Struggling with Zigzag- not eating hay

[Zigzag]

Hi all,

Me again.... Zigzag got checked by the RVS last week, and they suspect from the blood work and urine sample that he's got early kidney disease. They've prescribed Semintra which I'm waiting for from the online pharmacy.

He was ecstatic when he returned home, was eating hay and very happy. He's now just not eating hay, and we have a range of hays here. He is running up to me for food, even hay, and is eating forage, pellets, Emeraid and everything other than hay (for now). I don't think it's time to PTS yet, because he's running up to me- but I have no idea what to do.

His poos are small and dark.

Would sub q fluids help his appetite? I know they gave him sub q fluids at the vets. I am hoping semintra helps.

I have asked Twickenham and will go back to the RVC (who I go back to every 5 minutes!). I am really struggling as there are so many other things going on, and Zigzag means a lot to me.

He also has a dodgy left eye which is weeping- tear duct related, which I am cleaning. Twick vets are aware, and I am monitoring for now

Thanks again

 

[Omi]

I'm hoping that Zigzag's current avoidance of hay is only temporary, but I can understand you wanting ideas of what to do about it if it continues. If I had to decide what to do in these circumstances I think I would firstly consider his age, ie long term effects not an issue. Then I would consider what harm is going to be done by him not eating hay. You've already identified that his poos are small and dark, so his digestive system is not working that well. You need to also consider his teeth and, from memory, I don't think he's a bunny who's had regular dentals, so possibly this and the effect on his digestion could be helped by tweaking other parts of his diet.

With his current diet, without hay, what percentage would be forage, pellets and Emeraid? Is the Emeraid because he would lose weight without it? Is the forage fresh or dried? Fresh forage obviously contains more water than dried and I suspect (but willing to be corrected on this) that fresh would wear teeth down more effectively.

I know it's easy for me to feed fresh forage and tree leaves as I have these readily available, but if it were me, I would try to give Zigzag lots of these. Tree leaves and also Bramble leaves are, in my view good for wearing down teeth and excellent for digestion. Will he nibble apple sticks or other tree sticks?

It's really encouraging that he's running up to you for food. Just a thought, will he eat Fibrefirst sticks?

 

[Zoobec]

I agree with Omi, it would be worth checking his teeth for issues. I hope he is back eating hay soon. Would he eat Readigrass? Sending lots of vibes xx

 

[InspectorMorse]

I wonder if he has some age related dental problems now. The runny eye could be indicative of tooth root elongation. Rabbits have open rooted teeth, in cases of dental disease the roots can grow too long and eventually start to interfere with internal structures within the skull such as the nasolacrimal ducts (tear ducts).The roots press on the ducts and prevent tears draining. So the Rabbit develops a chronic weepy eye(s) (dacryocystitis)

Rabbits with elongated tooth roots often stop eating hay. This is because chewing hay requires a rotational jaw action which can be painful when the tooth roots are too long. There are often molar spurs too and rotational jaw action can be more painful as the sharp spurs on the crowns of the molars will scratch the cheeks and the tongue. This eventually causes ulcers.

If renal impairment is evident from blood tests then it is already moderately advanced. Early renal impairment doesn’t always show up on a blood profile.Even moderate renal impairment can affect appetite and cause selective feeding.

With elderly health compromised Rabbits it is usually the case of being less rigid about what they ‘should’ be eating. Yes, ideally a mostly hay diet is always preferable. But if a Rabbit cannot eat hay as opposed to ‘won’t eat hay’ then trying to optimise fibre intake in other forms to minimise the impact on the functioning of the GI tract, especially the caecum, is what needs to be the focus rather than trying to force more hay eating on a Rabbit who simply cannot eat more hay (due to the dental issues mentioned above). I agree with Omi’s advice about feeding him forage and things like apple tree twigs. Also, try to optimise his water intake. This will help support renal function and aid gut motility. SQ fluids can be useful, but when to introduce them as an ongoing supportive treatment and how much/ how often needs to be carefully assessed on an individual case basis when renal impairment is involved. So it’s something you’d need to speak with a Rabbit Savvy Vet about. C is doing a clinic at TVS today. I am sure she’d give you a call back if you ask reception to request one for you. Or you could try to contact the Vet who has been seeing Zigzag at the RVC. I’d try C first, it will probably be easier to make contact with her and she will always advise you to contact the RCV if she believes that to be more appropriate.


