2 males fighting please help!!

[zarapop]

hi.
i have 2 male rabbits we got them at 12 weeks old, they were snuggled together grooming and settled when we bought them and have been that way till we got them altered,because there was some mounting and fur pulling, we had put this down to sexual frustration and dominance on one rabbits part.
3 weeks after this op,the bullying had stopped completely. but then 2 fights broke out on the same day. one that i missed and when i found them they were back to snuggling and grooming again, so i left them thinking it was fine, 3 hours later they went hell for leather again and have been in seperate enclosures since, this was just over a week ago. they seem really sad being seperated, lonely almost.
ive just ordered a big chicken coop syle rabbit palace!that will be here in a couple of weeks. i have had them together in my lounge on neutral territory for social time twice so far. in the hope they will be able to live together again. so far there has been lots of circling, sniffing, grooming, skipping about, i feel its going well. but im worried they will fight again if they are housed together. i was hoping that a larger living space may help them be happy together.
are there any tips you can give me to help the process? do you think im wasting my time or that there seems like there is some potential? im new to bunnies. these 2 are my first, the sites ive read up on, dont seem to answer exactly the question for my rabbits circumstances. please help!!! xx

and as ive not actually seen a fight break out, what are the tell tale signs i should be looking for??

 

[Pebblesetc]

I would separate them until you have time to bond them properly. If they are fighting and are left together they may remember their fights and not bond in the future. By separate I mean two different set ups preferably as far from each other as you can make it. If they can smell each other they'll get angry and frustrated.

2 bucks is a difficult bond traditionally so i would suggest finding someone experienced to help you.
The last thing you want to do is give them more space. When bonding you should start with a very small space and gradually increase.

Is there a chance you could manage 2 more buns and get 2 does from a rescue to bond with the boys and have two pairs?

 

[MichG]

See my response to your other thread.

Watch for one of them lifting their tail, when a rabbit is about to attack their tail will go up - you can't miss it, however this is normally only a split second before they attack.

 

[zarapop]

See my response to your other thread.

Watch for one of them lifting their tail, when a rabbit is about to attack their tail will go up - you can't miss it, however this is normally only a split second before they attack.

thanks for your advice. dya know i thought we were doing so well. we have had them in the lounge a few times now and alls been great, they have been in seperate hutches all the other time, tonight we have had them in the garden,with us, and gave them free reign. they seemed to absolutley love it, ive never seen em bounce about so much! it was fab! then all of a sudden for no apparent reason, they kicked off again. split em up. then 5 mins later they were at it again. so disapointed!
im confused coz they differ so much between cuddling and grooming each other, then fighting.
i hadnt actually concidered getting 2 females to bond them with. part of me thinks its a good idea then part of me is totally daunted that they may not suit either then we will end up with 4 rabbits seperated , i just dont have the room to accomodate that and i really dont like the thought of giving them away.
its not really a well known fact how difficult rabbits can be.
like i said its all new to me.the pet shop didnt tell us anything except advice on feed. and that they would be ok if they are neutred. despite us asking. its a shame they are aloud to do that. we would have definatly got a male and female if we had known. but we chose these 2 coz they already seemed really close. and now it seems like a different problem every day, and to top it off they both hate being handled. not quite the pets i expected i must admit. i love em to bits but its so hard to know what to do for the best. i want them to have a nice life.
if they remained on their own seperated wont they be lonely?

 

[VickiP]

thanks for your advice. dya know i thought we were doing so well. we have had them in the lounge a few times now and alls been great, they have been in seperate hutches all the other time, tonight we have had them in the garden,with us, and gave them free reign. they seemed to absolutley love it, ive never seen em bounce about so much! it was fab! then all of a sudden for no apparent reason, they kicked off again. split em up. then 5 mins later they were at it again. so disapointed!
im confused coz they differ so much between cuddling and grooming each other, then fighting.
i hadnt actually concidered getting 2 females to bond them with. part of me thinks its a good idea then part of me is totally daunted that they may not suit either then we will end up with 4 rabbits seperated , i just dont have the room to accomodate that and i really dont like the thought of giving them away.
its not really a well known fact how difficult rabbits can be.
like i said its all new to me.the pet shop didnt tell us anything except advice on feed. and that they would be ok if they are neutred. despite us asking. its a shame they are aloud to do that. we would have definatly got a male and female if we had known. but we chose these 2 coz they already seemed really close. and now it seems like a different problem every day, and to top it off they both hate being handled. not quite the pets i expected i must admit. i love em to bits but its so hard to know what to do for the best. i want them to have a nice life.
if they remained on their own seperated wont they be lonely?

Awww sadly this is all part of the problem with the 'churn em out', 'don't worry about the consequences attitude' a lot of pet shops have regarding rabbits, you have been misinformed, there is a good chance that siblings will stay bonded but equally as much of a chance they'll fight, regardless of neutering they are still adolescent bucks and will still have hormones although not as many they don't completely disappear. Do you mind me asking how big their current hutch is and how long they are confined to it? I suggest that you have a good chance of re-bonding them but you will have to treat it as a 'new' bond which means housing them side by side for now, don't let them run around the garden together this needs to be done separately and beware of nose nipping if they can access the other one in the hutch, ideally a run each on the grass side by side would be better.

