Oscar has been to see FHB - awful news, he's gone :'(

Oscar is being treated for his runny nose. He is currently on 0.2ml of baytril twice daily. His nose is still running.

I know nothing about snuffles/pasteurella or how it is treated, will it ever go away.

Please can I have as much advice as possible about it.

I think you will find a lot of info on current thread Spider - # 3 -pretty luin posts direct links -
http://www. rabbit.org/pasteurella.html
http://www. rabbitwelfare.co.uk resou... multocida htm.
http://www. medirabbit.com/EN/Respira...terial/URI.pdf.

Biscandmatt current thread http://forums. rabbitrehome.org.uk./ show thread php?t 189817 is having current success with 2nd line treatment.

Snuffles is basically a bacterial infection in the upper nasal passages & surrounding tissues, causing inflammation & swelling which blocks the nose. Buns can only breath through the nose unless very ill indeed.
RARELY the infection can spread down to the lungs causing pneumonia. Please ask your vet about symptoms.

Many vets prescribe Baytril in the 1st. instance because the bacteria are most likely to be killed by this ab.
Roughly 1/3 snuffles is caused by pasturella bacteria
1/3 by borditella bacteria
1/3 other assorted bacteria.

There are 2 basic problems with treatment.
a) To be 100% sure you are giving the right ab. for the job, the vet has to take a specimen from high in the nose. This MAY or MAY NOT need a quick GA. The specimen is tested for the type of bacteria causing the infection & which Abs. kill the bacteria (culture & sensitivity test)
b) As in Matt's case the mucus can be so thick that the ab. can't reach all the bacteria so the snuffles returns.
Matt has a nebuliser to thin the mucus & deliver the Ab to the surface of the nasal lining, when oral Abs. repeatedly failed.

Comment ;- if the snuffles returns you need a 1st. class rabbit vet.
hope this helps you.
all the best. :wave:

I have one bun with bad snuffles, hes being treated with 1ml of baytril once a day and is on daily metacam. Baytril works for him but I know a lot of people say it hasn't helped snuffles/pasturella with their buns.

So far we haven't been able to get rid of it, he has flare ups and my vet said its chronic and for him we can only manage the infection. We had two culture and sensitivity tests done when he wasn't on antibiotics, but both came back inconclusive.

A culture and sensitivity test is the best place to start so that the best antibiotic for the infection can be used but I think it has to be done before they start antibiotics.

0.2ml seems an awfully low dose :?

Mine usually have between 0.6 and 1ml twice a day

foofoo said:

I have one bun with bad snuffles, hes being treated with 1ml of baytril once a day and is on daily metacam. Baytril works for him but I know a lot of people say it hasn't helped snuffles/pasturella with their buns.

So far we haven't been able to get rid of it, he has flare ups and my vet said its chronic and for him we can only manage the infection. We had two culture and sensitivity tests done when he wasn't on antibiotics, but both came back inconclusive.

A culture and sensitivity test is the best place to start so that the best antibiotic for the infection can be used but I think it has to be done before they start antibiotics.

Click to expand...

Isolation of the causative bacteria depends on getting the swab from the right place - high enough up. c & s can be done while on abs. but is unreliable - better leave off abs. as long as poss.

As Hugo's There says the right dose of Abs. has to be given, & it has to get to the right place, & be the right Ab for the job.
If good nasal swabs are -ve I'd be asking where else is the bug hiding?
? tear duct / sinuses. Is there a foreign body in the nose eg hay dust/grass seed?

My vet (rabbit specialist) says she doesn't find snuffles "a problem" but proceeds to different routes of administration & different Abs. as indicated. There is nebulizer even lipid based eye drops. [NOT acetic acid based Abs in the eye = vinegar - no wonder that caused irritation!!!!] A prolonged course is sometimes necessary as in Matt's case.

In all, a decision to proceed to further measures has to be made on the basis of the distress caused by the disease process vs. the distress caused by tests & treatment.

My personal interest is having suffered from a human version for years & discovering by accident that AB eye drops for conjunctivitis cured it!!:shock:

OK those links are great. Thanks so much for your advice... so if I take Oscar back to my vet... what sort of medication should I expect her to prescribe? There appears to be less discharge from his nose, however he is still sneezing.

He has been syringed fibreplex twice daily too.... should this continue (he has had 2 whole tubes)?

Also if he is already on antibiotics... then the swabs cant be done? Is this right?

Is Oscar a Dental Bun?
Elongated tooth roots (diagnosis of which requires skull radiographs) can cause persistent rhinitis.

As far as treatment goes the dose of Baytril does seem to be very small :?
Is it the Baytril 2.5% Oral Solution ? If he is on a sub-therapeatic dose then it wont have any effect other than the potential to cause resistance to the abx.

