Unusual mycobactrial infection of GI tract presenting as dysautonomia.

thumps_ said:

I'm totally flummoxed by what is going on. Thumper has a non functioning caecum, but there is little to show for it symptomatically. His poops were infinately worse 2 years ago before I found Marie. [For 6 weeks he oozed foul smelling dark olive green "toothpaste" with hardly any waste poops. Because the GP vet couldn't help, I started the "wild diet" concept.]
The waste poops show perfect fiber separation, & are dry & friable.
He must be eating the fine nutrient component, but I can't understand how, if he hasn't got a caecum working to ferment it in. :?:?:?:?

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Just a thought... could it be that the caecum emptied quite radically during the malformed caecotroph 'splats' and it is taking time to refill again? Which is why you have not seen any caecotrophs since then? As far as I was aware their is a special section of the gut just infront of the caecum which sorts large particles and smaller particles - causing peristaltic waves in opposite directions - so the large fibre particles are still passing out as normal droppings and the smaller particles for fermentation are reaching the caecum and now waiting to be processed... perhaps his caecum was rather empty due to the flaccid portion and the normal section emptying it out the other day?
Either that or the metacam has reduced the inflammation in the caecum which has in turn allowed the inhibited nerves or muscles (whichever was affected) to fire again and things are begining to work normally? Have you seen him consume any caecotrophs since the outpouring a few days ago? I am hopeful that the latter may be taking place... I suppose a repeat ultrasound is on the cards at some stage?

Yes, it's a good thought.
The caecotroph material in a "splat" is different from anyother we've had. It's sticky & tarry, & there isn't much of it in comparison to the normal waste poops - just enough to bind them together in a big blob.

The other odd thing is that after a year of protesting against metacam Thumps suddenly can't get enough of it!! He sucks the syringe.
I don't know if it's helping pain or inflammation, but he certainly likes it.

I haven't seen him eating caecs recently. His whole rythmn has changed. They were starting to happen in the middle of waste poops, & he'd eat them. He's got to have eaten some ceacs in the last 24 hours. Or maybe his caecum has kick started again & it's gone all in there? It's a large enough sack!

I suppose it's going to be up & down a bit.
Not so good this last 24 hours. He hasn't eaten much, poops got much smaller & fewer of them & then a "splat" this morning.
This is an previous"splat"


He also started to moult in earnest today, so I'm stroking him alot with damp hands to get as much fur off as I can. Moult is another stress/stasis precipitating factor for a bun.
There were 3 dry sneezes last night. (I'm trying to keep a record - with 2 potential issues, I dread snuffles)

Both my two dry sneeze from time to time as you know. Daily usually but they are one-off sneezes as are thumpers. There isn't much you can do at this point. I suspect our dry, low humidity houses are partly to blame.

Judy that caecotroph 'splat' isn't as bad as I was expecting at all - I can see some 'grape' formation in that. Poppy has done a lot worse than that on occasion she has had extreme upset, even Nino once after the chlorine veg from supermarket T! I'm not trying to minimise your situation at all.... but hopefully to reassure you that it could be worse.. if that makes sense. I wonder what many of us with buns in an 'upset phase' would find on US?! I'm keeping everything crossed the inflammation settles and his caecum reinflates itself correctly. Hoping you have a better evening and night x

prettylupin said:

Both my two dry sneeze from time to time as you know. Daily usually but they are one-off sneezes as are thumpers. There isn't much you can do at this point. I suspect our dry, low humidity houses are partly to blame.

Judy that caecotroph 'splat' isn't as bad as I was expecting at all - I can see some 'grape' formation in that. Poppy has done a lot worse than that on occasion she has had extreme upset, even Nino once after the chlorine veg from supermarket T! I'm not trying to minimise your situation at all.... but hopefully to reassure you that it could be worse.. if that makes sense. I wonder what many of us with buns in an 'upset phase' would find on US?! I'm keeping everything crossed the inflammation settles and his caecum reinflates itself correctly. Hoping you have a better evening and night x

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I'm sorry I can't do close up photo's with my camera. The "grape" parts are actually waste poops, (pure fiber when dissected), & they are held together in a ball by sticky, tarry, unformed "caec type" stuff.

