly for the better.

Like you, when my bunnies get ill, I spend more time trying to think of every possibility to the extent I tie myself in knots. Over the three decades I owned bunnies, I had many more successes than failures. Yet when I had those which did not improve, I blame myself for missing the early signs, not doing enough, or even doing too much--you know the drill. Even though it is hard, you must have faith in yourself and in Fiver's determination.

Me and my bunnies will be thinking about you and Fiver and praying for a good outcome.
 
Thank you bunny momma. :) Your prayers are greatly appreciated. :)
I was unaware that kidney infections/pain could cause seizures. :shock: Not sure if that was what the vet was going for in prescribing the baytril, but it will hopefully help clear that up.
Would you happen to know if the amount of metacam he is receiving would be counterproductive to his kidneys healing if they are infected? I know he needs to keep up on pain relief but if he should be using something other than metacam I suppose it would be good to discuss with the vet.

Almost time for his medications tonight, so I'd best get moving and prepare them. He is still just sitting next to me on the bed. Little sweetie, he really seems to want the company. :love:
 
Even if the problem is neurological then it seems that Fiver is coping. He has the benefit of not thinking 'what if', he just deals with how he feels right now. He appears not to be distressed or in pain and he's behaving normally bar the fact that his leg wont work. To him that may be a bit :? but not anywhere near as :cry: as it feels to you.
I prescribe you a large dose of 'Mindfulness' http://bemindful.co.uk/about-mindfulness/ (maybe I'll take a dose today too..................)

and more ((((((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))))))) xx
 
Thank you Jane :love:
I think I'll have my daughter take a peek at this site too. Maybe it will help her with her pre-surgical anxiety.
Thanks too for the hugs. :love: I hope you have a good day today. :) xxxx
 
Thank you Jane :love:
I think I'll have my daughter take a peek at this site too. Maybe it will help her with her pre-surgical anxiety.
Thanks too for the hugs. :love: I hope you have a good day today. :) xxxx

Please say 'Hi' and lots and lots of good luck' to C for her surgery :love:
 
Thank you bunny momma. :) Your prayers are greatly appreciated. :)
I was unaware that kidney infections/pain could cause seizures. :shock: Not sure if that was what the vet was going for in prescribing the baytril, but it will hopefully help clear that up.
Would you happen to know if the amount of metacam he is receiving would be counterproductive to his kidneys healing if they are infected? I know he needs to keep up on pain relief but if he should be using something other than metacam I suppose it would be good to discuss with the vet.

Almost time for his medications tonight, so I'd best get moving and prepare them. He is still just sitting next to me on the bed. Little sweetie, he really seems to want the company. :love:

I am not sure of the reason, but perhaps toxins build up in the tissues and cause seizures when the kidneys are compromised.

My vet explained they are now more conservative in Medicam dosing because it may damage kidneys if used long term at the higher end of the dosage. Some vets have gone back to 1X per day (I was told it lasts longer than 12 hours but less than 24 hours) instead of splitting the dosage. That being said, my vet also will allow a higher end dosage if necessary to control pain for short periods (a few days only) because the alternatives are narcotics which can cause slower digestion (plus they are controlled substances in the US). Medicam is also an anti-inflamatory which is an added benefit for arthritis and other issues. I am not sure if our Medicam is the same strength, but my 1kg bunny gets .15ml once per day for arthritis.

It is always encouraging when our bunnies want to be next to us and enjoy our company. Have a good sleep tonight.
 
Still awake at 2 AM here, just got finished with the pets' clean up. Fiver has hardly eaten anything and isn't drinking water. He hasn't even tried to have a lie down since I returned him to his habitat.
I've given him a bit more greens and he ate them rather slowly. Not his usual gusto.
Okay, just watching him trying to lap water from his bowl (he also has a bottle) and it's like he can hardly figure out how to do it.
He just tried stretching out, turned to his left side like he was going to bite it, then sat back up.
He has had his metacam for the night. He can't have any more till tomorrow. :(
I am also concerned that the baytril is irritating his stomach too much for him to enjoy his food. He will take green lettuce or kale off me but I don't see him eating hay. His poos are continuing to shrink.
I don't want to have to think of running him in again but I'm phoning the vet in the morning if he hasn't eaten or drunk anything. This is getting disturbing.
 
Still awake at 2 AM here, just got finished with the pets' clean up. Fiver has hardly eaten anything and isn't drinking water. He hasn't even tried to have a lie down since I returned him to his habitat.
I've given him a bit more greens and he ate them rather slowly. Not his usual gusto.
Okay, just watching him trying to lap water from his bowl (he also has a bottle) and it's like he can hardly figure out how to do it.
He just tried stretching out, turned to his left side like he was going to bite it, then sat back up.
He has had his metacam for the night. He can't have any more till tomorrow. :(
I am also concerned that the baytril is irritating his stomach too much for him to enjoy his food. He will take green lettuce or kale off me but I don't see him eating hay. His poos are continuing to shrink.
I don't want to have to think of running him in again but I'm phoning the vet in the morning if he hasn't eaten or drunk anything. This is getting disturbing.