Personally I would ask the Vet about changing the abx. A combination of Septrin and Metronidazole can be effective. Alternatively a long acting Tetracycline (Engemycin LA Injection) or Depocillin Injection.

I have seen good results from administering an abx eye-drop (Tiacil) directly into the nasal passages. Although some Rabbits may find this proceeedure too stressful.

Additional help may be gained from boosting Oscar's own immune system by giving him some Echinacea in his drinking water.
Whilst it is often not possible to 'cure' a Rabbit's Snuffles symptoms can be relieved by finding the most appropriate treatment regime for the specific Bun.
A C+S is probably unlikely to be helpful unless it is done after at least 10 days off abx and taken from deep enough into the nasal passages. This may require a GA which is not ideal in a Rabbit who's respiratory tract is compromised.

I hope that your Vet can come up with a treatment plan that is more effective for Oscar

Hi Jane,

No Oscar is not a dental bun. He has never had a dental. The vet checked his teeth (although I am aware that he would need a skull x-ray to confirm) and they were quite long she said but he didnt have any spurs. Perhaps he does need a dental.... how would elongated roots be treated? His eyes are clear.

The baytril he is on is 2.5% oral. He saw another vet on Thursday I think it was because my usual vet is on holiday and he gave him an anti-inflammatory as well.

He had something very similar to this 2 years or so ago and it cleared up quite quickly after that low dose of baytril which is why I think she is trying it again. I dont know....

I would be more than willing to try Tiacil up the nose, although I think Oscar would hate me for this.... I will speak to my vet about this.

Is Septrin a widely used antibitoic? Is it given by mouth? What sort of dose should I expect to be given?

So many questions, I know. I love Oscar so much, I am very worried about him. Why does my vet always go on holiday when my bunnies become ill?

Thanks so much for all the advice, I really appreciate it. I really do.

Also.... where can I get Echinacea drops from please?

Thank you Jane. As always - top quality advice.
Especially thank you for reminding us about dental issues.

Re. Fiberplex - it's being given to prevent any antibiotic from causing imbalance in the gut bacteria - a condition called dysbiosis, & to keep the gut moving. It's a sensible measure
a) if bunny's nose is bunged up they can't eat so well & this alone can cause gut problems.
b) if your bun has had gut /dental issues in the past it's even more sensible.

I have yet to hear the results or discuss it with my vet. During the last 24hrs. I've contact with 2 people using Bisolvon (Bromhexine Hydrochloride) to thin the mucus 1 for recurrent staphylococcal snuffles - & 1 for allergy causing thick mucus. Dose is a pinch of powder on feed.

Dare I give some unsought advice? You'll have got the overall picture of snuffles now, but actually treating an individual isn't like following a recipe book. Your vet will follow a different path through the alternatives depending on whether this is the 1st. episode of snuffles, it's become a recurrent problem, other conditions your bun may have, age, temperament. An "oblique approach" of eg "I've heard of x helping some people do you think it would help here?" can save the important vet client relationship, if you are in an area where vets are few.

If you have time to keep us updated with events it would be nice.
All th best - Judy & Thumper.

Sorry x posted. The Ab. eye drops can be put in the eye as less traumatic, provided the tear duct is working. The tear duct leads to the right part of the nose to be effective, with added bonus of killing bacteria lurking in it. They should be given at the SAME time as oral or injected Abs. " attack on both fronts".
ETA
Maizey used echinacea for snuffles - researched & used many alternatives, including colloidial silver. The problem is a nightmare situation of MRSA .
ETA
I think we may be talking at cross purposes. When I speak of eye drops I mean ab. drops usually used for conjunctivitis which are also effective against the bacteria causing snuffles. Like "Spider's" current thread re "Ghostie".
I had only intended to show that there are many 2nd & 3rd. line treatments for snuffles.
At this stage I would only reconsider the ab. addition of a non steroidal antiinflammatory, & possibly Bisolvon. Adding that neither am I a vet.

oscarbunny said:

Hi Jane,

No Oscar is not a dental bun. He has never had a dental. The vet checked his teeth (although I am aware that he would need a skull x-ray to confirm) and they were quite long she said but he didnt have any spurs. Perhaps he does need a dental.... how would elongated roots be treated? His eyes are clear.

The baytril he is on is 2.5% oral. He saw another vet on Thursday I think it was because my usual vet is on holiday and he gave him an anti-inflammatory as well.

He had something very similar to this 2 years or so ago and it cleared up quite quickly after that low dose of baytril which is why I think she is trying it again. I dont know....

I would be more than willing to try Tiacil up the nose, although I think Oscar would hate me for this.... I will speak to my vet about this.

Is Septrin a widely used antibitoic? Is it given by mouth? What sort of dose should I expect to be given?