You need to start slowly and swap litter trays or indeed swap them into each others accomodation to familiarise with the scent for a couple of weeks, then bond in the lounge, in a puppy pen or rabbit playpen, use a tarpaulin or lino underneath and cover with newspaper and hay, put them in together and ensure you distract with scattering food in the hay and herbs like dill or flat leaf parsley feed wet for fluids /veg/dandelions/ etc have a water spray and if you see the tail go up or a fight starts I'd go with a quick spray (ideally use an evian bottle of mineral water with the sport cap) it seems brutal but it doesn't hurt them and they will instinctively groom themselves and get fluids anyway. You can also intervene wearing thick gloves and hold them gently apart for a short while to calm down, stroke them and talk to them and then release them if they go straight in again repeat several times, if it really is a case of diving at each other then I'd have a time out and try in an hour again following the procedure. As long as they remain eating and drinking and not stressing or hurting each other, your looking for them to be relaxed and watching each other but not diving at each other, a little chasing and or nipping is normal and fur can fly without injuring but pouncing and pressing the other down while biting is bad and the water spray is better than pulling one off the other as they will release grip.

It's a long process if there's been fighting but it can be done, you need to remain calm and you'll most definately need to keep them confined for a minimum of 3 days I'd say, you want to see mutual grooming, eating together, relaxed in each others company almost ignoring is better than fighting. Your other option is to contact a rescue and send the boys off to be bonded initially to a pair of doe's as 'couples' then to a quad, they would want to home check and the chicken coop may not be big enough without a run attached for a quad.

It's a shame you've been let down but your not the first and won't be the last, your other option is maybe to contact a rescue and see if you can swap a male for a doe? Hard as it is, it might be the most practical way forward, same sex bonds can be tricky it really depends on age and temperament.

Fingers crossed for you there are lots of rescues on here who will offer advice I'm sure.:wave:

 

[zarapop]

Awww sadly this is all part of the problem with the 'churn em out', 'don't worry about the consequences attitude' a lot of pet shops have regarding rabbits, you have been misinformed, there is a good chance that siblings will stay bonded but equally as much of a chance they'll fight, regardless of neutering they are still adolescent bucks and will still have hormones although not as many they don't completely disappear. Do you mind me asking how big their current hutch is and how long they are confined to it? I suggest that you have a good chance of re-bonding them but you will have to treat it as a 'new' bond which means housing them side by side for now, don't let them run around the garden together this needs to be done separately and beware of nose nipping if they can access the other one in the hutch, ideally a run each on the grass side by side would be better.

You need to start slowly and swap litter trays or indeed swap them into each others accomodation to familiarise with the scent for a couple of weeks, then bond in the lounge, in a puppy pen or rabbit playpen, use a tarpaulin or lino underneath and cover with newspaper and hay, put them in together and ensure you distract with scattering food in the hay and herbs like dill or flat leaf parsley feed wet for fluids /veg/dandelions/ etc have a water spray and if you see the tail go up or a fight starts I'd go with a quick spray (ideally use an evian bottle of mineral water with the sport cap) it seems brutal but it doesn't hurt them and they will instinctively groom themselves and get fluids anyway. You can also intervene wearing thick gloves and hold them gently apart for a short while to calm down, stroke them and talk to them and then release them if they go straight in again repeat several times, if it really is a case of diving at each other then I'd have a time out and try in an hour again following the procedure. As long as they remain eating and drinking and not stressing or hurting each other, your looking for them to be relaxed and watching each other but not diving at each other, a little chasing and or nipping is normal and fur can fly without injuring but pouncing and pressing the other down while biting is bad and the water spray is better than pulling one off the other as they will release grip.

It's a long process if there's been fighting but it can be done, you need to remain calm and you'll most definately need to keep them confined for a minimum of 3 days I'd say, you want to see mutual grooming, eating together, relaxed in each others company almost ignoring is better than fighting. Your other option is to contact a rescue and send the boys off to be bonded initially to a pair of doe's as 'couples' then to a quad, they would want to home check and the chicken coop may not be big enough without a run attached for a quad.

It's a shame you've been let down but your not the first and won't be the last, your other option is maybe to contact a rescue and see if you can swap a male for a doe? Hard as it is, it might be the most practical way forward, same sex bonds can be tricky it really depends on age and temperament.

Fingers crossed for you there are lots of rescues on here who will offer advice I'm sure.:wave:

it sounds like im pretty much on the right line. we have a 2 story hutch its a decent size but not massive, and a square run prob about 5ft by5ft, thats not attached, they were spending around a good 3 hours a day in the run some days more, dependant on the weather. they have always groomed cuddled and been relaxed with each other even tho there was some mounting before they were altered. the mounting has stopped now but the full blown fighting has started. until the new hutch arives which is 7 ft by 3ft and 4ft4 high we also intended to add what we already have to it. until then, one rabbit is in the hutch and one in the run, which we have made more weatherproof and added a bed. i have been swopping their living space regularly and they can see each other the cages are about a foot apart. they look really sad when they are not together. and they been spending about an hour or so a day letting them meet in the lounge where everything seemed to be going great, even today in the garden they loved it. before the fight broke out. they both got hurt after the first fight the other week, lots of cuts all over it was upsetting,they both still have the scabs. so im really weary they would really hurt each other if i leave them unsupervised in the future.
aso you can send them away to bond with does can you? i didnt know that

 

[Amy104]

How long ago were they neutered?

