Daisy's Hay Only Diet - Cecal Dysbiosis!

Thought Id start this thread more for my own record!

History: Daisy is a mini lop and slightly overweight she has been around 2.1 to 2.3kg for much of her adult life. She lives with her husbun Dudley also a minilop who is a normal weight. She lives for her food and every moulting season used to have a period of squishy cecotrophs, I put this down to stress. More recently she has had persistent squishy cecotrophs I initially thought it was because she was overweight and was sitting on normal cecotrophs but on further investigation the cecotrophs are malformed very odorous and stick to her bottom.

I have cut out all treats (Fenugreek Crunchies) and pellets Science Selective and tried to reduce down her veg and herbs which they have morning and evening. I also supplemented the diet with 2 scoops aday of protexin profibre pellets, unfortunately this has not worked and she seems to be getting worse.

As of this morning I am only feeding hay (good quality grass hay from different providers) I have bought a huge hay basket and filled it.

I feel absolutely dreadful, it goes against every instinct I have not to give them other food, I feel like Im starving them and will do more damage than good. I was nose nudged to an inch of my life with them demanding their veggies this morning I feel awful I tried to do separate feeding but it was impossible they are free range and follow each other everywhere and Daisy can sense when food is being dished out. She is a good hay eater but I worry about Dudley who is a healthy normal weight but doesnt eat as much hay :?

I love them to pieces and I just want my baby to be healthy and well. We have a vet appointment on Saturday to discuss the situation and to get Daisy weighed to see if her weight has changed over the last month or so!

Questions:
1/Should I feed ONLY hay at this point in time or can I feed some fresh grass? I read in FHBs book that grass should be as good as hay as it has both indigestible fibre and the fermentable fibre, but obviously not as rich as the supermarket veg which should be better for the caecum?
2/Is there anything I should get the vet to do at this point i.e. palpate her ceacum to feel for anything unusual (what?), a poo smear to look at the current unbalanced microflora to see if it's something else?

I don't have any answers, but wishing you and them the best of luck. Daisy is a similar weight to Mr McFlurry, but he's never really looked or felt particularly chubby - I think he's just a fairly large mini lop.

I do think larger minilops (whether its a bigger body frame or carry a bit of excess weight) have trouble grooming, just becuase of the shape they are bred to. I've noticed that there are bits of his rear quarters that Mr McFlurry cannot reach, but Spenser seems to have not trouble spending several minutes at a time grooming his tail.

What hays are you giving them as a matter of interest? Are herbal hays allowed at all?

Thank you! Yes there's definitely a little 'skirt' area around her tail she can't seem to groom. Dudley has no trouble but is smaller!

Today they have stalky Dust Free Hay, coarse Timothy and Rye from Hay for Pets, Timothy hay from Alfalfa King, Excel Timothy hay with marigold and dandelion and a small sprinkling of dried grass.

I have no idea if I should be giving the Excel one or the dried grass. I'm not really sure what I'm doing at all!

I don't know an awful lot about this but what I would do is keep them on hay only for a while to see if the problem with the caceos clears up, then start adding things in in very small amounts to see if you can pinpoint the problem. I had to do the ssame recently when B got a messy bum, I've got most things back in his diet with no problems now.

I'd be interested to hear what your vet says as to why she's overweight as it seems she has a healthy dietand I imagine as you're a regular on here you're not overfeeding the pellets? I have the same problem with annabelle, she has a tiny tiny amount of pellets, hardly any fruit and veg and not everyday, and she's actually round, rugby ball shaped!

I hope you can get both problems sorted!

Just saw the bit about dried grass, normally of course its fine, but just wanted to say that I have used it to bulk barney up, so I assume it is richer than hay. Might be something to watch.

That sounds like quite a nice selection of hays. At least Daisy is a good hay eater - you would feel much worse if she wasn't!

I bought Spenser some of the Alfafa King timothy hay, and he will not eat it, the rascal. It looks and smells so good I could almost eat it myself. Maybe you can train your mind to accept they are still getting a varied diet - after all you must be spending a fair bit on posh hays. :roll:

I've always heard and thought dried grass is as good as hay, although this and grass based hays (like orchard grass) tend to produce darker poops.

I could be wrong about this but I thought Alfalfa hay was a treat hay really, quite rich. Do they normally have it? I'm wondering if that might contribute to the problem. Teddy is at least part mini lop and his weight is stable around 2k so not much different and our vet always pronounces him in perfect condition (when he's well with no tummy trouble anyway). We find Ted gets a mucky bum if he has too many pellets (I've started counting them now, 10 each morning and night) and he's been great with this, eats loads of hay and does perfect poos. He gets a mucky bum prior to going into stasis as well but I'm assuming there are no other health issues with Daisy?

Daisy did used to have quite a few Fenugreek Crunchies but she hasn't had anything for months now. They only ever had about 6 pellets each a day of Science Selective, VERY rarely any fruit so yes, I think they had a good diet. Nearly everything I've read has said it's related to a poor diet so Im worried that there is something else and there's a problem with her caecum I might cut out the dried grass for the time being.

Yes its getting rather expensive with all the hays! I hoping to get a delivery of a bale of hay from a new farm hay supplier to mix in with it too. Plus on my way home tonight I'm going to try and get a bag of Oxbow Orchard Grass!

martlou said:

I could be wrong about this but I thought Alfalfa hay was a treat hay really, quite rich. Do they normally have it? I'm wondering if that might contribute to the problem. Teddy is at least part mini lop and his weight is stable around 2k so not much different and our vet always pronounces him in perfect condition (when he's well with no tummy trouble anyway). We find Ted gets a mucky bum if he has too many pellets (I've started counting them now, 10 each morning and night) and he's been great with this, eats loads of hay and does perfect poos. He gets a mucky bum prior to going into stasis as well but I'm assuming there are no other health issues with Daisy?