I would monitor Zigs weight by weighing him a couple of times a week, renal impairment usually leads to weight loss eventually due to muscle catabolism. The weight loss not being caused by less calorie intake, but loss of muscle mass. As renal impairment progresses there are a few medications which can be prescribed as a supportive measure and to try to slow the rate of progression of renal failure.

If it is established that he has molar spurs then these would need to be treated. I have had numerous very elderly Rabbits with renal impairment come through a GA for essential dental treatment to be carried out. So please don’t assume that a GA would definitely mean the end for ZZ. Yes, the risk is greater, but it is perfectly possible for the Rabbit to come through the essential procedure well.

 

[a reader of books]

I'm so sorry they suspect Zigzag has early kidney disease. His not eating hay makes me think of teeth problems, too, especially combined with the weepy eye and him running up to you for hay but then not eating it, so I'd see if you can get that checked out. If he can't eat hay, it's not necessarily that bad. Sophie's first friend, Tom, couldn't eat hay because of his teeth issues, so he ate a lot of forage and fresh greens, and he did just fine. I just made sure it was always available to him, so he could eat when he wanted and as much as he wanted, like they'd normally do with hay. I put it somewhere Sophie didn't go so she couldn't eat all his food. Sending Zigzag lots of vibes, and you, too. I'm sorry you're really struggling.

 

[Pets mum]

Sending lots of vibes for Zigzag, and big hug for you xx

 

[joey&boo]

Mmmmm, whereas it does sound dental I did find with Rudey (who had kidney disease) he just didn't like dried food much. He barely ate any hay as time went on . He loved fresh grass though. Can you try him on some fresh grass? Grass is just as good as hay for wear & tear. If he refused it I think that might be a further clue its dental. I hope the new drugs arrive soon & that they help him

 

[Zigzag]

Hi everyone thank you for all of your lovely messages, and positive vibes. I will respond to them properly, I’m having quite a bad day.

He ate a few bits of hay earlier, which is a positive. The vet couldn’t see any teeth issues, but there could be something going on with the tooth roots, I’m waiting for a response from the RVC to respond. Jo did say something about this earlier

Here’s a pic of Zigzag eating veg earlier. I just cleaned his eye (which stank of cheese) and he’s giving me the death stare. I’m giving my husband the death stare because he doesn’t participate in rabbit care!

 

[InspectorMorse]

Hi everyone thank you for all of your lovely messages, and positive vibes. I will respond to them properly, I’m having quite a bad day.

He ate a few bits of hay earlier, which is a positive. The vet couldn’t see any teeth issues, but there could be something going on with the tooth roots, I’m waiting for a response from the RVC to respond. Jo did say something about this earlier

Here’s a pic of Zigzag eating veg earlier. I just cleaned his eye (which stank of cheese) and he’s giving me the death stare. I’m giving my husband the death stare because he doesn’t participate in rabbit care!

Sounds as though there is infection in the eye. Is the eyeball bulging at all or is the third eyelid very visible? Retrobulbar abscess is another *possibility* or an abscess in the nasolacrimal duct. Both can be caused by tooth root problems, amongst other things.

Hope the Vet gets back to you ASAP.

 

[Zoobec]

Sending more vibes xx

 

[bunny momma]

His wanting to eat, even if it is not hay, is a positive. Sending vibes you and your vet can find a way to manage his condition so you have a lot more time together. Sub q fluids may help him feel better with his kidney issue; though it may not help his hay eating.
I am sending vibes for you both.

 

[Zigzag]

Hi again, thanks for everyone’s lovely comments and support. Zigzag is testing me!

Zigzag still isn’t interested in hay, and he made quite a strange chewing sound for a few minutes earlier today, so I’ll get hold of Twickenham vets on Monday. I do think it’s a tooth root molar issue on the left side as you’ve mentioned JJ, thanks for explaining how the teeth affect the eye. As you’ve said he can’t eat hay, rather than won’t it. The eye discharge still smells very cheesy, but the eye isn’t too runny. The Beaumont aren’t too concerned about the hay issue, because they feel his poos aren’t as bad as they could be…

I’m in a tricky situation because GA isn’t really an option, as he has an ongoing respiratory illness and a small abscess in his right lung. The RVC are really not keen on doing a dental, because he may pass during surgery. Twickenham are reluctant to do a dental and have previously asked the Beaumont to burr his teeth if needed! JJ when you had elderly buns that went under GA for dental issues, did any of them have a respiratory issue?

Omi thanks for giving me an idea of what to forage, I recognise bramble leaves thankfully- we have a raspberry plant in our front garden as well. There are also pear trees on our road, that don’t fruit. I can’t work out what percentage of food he eats is pellets/ forage. He gets a lot of fresh herbs, which I soak in water. The forage is dried and he gets one scoop of pellets. I give him two large portions of Emeraid twice a day. I didn’t know that fresh veg and leaves could wear down his teeth btw.

He has had about 2 dentals before, but around 2 years ago, and I have a strong feeling that the abscess was there at the time.

Reader and Joey, thanks for sharing your experiences. Quite relieved that you’ve had bunnies with similar experiences. Reader do you remember how much veg and fresh forage you gave? Did Tom get wet poops a result?

Joey I can get grass, I’ve started to get some, but would I need an amount that’s the size of his body?! No idea what I’m doing.

I’ll continue monitoring his weight.

If anyone has any suggestions on increasing fibre intake, please let me know.

And can I grind hay down completely and try to feed that to him?

Thank you

Poo below!

 

[InspectorMorse]

Yes, I have had older Rabbits with histories of RTIs go under GA. Obviously knowing the significant risk, but it was that or the Rabbit would have to be PTS as they had severe molar spurs causing ulcers. They couldn’t be left in pain and end up starving to death.

I suspect ZZ has a tooth root related dental abscess. The cheesy smell is a classic symptom.Don’t be surprised if there is suddenly a copious amount of pusy discharge from his eye/down his nose. This happens when the abscess bursts, which usually happens eventually. If there is an abscess it could already be draining into his mouth and he’d swallow the pus.

 

[Zigzag]

Well obviously I’m really hoping you’re wrong! (Thanks for letting me know your thoughts! I just cleaned the area around the eye- really does smell of artificial cheese.

What happens if he does have an abscess? Does it just burst? When I speak to Twick is there anything I should mention? I’m a bit surprised the Beaumont didn’t flag it

 

[Omi]

Which Emeraid are you feeding? Have just been looking at the ingredients and Emeraid Sustain contains Timothy Hay as the largest ingredient, so if he is having two large portions per day, I really don't think I would worry too much about him not eating hay. Also, the grass that j&b suggested, would in my view perhaps be even better than him eating hay, because it will add moisture. Looking at his poo pic, as well, whilst they are small, they don't look that bad and you can actually see the bits of hay within them (presumably from Emeraid). I wouldn't worry about grinding down hay for him. You would probably only get the digestive benefit from it as he wouldn't be wearing his teeth down to eat it.

So in my view you shouldn't beat yourself up about his diet as it is. I personally would continue with adding grass, fresh forage especially leaves, as much moisture with fresh food and leave everything else as is.

 

[InspectorMorse]

Well obviously I’m really hoping you’re wrong! (Thanks for letting me know your thoughts! I just cleaned the area around the eye- really does smell of artificial cheese.

What happens if he does have an abscess? Does it just burst? When I speak to Twick is there anything I should mention? I’m a bit surprised the Beaumont didn’t flag it

Vet would need to examine ZZ. What treatment is needed will depend on what is found on examination. Skull radiographs are usually part of the diagnostics, but as this would require sedation then in ZZ’s case the Vet is probably more likely to treat on an assumption of an abscess rather than risking the sedation.

 

[Barn Yard Bunnies]

Sending hugs xxx

 

[Zigzag]

Thanks Omi for looking at the ingredients. That’s something I clearly looked at last year, and not now when I needed to! So great you pointed it out. Agree that his poos don’t look too bad overall, and I’m getting a medium bunch of fresh grass per day.

I did actually grind some hay and he wasn’t into it at all, so you’re right, I’ll try my best not to worry. Although that never happens, as there is always something.

JJ I will see what Twickenham say on Monday. Although he was examined by Jo on the 1 Nov, and had the leaky eye then. I had a feel around his jaw today, and he didn’t flinch, which could be a positive sign. I’m trying to stay positive!

I bought a home laser as you suggested in another thread, and I think there has been some benefit, so glad you suggested it.

 

[InspectorMorse]

I think C is doing a clinic tomorrow, but she’s fully booked so you might need to see one of the other Vets. Tell the Receptionist ZZ definitely needs to be seen as you suspect he has an active infection in his eye and he is elderly with a history of respiratory infections. Thus any active bacterial infection needs prompt abx treatment. These days ( post big corporate take over…) some of the Receptionists are less Rabbit Savvy than I would like so you often need to advocate strongly for the Rabbit.