Doing much better - head tilt, ongoing weightloss, history of recurrent stasis

My Barney was anemic :wave: In his case it was through malnutrition. It's rather complicated but the simple version is that he was eating a lot of high nutrient foods but his gut was not in good enough health to extract the nutrients properly. This caused him to lose weight whilst otherwise seeming healthy to the non-expert vet.

It's just something to consider, especially as they are not eating caecals. Bear in mind that gut problems can often be secondary to other illnesses and diet, so it's not a complete answer, but if they do end up doing xrays of his teeth it may be worth asking them to do one of his tummy whilst he is under.

What do the vets say about his gut when they listen to it and feel it? Any gas or obstructions or slowness?

Thanks Nessar. Did you find a way to manage it and what did you do?

Also anyone with experience of it, what kind of things can be done to help manage tooth roots if that turned out to be a factor?

Just trying to get everything together for different eventualities.

I'll run those ideas past the vet tomorrow if I can speak to him, and get Lambchop another appointment.

RabbitBears said:

Thanks Nessar. Did you find a way to manage it and what did you do?

Also anyone with experience of it, what kind of things can be done to help manage tooth roots if that turned out to be a factor?

Just trying to get everything together for different eventualities.

I'll run those ideas past the vet tomorrow if I can speak to him, and get Lambchop another appointment.

Click to expand...

Barney has quite specific issues, some other health problems and not all the same symptoms, so bear that in mind, but yes, his condition is managed. He'll never be cured, but the symptoms and the weightloss are managed with two gut stimulants (emeprid and zantac) and painkillers (metacam) daily. The emeprid used to be enough on its own, but he has developed a tolerence to it. The gut stimulants speed the gut up which prevents the pain and the gas and keep him eating. But the main thing for him is his diet - he has to have a stricter diet than most bunnies. He has to eat loads of hay or his gut starts getting bad again, and even though he is a good hay eater it is a battle to keep him eating enough. He also has pellets (fibafirst and excel mature), a small amount of profibre pellets and small amounts of non lettucey, non sugary, non carby, non gassy greens. We actually went against common sense to get him better - we fed him lower-calorie foods and less of them (apart from hay), because rabbit's guts are designed for high-fibre, low-nutrient foods and don't do so well with high-nutrient ones. I did this under vet supervision by the way, and I wouldn't advocate doing it without the vet's go-head, he saw the vet at least every 2 weeks, as it is something that needs doing very gradually and carefully when you are dealing with an underweight bunny.

He was very ill when he was finally diagnosed two years ago, he was actually starving to death, and whilst he'll never be 'better' and he is still skinny, he's not dangerously thin anymore, he is happy and he is still here. But he wouldn't be here if we hadn't got that diagnosis, so keep exploring your options and don't be afraid to suggest tests that you think may help.

Thanks Nessar. That's interesting and makes sense.

Thing is, before the teeth stuff kicked off, they were practically on that diet already, under vets advice. It seemed to (more or less) stop their stasis episodes, but not their weight loss. (They weren't underweight when they started the diet, but weren't over, and had been losing).

The last few weeks they have been getting extra critical care, again on vets advice.

nessar said:

keep exploring your options and don't be afraid to suggest tests that you think may help.

Click to expand...

This is the point isn't it? I'm going to keep going for them and not let them down.

ETA just wanted to add that I'm glad Barney is doing better now.

Another update for anyone interested

We had a follow up appointment at the vets today and Lambchop had lost a little more weight :? so he was given a b12 injection. He's certainly seeming more perky since we got back.

I questioned the poo sample situation with the vet and I'm to collect a 3 day sample of both cecals and fecals.

I've also noticed over the last couple of days, after running out and finding some in a neighbours garden in a panic after Lambchop had a day where he was off his hay, that they're loving grass and it seems to do them good, healthier poos and happier rabbits, so I've ordered some seeds and am going to see if I can grow some to give to them more regularly.

I mentioned that Lambchop has still been intermittently drooling, and discussed tooth roots. He said it was a possibility, but as it's limited what they can really do and he was satisfied his teeth seem outwardly better, with no sign of the pain he was clearly showing on being touched around his mouth before, we both agreed another GA for Lambchop so soon isn't in his best interests at the moment. That's maybe something to consider investigating further down the line or if and when he needs another dental.

If the poo tests come back negative, we will probably put them both on a 28 day course of panacur in case it's EC.

Thanks everyone again for your thoughts and suggestions.

RabbitBears said:

Another update for anyone interested

We had a follow up appointment at the vets today and Lambchop had lost a little more weight :? so he was given a b12 injection. He's certainly seeming more perky since we got back.

I questioned the poo sample situation with the vet and I'm to collect a 3 day sample of both cecals and fecals.

I've also noticed over the last couple of days, after running out and finding some in a neighbours garden in a panic after Lambchop had a day where he was off his hay, that they're loving grass and it seems to do them good, healthier poos and happier rabbits, so I've ordered some seeds and am going to see if I can grow some to give to them more regularly.

I mentioned that Lambchop has still been intermittently drooling, and discussed tooth roots. He said it was a possibility, but as it's limited what they can really do and he was satisfied his teeth seem outwardly better, with no sign of the pain he was clearly showing on being touched around his mouth before, we both agreed another GA for Lambchop so soon isn't in his best interests at the moment. That's maybe something to consider investigating further down the line or if and when he needs another dental.