ETA Thank you so much for your reassurances about the sneezing. Marie also reassures me. It's just that he didn't sneeze at all until 8 months ago. Hey don't tell me my house has dried out at last!! But seriously, I haven't had heating on since mid March.

thumps_ said:

I'm sorry I can't do close up photo's with my camera. The "grape" parts are actually waste poops, (pure fiber when dissected), & they are held together in a ball by sticky, tarry, unformed "caec type" stuff.

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Oh, not so good then, sorry it was hard to tell from the photo - I can see now what you mean
Hope things pick up this evening

I'm so silly. We've had a lot of heavy rain & it's cold again. Here am I worrying about the cold wet grass on Thumper's now bald lower tummy when we go out, as if he were stupid. He'll just take himself back indoors if it's too cold, as always!!:roll:

thumps_ said:

ETA Thank you so much for your reassurances about the sneezing. Marie also reassures me. It's just that he didn't sneeze at all until 8 months ago. Hey don't tell me my house has dried out at last!! But seriously, I haven't had heating on since mid March.

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Well if he does have a sub-clinical infection (as i suspect mine do) it may have flared up a bit with all his recent ill health and vet trips... but he's doing a blimmin' good job keeping it under control considering what he has been through this winter.

Sending loads more vibes to lovely Thumper :wave:

It sounds positive that he's been munching away on his grasses and brambles and hawthorn. And good news for meds time that he likes his metacam now

Hope you are doing ok too and that you manage to keep the bunny trousers on :lol: Seriously though, hope you're finding time to look after yourself as well as Thumper and are managing to get enough rest and eating well

how are you and thumper doing :wave::wave::wave:

donnamt said:

how are you and thumper doing :wave::wave::wave:

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Thank you every one.
To be honest I'm very worried indeed, but actually feel numb. I need to look at dates to be sure, but we seem to have gone for a month with no more than 3 consecutive days of improved poops. It's as if he goes in & out of stasis for a few hours every few days. This is despite 2 weeks of almost continuous Zantac & every trick in the book he's taught me over the last almost 5 years, plus bunny psychology of "allogrooming" a sick bunny, & regular short periods of excercise.

He picked up over a few hours last night, & felt well enough to run round the garden playing with me, even doing binkies. His poops also improved dramatically to normal size, with a few tear drop shaped poops & a couple of "capsules" (about 3 times the length of a normal poop). He's not drunk for 24 hours, & his wee is sludgy this morning. Some poops are very hard & some are like a wet sponge -(when squeezed they flatten releasing moisture, but hold shape, & do not stain)
I've been as poop obsessed as this ever since I've had him - had to be to avoid ileus. I'm worried because we're doing everything possible & making no impact, although he's never had long term meds before.
The good thing is that there is no evidence of serious dysbiosis in the poops coming out. They smell normal to me, & I think I've just seen him eat caecs.

I need to go out & have a little cry I think.
ETA I've always respected him if he doesn't want to be stroked. Our code is that if he lies with his front paws almost on top of each other he wants to be stroked. Front paws apart = "please leave me alone". He's become a big softee recently.

thumps_ said:

Thank you every one.
To be honest I'm very worried indeed, but actually feel numb. I need to look at dates to be sure, but we seem to have gone for a month with no more than 3 consecutive days of improved poops. It's as if he goes in & out of stasis for a few hours every few days. This is despite 2 weeks of almost continuous Zantac & every trick in the book he's taught me over the last almost 5 years, plus bunny psychology of "allogrooming" a sick bunny, & regular short periods of excercise.

He picked up over a few hours last night, & felt well enough to run round the garden playing with me, even doing binkies. His poops also improved dramatically to normal size, with a few tear drop shaped poops & a couple of "capsules" (about 3 times the length of a normal poop). He's not drunk for 24 hours, & his wee is sludgy this morning. Some poops are very hard & some are like a wet sponge -(when squeezed they flatten releasing moisture, but hold shape, & do not stain)
I've been as poop obsessed as this ever since I've had him - had to be to avoid ileus. I'm worried because we're doing everything possible & making no impact, although he's never had long term meds before.
The good thing is that there is no evidence of serious dysbiosis in the poops coming out. They smell normal to me, & I think I've just seen him eat caecs.