I am sorry to hear that he is not doing so well within himself now. Because you have mentioned that he needs a Dental then of course his lack of eating and subsequent GI tract slow down may be due to that. But if you feel that he is now acting strangely then that could indicate a neurological problem.

I assume the Vet you saw checked his neurological responses ? Things like the reaction of his pupils when a light is shone into the eye ? I do wish I could be of more help, but it appears that there are lots of possible reasons for his symptoms and I guess only diagnostics can establish what is going on for him. I really do empathise with you, it is so stressful when we have no real idea of what may be wrong. Is there likely to be a Vet available tomorrow (or rather later this morning your time) whom you have some trust in ?
 
I'm afraid the only vet who is available all weekend is the one we saw earlier today. The vet who saw him Tuesday will not be on till Monday now. The vet I truly trust with all the bunnies is not even scheduled for April/May as she works at the University. :(
I just saw him try to scratch his ear/face with his left rear foot and he couldn't get it off the ground. Not certain if it was because he can't balance (I'd think the front right foot would do for that, shouldn't it?) or because he is becoming unable to lift it. He was stretching it out straight up his body earlier whilst relaxing with me. :(

I worry that this is something progressive, since I know he had to have some reactive feeling in the front left earlier today when I was examining it after first noticing the problem. He was pulling it away from me because he didn't want me touching it which was why I thought it was sprained. He didn't do that for the vet and I forgot to mention it.
She did not look in his eyes with a light. She just concentrated on yanking his leg around to elicit a response. I doubt she has much knowledge of bunnies even though she is described as an exotics vet who treats them.

He's bunloafed now and looks like he's trying to rest. I scratched his ear for him. He is kind of stretched out but he is still bearing most of his body weight on his right front leg to balance. I can't see the left as he's turned away from me.
Just so worried for him. It's a relentless drumbeat that something is worse and the only different thing he has had this week is that baytril. :? Is there even a remote possibility that it is having a toxic effect on his brain and nerves?
 
I am useless with medical advice but wanted to send positive vibes for Fivers problems and special vibes for your daughters operation. You must be frantic with worry. Xxx
 
Thank you Amanda xx
Yeah, it's been a tough couple of years. Between all that's going on with my daughter, my OH's chronic health conditions, still trying to get the family out of Alaska and watching most of my animals reach an age where they're starting to have regular health problems...it's getting on top of me. :(
I appreciate the vibes very much. Thank you. :) xxxx
 
I'm afraid the only vet who is available all weekend is the one we saw earlier today. The vet who saw him Tuesday will not be on till Monday now. The vet I truly trust with all the bunnies is not even scheduled for April/May as she works at the University. :(
I just saw him try to scratch his ear/face with his left rear foot and he couldn't get it off the ground. Not certain if it was because he can't balance (I'd think the front right foot would do for that, shouldn't it?) or because he is becoming unable to lift it. He was stretching it out straight up his body earlier whilst relaxing with me. :(

I worry that this is something progressive, since I know he had to have some reactive feeling in the front left earlier today when I was examining it after first noticing the problem. He was pulling it away from me because he didn't want me touching it which was why I thought it was sprained. He didn't do that for the vet and I forgot to mention it.
She did not look in his eyes with a light. She just concentrated on yanking his leg around to elicit a response. I doubt she has much knowledge of bunnies even though she is described as an exotics vet who treats them.

He's bunloafed now and looks like he's trying to rest. I scratched his ear for him. He is kind of stretched out but he is still bearing most of his body weight on his right front leg to balance. I can't see the left as he's turned away from me.
Just so worried for him. It's a relentless drumbeat that something is worse and the only different thing he has had this week is that baytril. :? Is there even a remote possibility that it is having a toxic effect on his brain and nerves?

I really dont think that is likely, there is absolutely no mention of neurotoxic effects here:

http://wildpro.twycrosszoo.org/S/00Chem/ChComplex/Enrofloxacin.htm

The only mention of it here relates to cats and is apparently very rare.

http://www.drugs.com/vet/baytril-enrofloxacin-antibacterial-tablets.html

Did he not start on the Baytril after the suspected seizure ?
 
Still awake at 2 AM here, just got finished with the pets' clean up. Fiver has hardly eaten anything and isn't drinking water. He hasn't even tried to have a lie down since I returned him to his habitat.
I've given him a bit more greens and he ate them rather slowly. Not his usual gusto.
Okay, just watching him trying to lap water from his bowl (he also has a bottle) and it's like he can hardly figure out how to do it.
He just tried stretching out, turned to his left side like he was going to bite it, then sat back up.
He has had his metacam for the night. He can't have any more till tomorrow. :(
I am also concerned that the baytril is irritating his stomach too much for him to enjoy his food. He will take green lettuce or kale off me but I don't see him eating hay. His poos are continuing to shrink.
I don't want to have to think of running him in again but I'm phoning the vet in the morning if he hasn't eaten or drunk anything. This is getting disturbing.

Oh I'm sorry you got to bed so late and that you're still worried about poor Fiver. I hope that the fact he hasn't eaten anything much is down to the fact that he needs a dental and nothing more sinister.

Topping up the many ((((( vibes ))))) for him to be rested, his leg to heal and his other problems to be solved soon. I wish I could magic away your stress zoo, it's very debilitating, as you know xx
 
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