So many questions, I know. I love Oscar so much, I am very worried about him. Why does my vet always go on holiday when my bunnies become ill?

Thanks so much for all the advice, I really appreciate it. I really do.

Click to expand...

If your Vet thought that Oscar's teeth were long then it is possible that by now his tooth roots have elongated. Basically the longer the teeth become the more likely it is that the tooth roots will elongate. Hence many Vets will burr the molars down to gum level during a Dental. Once the tooth roots have elongated it is usually a case of having to manage a chronic condition.

With regards to the Baytril dose the amount he is on is 5mg twice a day. The usual dose rate for oral Baytril is 10mg/kg twice a day. So unless Oscar is a teeny-weeny Bunny (ie weighs about 500g !!) he is not on a therapeutic dose which may well be why its not working. He will never get a high enough concentration of the abx into his bloodstream.

Septrin is frequently used for Rabbits, although as with so many drugs it is not licenced for Rabbits. Your Vet can still prescribe it though. It is an oral paediatric suspension (Banana Flavoured !)

Personally I would prefer to administer the Tiacil directly into the nasal passages rather than into the eye (and rely on the nasolacrimal duct to drain it into the nose). Purely because if the duct is so far functioning and not infected I would want to avoid direct contact with the abx and anti-inflammatories in Tiacil. But as I am not a Vet I am only going on 'gut feeling' rather than a qualified opinion.

Good luck with the next Vets appointment

Thanks again everyone! I will of course keep you updated on Oscar's progress with regards to his treatment.

Ok.... so some more questions now (sorry). I am beginning to feel slightly more knowledgable about snuffles.

If his tooth roots are elongated, should I press for a x-ray/dental still or not? Is it still bacterial if it is caused by elongated roots? Or is it purely.... dental issues here.

Also... how long can fibreplex be given? Are there any side effects? And what is Bisolvon?! I've never heard of it.

Thanks thumps and Jack's Jane xx

Just an update with Oscar and his snuffles.

Went back to the vets today and Oscar bunny has been given Ranaxan which has to be given with a pill giver.... :?

I gave him one earlier and he chewed it and then swallowed it... even though it was supposed to go down whole. At least he swallowed it.

I didnt realise you could give rabbits tablets... however my vet said she had a rabbit specialist (vet) work with her in their practice and they used tablets in rabbits on a regular basis. So....

Anyway... I hope this works.

Just to add something else to this - my vet recommends Ceporex injections, and has had lots of success.
I have 2 buns with snuffles now both at different stages of treatment. As I understand it Ceporex treats a broader spectrum of bactrium that cause snuffles. It is a long treatment to shift completely however it does improve it quite quickly.
I have also been using Bisolven dissolved in water or Chamomile tea. ( I read chamomile tea can be good at shifting cattarah - can't do any harm)

Also when I have a hot steamy bath - bring the bun into the bathroom and add Olbus oil to some hot water in the sink - has given mine fast relief from symptoms

Good luck with your bun ...hope this helps

Hope the new treatment works for Oscar and that you see some improvement soon. I also use olbas oil, I put some on a tissue near fudges cage.

I love my vet (more than one reason.. :lol and he's given me a 0.4ml twice daily of 2.5% Baytril orally. He's asked me to give her Fibreplex too but I've completely forgotton too.. I feel like such an awful bunny mummy
She got an injection of Metacam and an injection of Baytril on her consultation and then the day after she started the 2 week course.
He then said afterwards if it hasn't cleared then we'll try a drug that breaks down the mucus or something.. ? Do you know what I'm talking about?

I think it might be Bisolvon as Shel said which dissolves the mucus, I'm not entirely sure.

Thanks for the vibes everyone, I will keep you updated on Oscar's progress. I forgot to add that my vet said if the doxycycline didnt work then we would do nose swabs under sedation.

I love Oscar... very much

Yes, you are right - Bisolvon (Bromhexine Hydrochloride) thins down the mucus so the bacteria can't hide away out of reach of the AB's in it & then reinfect as soon as Ab's are stopped. It makes life so much more comfortable for bunny to breath. They HAVE to breath through their noses which are swollen inside & then bunged up with thick mucus. When bunnies are stressed their White blood cell count (combats bacterial infection) falls. So if they breath easier - less stressed - more able to fight infection.

Next concept. The "nose" has connecting "passages" to the sinuses, up tear ducts to the eye, to the throat obviously & from the throat to the middle ear.
Bacteria can hide away in any of these places, particularly if they are full of "gunk".

(Last concept for now) If bunny is struggling to breath, he finds it difficult to eat enough, & this can give gut issues. Any AB. by mouth can give different gut issues.

I hope you can understand the fundamental issues with snuffles now. It's complicated & a tough fight. I see no reason why we can't win, if it's treated aggressively. It's early days for some aspects of bunny medicine!