If the poo tests come back negative, we will probably put them both on a 28 day course of panacur in case it's EC.

Thanks everyone again for your thoughts and suggestions.

Click to expand...

I hope that you and the Vet can get to the bottom of what is going on. The 'not knowing' can be extremely stressful xx

Thanks Jane. x

Have you tried Readigrass in case fresh isn't available?

They've had some in the past, and do sometimes like it. They haven't responded to it as well as the fresh but I've just ordered another bag in case it helps, can't really do any harm and it's a bit tricky to ensure they get fresh every day when I don't have a garden!

Ok - another update

Lambchop seemed to develop a slight head tilt yesterday :? so both are now on 28 days of Lapizole and it may indeed be ec that has been causing the problems. I'm still collecting the poo samples, and we'll take it from there.

Thanks again everyone for your support.

A little update for anyone interested:

The poo samples came back negative, I collected a 3 day fecal and cecal sample, so we're as confident as we can be that there is no coccidiosis or bacterial infection in their guts. I was suspecting that would be the case after Lambchop's head tilt developed, and kind of relieved as if there had of been we would have had to have been dealing with multiple infections really at this point...

Lambchop still has a head tilt but is coping ok. We were back at the vets earlier this week. he had gained 100g (so now at 1.2kg) which is excellent. First weight gain from either of them in about 6 months. Smudge had stayed stable at around 1.3kg. I'd like them both at about 1.7kg ideally I think, so there is still a way to go... suspect the vitamin b12 injection that Lambchop had helped him get back on track after losing a bit more post his dental.

They're currently on Lapazole (28 day course) and Lambchop is getting a bit of metacam as well. Have bought a steam cleaner (ouch) and have already steam cleaned the carpet once, as well as sterilizing the litter tray and bowls. Will do again on days 21 and 28.

I asked the vet whether he thought Lambchop should be on antibiotics in case he has a middle ear infection but he was satisfied that he seems to be doing well and considering their prior symptoms it is more likely to be ec. Does that sound ok to everyone? We have agreed to re-evaluate if his treatment seems to stall, and they're back in another week to be weighed again.

I've ordered them some avro pro C and they're still getting a bit of critical care out a bowl every day on top of their regular diet.

Thank you everyone, any vibes that we're finally getting to the bottom of this would be much appreciated.

My personal experience with head tilt is that it is usually more likely to be a bacterial middle ear infection rather than EC. But of course that does not mean it is not EC in Lambchops case. Is he a Lop ?

I hope that they will both continue to improve and get back to a better weight xx

I thought I'd do a (fingers crossed) final update on this in case anyone comes across the thread looking for possible solutions for their own rabbit.

Obviously, this was only what worked for Lambchop and might not apply in other situations.

I'm pleased to say that at the moment they're both doing really well! Lambchop still has a very slight residual head tilt, much improved. He will likely need dentals throughout his life. They also both get some excess cecals from time to time, but better than it used to be. The most important thing is that they've continued to gain weight and seem to have a lot more of their sparkle back. My vet is really satisfied with their progress and has said they now only need to come back in if I have any concerns or as and when Lambchop is due another dental. He had another one two weeks ago so we are suspecting he may need one again in late Jan.

Lambchop is now 1.48kg, which considering he got down to 1.1kg is fantastic. Smudge is 1.46kg. We'd like at least another couple of hundred grams on each of them ideally, so I'm to keep keeping on with critical care off a dish at lunch time, their prebiotics will continue too.

See the rest of the thread to find the whole long story of their illness. Whilst it's tricky to know what did the job in their case, they did both begin to improve and put on weight once they were started on the right dose of lapazole, and the fact that Lambchop's headtilt has also improved suggests to me that EC might well have been a factor for them. I do therefore wonder whether it also contributed to their previous repeat stasis episodes.

In addition to the lapazole they have both had:
prebiotics in their water (avipro). Whether because of EC damage or another reason, I suspect they'll always have sensitive GI tracts and that helps support them.
VitB12 injections - Lambchop in particular had a number of these, and getting one seemed to turn Smudge around. I've heard they help them be able to absorb nutrients again which may be why.
Metacam for Lambchop's head tilt
Extra food - Oxbow Critical Care once or twice a day, Protexin Pro fibre pellets scattered or in a treat ball once or twice a day.
Getting regular dentals for Lambchop even though to the previous vet his teeth looked "fine" that old chestnut that small spurs can cause problems for some rabbits.

I've learnt a lot along the way. Thanks for all those who gave advice here, Lambchop is indeed a lop and I was worried for a while that they weren't on antibiotics for a middle ear infection, my new vet was sure we should try what we did first, and fingers crossed that seems to have worked in this case. I really appreciate the support on here at a difficult time, and people like Jane taking time from lives which i know are stressful to let me know my rabbit was cared about meant a lot.

I'm so grateful to my vet as well, and so glad I changed vets when I did as I'm pretty sure Lambchop would not be here now otherwise. We got a little emotional together about how well he's doing yesterday which was a really nice moment.

Good wishes to all of you and all your pets.

Really glad lamb chop is doing better I hope he continues to improve. As you said, it may be a combination of things that made him better but if it is working then keep at it

If you ever did want to check whether he had an ear infection, they could do an X-ray when he was under for a dental, to prevent having to put him under unnecessarily.