I need to go out & have a little cry I think.

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im sorry the meds arent helping yet, the medication pearl had affected her poops quite a lot to the point where i couldnt tell whos was whos and she had always had huge golden ones before.

when will you next be seeing the vet to assess him hun? as you remember Pearl was always at deaths door in my eyes and it took an outsider to tell me she wasnt really as bad as i thought at that time.

loads of virtual hugs for you xxxxxxx

Oh to an outsider there doesn't seem anything wrong with him at all!
It's those subtle signs, of going into his hidey hole, ear position, disinterest in a run outside. All equals tummy very unhappy indeed, & all he showed for the last admission for stasis.

Sure I've worried about him a lot over the 5 years - who wouldn't? But I've only felt our back was against the wall & we were losing once before. Wild oats leaves pulled him out of it then, but they're not doing so now. He's such a little toughee.
I must ask Marie whether we should aim for a dental at the end of this week. I don't think his tummy can take any more in the way of spur issues as well.

I'm really sorry things aren't so good

I know they have very different issues, but while Daisy was on her three weeks of Zantac things remained pretty bad in terms of poos, but after the course finished she's improved dramatically. That's no help of course if Thumps is on meds for the longterm, but maybe it's a case of taking a while to get into his system and then you'll start to see an improvement.

Such a worry for you with the dental looming too

Sending vibes for Thumper and hugs to you. xx

giantbunnymummy said:

I'm really sorry things aren't so good

I know they have very different issues, but while Daisy was on her three weeks of Zantac things remained pretty bad in terms of poos, but after the course finished she's improved dramatically. That's no help of course if Thumps is on meds for the longterm, but maybe it's a case of taking a while to get into his system and then you'll start to see an improvement.

Such a worry for you with the dental looming too

Sending vibes for Thumper and hugs to you. xx

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I'm delighted that Daisy has improved. That's fantastic news!!
Everything crossed that she goes from strength to strength over the summer. It's so lovely how those of us with Tummy Bunnies stick together on here.

Thumper's just had a major temper tantrum after his meds, sprayed me, & managed a new type of poop! Mid brown it looks like a waste poop in size, but it's all caec material. Will someone please tell him I want boring normal bunny poops not the guiness book of records for new inventions! :roll:

thumps_ said:

Will someone please tell him I want boring normal bunny poops not the guiness book of records for new inventions! :roll:

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Naughty Thumper for spraying you! Shows hes still got plenty of spirit though Sending 'be good and do nice, normal poos' vibes.

I still think bramble leaves are Daisy's best friend with her tummy problems (so another huge thank you for that :wave: ). She has a big pile of them every day and loves them. Jester is a big fan too.

*MASSIVE AND HUGE HUG*

Don't despair yet. The fact that he's been doing binkies is a great sign. Thinking of you lots.

Thank you every one. I don't get sprayed very often, but it doubles me up laughing, because by pure chance Thumper sprays me, in exactly the same context as some people would swear using the same word. "Stop ing me off". :lol::lol::lol::lol:

thumps_ said:

It's those subtle signs, of going into his hidey hole, ear position, disinterest in a run outside. All equals tummy very unhappy indeed, & all he showed for the last admission for stasis.

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But these are the critical signs I have always felt, and just goes to show that you are not missing a thing and that you are doing your best for him. We can not do any more than our best. I think the binkies are a sign that despite it all he is happy and secure and still enjoying life.

I hope you can get this dental sorted out before things deteriorate. It must be a constant worry amongst all the other worries. Be brave... like Thumper
I'm sure once the medicine really has a chance to work things will improve. Lots of get well wishes for Thumps and hoping above all for some boring rabbit droppings! xx

Thanks for all your encouragement everyone.
I've just realised how much I depend on Thumper's one "up" ear, to know how he's feeling. He communicates a massive range of feeling that way. I'd be lost with a proper lop eared bun!