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I think, maybe like me first time round, you mis-read what Boudicca wrote, Daisy isn't having Alfalfa hay, but Alfalfa King's Timothy Hay, confusing isn't it? :lol:

Hope this helps with Daisy's weight

It's difficult, but it is for her best. Bunnies will beg whether full or not (the majority) so i wouldn't worry too much

martlou said:

I could be wrong about this but I thought Alfalfa hay was a treat hay really, quite rich. Do they normally have it? I'm wondering if that might contribute to the problem. Teddy is at least part mini lop and his weight is stable around 2k so not much different and our vet always pronounces him in perfect condition (when he's well with no tummy trouble anyway). We find Ted gets a mucky bum if he has too many pellets (I've started counting them now, 10 each morning and night) and he's been great with this, eats loads of hay and does perfect poos. He gets a mucky bum prior to going into stasis as well but I'm assuming there are no other health issues with Daisy?

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Yes you're quite right :thumb: Alfalfa wouldn't be appropriate in this situation, I don't feed Alfalfa, 'Alfalfa King' is the name of a company who produce some types of hay, they do a nice Timothy hay which mine like and also a green oat hay but it's quite pricey. No, no other health issues with Daisy at all, it's very strange!

GrahamL said:

I think, maybe like me first time round, you mis-read what Boudicca wrote, Daisy isn't having Alfalfa hay, but Alfalfa King's Timothy Hay, confusing isn't it? :lol:

Hope this helps with Daisy's weight

It's difficult, but it is for her best. Bunnies will beg whether full or not (the majority) so i wouldn't worry too much

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:lol: you beat me to it with the 'Alfalfa King'!

Yes Im hoping to finally see a difference with her weight and Im pining all my hopes on this working! I hate this 'cruel to be kind', it's killing me, I'm dreading going home as they really will be hngry and waiting for veggies

Boudicca said:

:lol: you beat me to it with the 'Alfalfa King'!

Yes Im hoping to finally see a difference with her weight and Im pining all my hopes on this working! I hate this 'cruel to be kind', it's killing me, I'm dreading going home as they really will be hngry and waiting for veggies

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They won't be massively hungry, they will cope It's just a change, you aren't starving them.

B&G's diet is 99% hay and 6 pellets each per day, with a small handful (and i mean small) of herbs at lunchtime.

When Ginger needed hay pushing, we cut everything except hay + profibre (for her, its different to waht you are doing it for), she was absolutely fine. It's best for her, take solace in that

Boudicca said:

Yes its getting rather expensive with all the hays! I hoping to get a delivery of a bale of hay from a new farm hay supplier to mix in with it too. Plus on my way home tonight I'm going to try and get a bag of Oxbow Orchard Grass!

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Even Mr Fussy likes orchard grass (although he has been less impressed by the current batch). I have to order it online - don't know anywhere local that stocks it.

Spenser's diet isn't as good as it should be, but it's improved since he came indoors as I don't feel the urge to feed him a treat every time I see him (I pretty much did this when he was a hutch bunny).

Ah yes sorry I did read that wrong I didn't think Ted and Rosie had many pellets a day but actually they have quite a lot in comparison - 20 each . They are in really good health and both eat loads of hay so this seems to be ok. If I ever need to cut this down though I won't feel too bad :lol:

Thanks Graham it really helps to hear you say that as I need the reassurance and encouragement that what I'm doing can't harm them!

Daisy is so angry, I've just filled up their hay baskets and included some new Oat Hay and Daisy is glaring at me and has just thumped!!! They didn't have any orchard grass so I'll have to order some, if Spenser eats it it must be good

My goodness there are a lot of large golden poops scattered around this morning I'm just wondering if I should add something like Biolapis to the water for extra vitamins and extra good bacteria?!

You're doing fine They too will be fine and the increase in golden poops shows that their guts are doing fine with it too

Bio-lapis won't provide vitamins for them a far as I know; it is a probiotic so balances gut bacteria. My vet says that with good quality hays they shouldn't need anything additional, if that helps

Sky-O said:

You're doing fine They too will be fine and the increase in golden poops shows that their guts are doing fine with it too

Bio-lapis won't provide vitamins for them a far as I know; it is a probiotic so balances gut bacteria. My vet says that with good quality hays they shouldn't need anything additional, if that helps

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I second this, our vet says the same :wave:

You're welcome Boudicca - i often come here for re-assurance for something im doing also, its nice to hear others in the same boat as you say they've done the same thing, just gives you that little boost you need sometimes to confirm


I think you should take some pics of Dudley & Daisy for us

Boudicca said:

My goodness there are a lot of large golden poops scattered around this morning I'm just wondering if I should add something like Biolapis to the water for extra vitamins and extra good bacteria?!

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Wow! :shock::thumb:

Good luck if you try adding biolapis to water. Spenser was very rude about it. :roll:

Sky-O said:

You're doing fine They too will be fine and the increase in golden poops shows that their guts are doing fine with it too

Bio-lapis won't provide vitamins for them a far as I know; it is a probiotic so balances gut bacteria. My vet says that with good quality hays they shouldn't need anything additional, if that helps

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I agree also. My vet at the time said the same too :wave:

Nutritional deficiencies do not occur over weeks/months but rather much more long term if there is going to be a problem. A good quality hay with a variety of grasses means that this ideally should not occur at all. :wave: