Pets at home adoptions

[adoptafosteredbunny]

Just been reading through the document my OH had to sign when we adopted the buns the other day. You're contractually obliged to:
'I promise to give this pet a good caring home. If in rented accommodation, I have checked with the landlord that I can keep a pet. I will not sell, abandon or give this pet to someone else and if I am unable to keep or maintain it, I will return it to Support Adoption for Pets.
If adopting a rabbit that has not already been neutered I agree to have it neutered within 6 months of giving it a home.
I have received neutering voucher etc. I will also keep the pet fully vaccinated and wormed throughout its life.
I am responsible for the pets health and veterinary costs etc.'

At least people know not to abandon and that the adoption center will take back pets...I hope people take this form seriously.
People should have to sign a contract like this for ANY pet I think. And then need to be fined heavily when they don't do the above!

 

[tabithakat64]

It sounds like P@H are trying to promote rabbit welfare. My local P@H has animals from the RSPCA in it's adoption section so it's not just old stock...

 

[Rosie42]

It sounds like P@H are trying to promote rabbit welfare. My local P@H has animals from the RSPCA in it's adoption section so it's not just old stock...

How does that work though? Because with the traditional P@H 'adoption' centre there is no set adoption fee or home check. Do you just express an interest in the rabbits while in store and then have to do everything else through the RSPCA?

 

[ashbunny]

By far the worst thing about the adoption section is the fact that there is demand for it at all. I'm willing to bet that 99% of the adoption stock were originally sold at the same store. Maybe if they sold better accommodation, had better staff training, so people knew what they would be taking on, they might sell less rabbits but at least less would end up being dumped back on their doorstep??

I worked at PAH years ago before they had the adoption sections, and a customer brought back 2 roborovski hamsters because she'd realised they weren't suitable for children. She hadn't done any research on them and my 2 colleagues who sold them to her had given her the wrong information. She didn't get her money back, and the store made twice the profit on the same hamsters. I don't see how it's much difference here, ok you get a neutering voucher but as Bunny Buddy said that's to sell their vets to you.

The problem is with the "contracts" is that they are unenforceable. It's the same with rescues - I had to sign a form when we adopted Bailey to say that we would return him rather than rehoming him ourselves, etc, but obviously they don't have the resources to follow it up.

 

[Bunny Buddy]

By far the worst thing about the adoption section is the fact that there is demand for it at all. I'm willing to bet that 99% of the adoption stock were originally sold at the same store. Maybe if they sold better accommodation, had better staff training, so people knew what they would be taking on, they might sell less rabbits but at least less would end up being dumped back on their doorstep??

I worked at PAH years ago before they had the adoption sections, and a customer brought back 2 roborovski hamsters because she'd realised they weren't suitable for children. She hadn't done any research on them and my 2 colleagues who sold them to her had given her the wrong information. She didn't get her money back, and the store made twice the profit on the same hamsters. I don't see how it's much difference here, ok you get a neutering voucher but as Bunny Buddy said that's to sell their vets to you.The problem is with the "contracts" is that they are unenforceable. It's the same with rescues - I had to sign a form when we adopted Bailey to say that we would return him rather than rehoming him ourselves, etc, but obviously they don't have the resources to follow it up.

The cynic in me says that's why they are offering free vaccinations now. If they really cared the rabbits would be vaccinated as soon as possible before being put up for adoption/sale. I took Theo, who I adopted from Support Adoption, for vaccination (paid for) at V4P simply because he needed a pre-op assessment anyway and it was less stress for him to have it done there instead of a separate trip to my usual vet. There was a lot of leaflets and selling going on. Sadly for them it backfired in my case because they described themselves very much as a GP practice - from my vets I want GP practice, A&E and all the other specialities you'd find in a hospital .. plus (and a big necessity) 24/7 care available.

 

[Lady Logamorph]

The cynic in me says that's why they are offering free vaccinations now. If they really cared the rabbits would be vaccinated as soon as possible before being put up for adoption/sale. I took Theo, who I adopted from Support Adoption, for vaccination (paid for) at V4P simply because he needed a pre-op assessment anyway and it was less stress for him to have it done there instead of a separate trip to my usual vet. There was a lot of leaflets and selling going on. Sadly for them it backfired in my case because they described themselves very much as a GP practice - from my vets I want GP practice, A&E and all the other specialities you'd find in a hospital .. plus (and a big necessity) 24/7 care available.

The reason the vaccinations are done by the person who adopts the rabbits is because it is done during the health check and it's always better for the adopter to take the rabbit and speak to the vet about any special needs the rabbit may have plus to register them with their details so that the following year the person gets a reminder for health check/vaccination. If the rabbit had everything done and was just sent home with the adopter then they wouldn't realise what is needed for the rabbit and wouldn't get a reminder through either. People are free to use their local vets afterwards anyway. I work for PAH but use my local vets because I like to have a quick out of hours service I know if I ring the emergency number a vet will meet me at the surgery within 20 minutes.

 

[Bunny Buddy]

The reason the vaccinations are done by the person who adopts the rabbits is because it is done during the health check and it's always better for the adopter to take the rabbit and speak to the vet about any special needs the rabbit may have plus to register them with their details so that the following year the person gets a reminder for health check/vaccination. If the rabbit had everything done and was just sent home with the adopter then they wouldn't realise what is needed for the rabbit and wouldn't get a reminder through either. People are free to use their local vets afterwards anyway. I work for PAH but use my local vets because I like to have a quick out of hours service I know if I ring the emergency number a vet will meet me at the surgery within 20 minutes.

What use is it for the adopter to be taking the rabbit to speak to the vet and register them with their details etc with Vets for Pets/Companion Care rather than the their own vet if they will be using another vet that they are already established with? Yes, a health check is good and advisable.The V4P vet who did Theo's vaccination did a thorough health check but didn't have his records from Support Adoption so that health check would have been no more beneficial with V4P than a vet that had never met them before. It is not possible to take the vaccination information when the rabbit is adopted and transfer the rabbit into their name to trigger the vaccination reminder? The vaccination doesn't have to happen then (on adoption). It could be organised so that when he was first under the care of Support Adoption he was vaccinated then got a free health check when I adopted him, then my details being on his record so the vaccination reminder would be sent to me. 2 health checks, 1 vaccination but the vaccination done at the first one would be in the rabbits' better interest. This all theory anyway as they weren't doing free vaccinations when I adopted him, it was just the way I work to get him protected within the shortest timeframe possible.

 

[ashbunny]

I agree with the above, also if that's true then why don't they give out neutering vouchers etc to those adopting the baby rabbits?

Because many customers who buy bunnies from PAH don't realise the true requirements of rabbits in regards to cost. If they did then they wouldn't buy them in the first place and PAH wouldn't make as much money.

 

[Lady Logamorph]

The vets and PAH data isn't linked as the vets work under a franchise so they couldn't pass the information across. So if they vaccinated then that would be fine but the person wouldn't get a reminder through.

I agree ashbunny I would like to see all rabbits given with a free neutering voucher but then I suppose you have the other problem of people taking them thinking everythings paid for so they are a cheap pet.

People are explained that they will need neutering and the costs of keeping rabbits plus feeding/ given care sheets which are very good they were written in conjunction with the RSPCA and explain everything but you still get people taking them that end up giving them up.

Sometimes people have an idea thinking that will solve the rabbit problem but you have to try and think of any consequences from doing that will it make the rabbit situation better or worse?

PAH make a loss on rabbits which I know many of you will say well why sell them then? Again you have to think about what would happen if they didn't sell them. My guess is that back yard breeders would breed more as the market would move to somewhere else and rabbits would be in a worse situation like dogs where now there is a huge problem with back yard breeders and puppy mills.

 

[MightyMax]

The vets and PAH data isn't linked as the vets work under a franchise so they couldn't pass the information across. So if they vaccinated then that would be fine but the person wouldn't get a reminder through.

I agree ashbunny I would like to see all rabbits given with a free neutering voucher but then I suppose you have the other problem of people taking them thinking everythings paid for so they are a cheap pet.

People are explained that they will need neutering and the costs of keeping rabbits plus feeding/ given care sheets which are very good they were written in conjunction with the RSPCA and explain everything but you still get people taking them that end up giving them up.

Sometimes people have an idea thinking that will solve the rabbit problem but you have to try and think of any consequences from doing that will it make the rabbit situation better or worse?

PAH make a loss on rabbits which I know many of you will say well why sell them then? Again you have to think about what would happen if they didn't sell them. My guess is that back yard breeders would breed more as the market would move to somewhere else and rabbits would be in a worse situation like dogs where now there is a huge problem with back yard breeders and puppy mills.

Thank you for explaining P@H's position on rabbits. I've found this discussion very interesting. I feel that any step towards helping people adopt rabbits is a step in the right direction.

Do you know exactly where P@H sources it's rabbits? My feeling is that if everyone stopped intentionally breeding right now, there would be plenty of rabbits for everyone for years and years to come. There are always accidental litters due to mis-sexing.

If P@H makes a loss on their rabbits, then the only reason for having the babies there is to attract custom for all the other goodies. Surely people are now attracted by rescue rabbits in P@H Stores, so is there really any need for them to support breeders?

 

[Crunchie]

The breeders that P@H use are no better than backyard breeders, in fact I imagine they're quite a bit worse.

 

[Lady Logamorph]

Some of the stores rabbits are from local breeders and some from a large breeder. I agree that I can't imagine any breeding facility for any animal is nice but I do know that we employ a person who regularly inspects them and so only use ones which pass certain standards. I disagree that backyard breeders are better than large breeders in fact I think they are worse....people with no knowledge of rabbit care breeding in their back garden behind closed doors. I have seen some back yard breeders in fact one recently who I was trying to get closed down by the RSPCA and I witnessed rabbits in 2ft hutches in a very hot shed and he told me that he doesn't use vets. I agree there are enough rabbits in the UK that need homes but what I'm saying is there will always be baby rabbits bred for people for pets because there will always be a market for it...not everyone is like us lot! Even if PAH stop selling baby rabbits it won't solve the problem it will just move the market elsewhere. Look at dogs and cats...they are not sold in pet shops but there is still a huge problem with backyard breeders and people not wanting them. The only way I can see a problem to the overpopulation of pets in general is if the government steps in and regulates it.

 

[MightyMax]

Some of the stores rabbits are from local breeders and some from a large breeder. I agree that I can't imagine any breeding facility for any animal is nice but I do know that we employ a person who regularly inspects them and so only use ones which pass certain standards. I disagree that backyard breeders are better than large breeders in fact I think they are worse....people with no knowledge of rabbit care breeding in their back garden behind closed doors. I have seen some back yard breeders in fact one recently who I was trying to get closed down by the RSPCA and I witnessed rabbits in 2ft hutches in a very hot shed and he told me that he doesn't use vets. I agree there are enough rabbits in the UK that need homes but what I'm saying is there will always be baby rabbits bred for people for pets because there will always be a market for it...not everyone is like us lot! Even if PAH stop selling baby rabbits it won't solve the problem it will just move the market elsewhere. Look at dogs and cats...they are not sold in pet shops but there is still a huge problem with backyard breeders and people not wanting them. The only way I can see a problem to the overpopulation of pets in general is if the government steps in and regulates it.

No it won't solve the problem .. HOWEVER, it would send out a fabulously large message that breeding of rabbits, on the whole, is a cruel and for the foreseeable future, unnecessary process.

 

[ashbunny]

PAH uses suppliers for its animals, not breeders as such. Some animals that come into PAH have hardly ever been handled and are vicious before the staff manage to tame them. The standards of backyard breeders vary but many will at least handle the animals. The suppliers might have passed certain standards but so do battery hen farms, most animals come into the store in tiny cages and the ones they were in originally I doubt are much better.

When I worked at PAH they didn't have the "adoption" section. If a pet was ill and the managers didn't want to pay for it to be taken to the vet (they had a vet bills budget they have to stick to, so not the fault of the manager) it would be sent back to the supplier and the store would get its money back, the animal was always culled. Same if an animal wasn't being homed within a certain period of time. It says a lot about the ethics of the suppliers.

I have never bought from a breeder but I can't deny I see the attraction of buying rabbits from a decent one, and I also don't see how GOOD breeders add to the amount of rabbits in rescues. Most people who jump through the hoops to get a rabbit from a breeder (or rescue) who has certain requirements of accommodation etc are aware that they are not cheap and easy children's pets and are therefore less likely to give them up, unless it's for a situation they didn't see coming. And not everyone would get rescue bunnies instead of breeder bunnies so it's not like rescue bunnies are necessarily missing out on homes.

The main reason people buy rabbits from a pet shop over rescues is because it's easier and less hassle. Many of the customers who buy rabbits (or indeed any other pet) do so on impulse. Even if they had been persuaded before they had come into the shop most of them knew little about the animals they wanted to buy. Very very few have the accommodation sorted before the take the animals home and most buy everything on the same day. Even the PAH stores are strategically placed in retail parks where people are already there for other things and often "pop in" to have a look at the cute fluffy bunnies, and that's when it starts. Only today a friend of mine posted on FB about how she needed to go to the retail park for a few things and persuaded her kids only with promising that they could have a look at bunnies in PAH at the same time, one of her other friends commented saying "yes the last time I had that conversation we ended up agreeing to 2 guinea pigs".

PAH make their money through the sale of accommodation, food etc. Many of their customers who buy rabbit food will have bought the rabbits from there originally. So they might make a loss on the sale of the animal, but they make a profit on everything else DUE to the sale of the animal. They even use the fact that rabbits don't like quick food changes as a way to make a profit, they put all their rabbits on the PAH nuggets, which means the customer has to buy the PAH nuggets at least at first when they buy the animal. Then because the nuggets are presumably good value compared to other options, and the customer doesn't see the benefit of switching, they just keep buying them.

 

[Lady Logamorph]

No it won't solve the problem .. HOWEVER, it would send out a fabulously large message that breeding of rabbits, on the whole, is a cruel and for the foreseeable future, unnecessary process.

It won't make a scrap of difference...breeders don't care, people breeding in their back gardens don't care, people who buy baby rabbits don't care. You really think that if PAH stop selling rabbits then everyone's going to decide that it's cruel and no ones going to breed rabbits any more or buy them? So I suppose since PAH stopped selling muesli the other pet shops followed suit and now everyone gives their rabbits pellets?

 

[ashbunny]

It won't make a scrap of difference...breeders don't care, people breeding in their back gardens don't care, people who buy baby rabbits don't care. You really think that if PAH stop selling rabbits then everyone's going to decide that it's cruel and no ones going to breed rabbits any more or buy them? So I suppose since PAH stopped selling muesli the other pet shops followed suit and now everyone gives their rabbits pellets?

No but people will have to make a little more effort if they decide to have rabbits and can't just walk into their nearest pet store on their next free Saturday afternoon. Yes, some of them may go to backyard breeders. Others might think "well, I'm sure there's lot of bunnies down xxx rescue centre that need a home".

PAH are a huge supplier of pet animals and pet products in the UK now, it's a household name and often there aren't any other pet shops in towns because they've gone out of business. So you can't deny that the decisions they make do influence customers hugely.

 

[DwarfBuns]

No but people will have to make a little more effort if they decide to have rabbits and can't just walk into their nearest pet store on their next free Saturday afternoon. Yes, some of them may go to backyard breeders. Others might think "well, I'm sure there's lot of bunnies down xxx rescue centre that need a home".

PAH are a huge supplier of pet animals and pet products in the UK now, it's a household name and often there aren't any other pet shops in towns because they've gone out of business. So you can't deny that the decisions they make do influence customers hugely.

I can see where you're going with this train of thought.. I've seen it with kittens. Unfortunately, before I knew any better, my kitten was from a pet shop around 13 years ago. It seemed perfectly normal to get a kitten from there. Since then, things have changed and my Mum, who recently got a new kitten, went to the RSPCA, rather than looking through newspapers and sites such as Gumtree for a new one.

I would rather PaH stop selling animals. They really aren't equipped to sell most of them. I've worked there, I hated it. The training is minimal & most of the emphasis is on stock, rather than the care of the pets. My Daphne was a PaH adoption bunny, she came in as 'stock' & was about to be sold before a colleague realised she had awful teeth during a health check. She spent months with us, every week having her teeth clipped, only for them to grow back twice as quick. Getting her to a Vet was a nightmare because the managers would always say it wasn't that bad really (Her teeth were touching the opposite gums!!). Eventually her front teeth were removed & she was put on SA. I adopted her. She had special requirements and so many people would have come into our store & seen a cute little bunny & not really given much thought to her long term requirements. Especially as she was already a dental bun, the colleagues wouldn't have told the customers what that really meant for her.

It happens all the time. I wish they would do home checks, I hate that their cages are so small & that although I refused many sales because I didn't agree with cage sizes that customers would choose.. Whenever managers heard about this, they would have a go & tell me that I had to complete the sale. It was rotten.

I honestly wish I'd taken photos while I was there. It's an awful environment for any animal to be in.

 

[Lady Logamorph]

I can see where you're going with this train of thought.. I've seen it with kittens. Unfortunately, before I knew any better, my kitten was from a pet shop around 13 years ago. It seemed perfectly normal to get a kitten from there. Since then, things have changed and my Mum, who recently got a new kitten, went to the RSPCA, rather than looking through newspapers and sites such as Gumtree for a new one.

I still see lots of people getting puppies and kittens from people or breeders I still don't think people are in the mindset of going to a rescue for them. Out of all the people I know I would say as little as 5-10% of them have got their dogs/cats from rescues. It's really dis heartening I get really upset that people fund the breeders and then healthy dogs are PTS around 2 an hour in the UK by councils then people are breeding more. I read some stats the other day and they have estimated around half of all staffies don't reach adulthood yet people still breed them. I don't think cats and dogs not being in pet shops has changed the problem of them being in rescues in fact if you look at the stats it has got worse and worse year by year.

I would rather PaH stop selling animals. They really aren't equipped to sell most of them. I've worked there, I hated it. The training is minimal & most of the emphasis is on stock, rather than the care of the pets. My Daphne was a PaH adoption bunny, she came in as 'stock' & was about to be sold before a colleague realised she had awful teeth during a health check. She spent months with us, every week having her teeth clipped, only for them to grow back twice as quick. Getting her to a Vet was a nightmare because the managers would always say it wasn't that bad really (Her teeth were touching the opposite gums!!). Eventually her front teeth were removed & she was put on SA. I adopted her. She had special requirements and so many people would have come into our store & seen a cute little bunny & not really given much thought to her long term requirements. Especially as she was already a dental bun, the colleagues wouldn't have told the customers what that really meant for her.

I think things need to improve but I don't see how they are any less equipped than small pet shops breeders.

It happens all the time. I wish they would do home checks, I hate that their cages are so small & that although I refused many sales because I didn't agree with cage sizes that customers would choose.. Whenever managers heard about this, they would have a go & tell me that I had to complete the sale. It was rotten.

I agree I would like to see home checks as well.

I honestly wish I'd taken photos while I was there. It's an awful environment for any animal to be in.