How bad are the fights? Is it just chasing, fur pulling are are they locking on to each other?

Sorry for all the questions, I have two pairs of boys (one related, one non related) and whilst they are a lot more tricky they can sometimes work.

 

[zarapop]

How long ago were they neutered?

How bad are the fights? Is it just chasing, fur pulling are are they locking on to each other?

Sorry for all the questions, I have two pairs of boys (one related, one non related) and whilst they are a lot more tricky they can sometimes work.

hiya
the fights i have witnessed have been chasing circling and rolling around scraping with fur flying we split em up straight away with a broom, im not sure how long it would last or how bad it would get if we hadnt, the fight we didnt see happen (the first one) happened in the hutch, when we found them they were snuggled up and grooming each other but both were covered in cuts and scratches, another broke out 3 hours later. but i caught that one in its early stages we split them at that point and they have lived seperaately since.
im gonna keep trying them having social time together coz at times it seems to be going great. but when they scrap do you think i should just keep splitting them up rather than putting them straight back in their seperate cages right away?

 

[zarapop]

How long ago were they neutered?

How bad are the fights? Is it just chasing, fur pulling are are they locking on to each other?

Sorry for all the questions, I have two pairs of boys (one related, one non related) and whilst they are a lot more tricky they can sometimes work.

can i also ask i am interested in sending them off to be bonded to females then to be bonded as a quad perhaps if not a quad at least i can have 2 pairs then. but how do i go about this, and is it costly?

 

[Joanne Jenkinson]

Sorry I have no good advice as I don't have any experience with bonding but just to say I have two boys and they are brothers and are neutered. They haven't scrapped like you describe, there was a small tussle before they were neutered with fur being pulled out. Now they are neutered they do still mount each other and chase each other but it doesn't seem to be aggressive, they lick each other after they are done. Although I am very aware that with two boys it could so easily turn sour, so I do keep an eye on them. I try to give them as much space as possible, they live in a 6 x 4 shed with a 6 x 4 run and have at least a couple of hours supervised free range in the garden each day. It can work as others have said but if the fighting is as bad as you say then it may be a lot of work to bond them, it might be easier to get them a female each.

Sorry I can't help at all! Hope someone else comes along to help soon!

 

[Amy104]

Ok rolling around doesn't sound great.

If it was me I'd try to go back to basics, very small neutral space, monitored closely. If they go at each other break it up but don't split them straight away and see if they are insitant on attacking each other.

I don't like to force bonds and it may well be they are better off with new partners but I'd probably give it one last try.

You didn't say how long they've been neutered?

 

[zarapop]

Ok rolling around doesn't sound great.

If it was me I'd try to go back to basics, very small neutral space, monitored closely. If they go at each other break it up but don't split them straight away and see if they are insitant on attacking each other.

I don't like to force bonds and it may well be they are better off with new partners but I'd probably give it one last try.

You didn't say how long they've been neutered?

sorry, i forgot its been about 4 weeks,since they were neutered, we kept them indoors for about 2 weeks after. ive just done half hour outside with em, they were a little weary of each other but no probs at all this time lots of sniffs and skipping about!!! and ive swopped their living space around again now, they seem settled today. i dont wanna force them together its just they seemed so bonded from the start, il prob do another half hour later when the hubby comes home from work.
if you know anything about sending them away to be bonded to females, or even as a quad. like where does that and is it costly?, that would be great, i like that idea.

 

[zarapop]

sorry, i forgot its been about 4 weeks,since they were neutered, we kept them indoors for about 2 weeks after. ive just done half hour outside with em, they were a little weary of each other but no probs at all this time lots of sniffs and skipping about!!! and ive swopped their living space around again now, they seem settled today. i dont wanna force them together its just they seemed so bonded from the start, il prob do another half hour later when the hubby comes home from work.
if you know anything about sending them away to be bonded to females, or even as a quad. like where does that and is it costly?, that would be great, i like that idea.

AND.... deflated once again! we have just had numerous attacks, water doesnt work at all with these 2 ! split em up each time with the broom which they also attacked. they are both instigating the fighting, so fed up with it now, they seem to hate each other , and they were so close before its a real shame. they also seem to hate me too they never really took to me, id get the occasional nudge or kiss before but they just stay out my way completely now. they are like different rabbits. i think its a lost cause trying to re bond them together.
are rabbits ever content caged on their own? or do they need a cage mate? and will they ever take to me?

 

[janice]

If your boys are very young and have only been neutered for 4 weeks I woudl suggest leaving them well apart for at least another 2 weeks, ideally longer to allow their hormones to settle. I would suggest if possible keep them out of each others sight and also smell and let them settle, I would not advise swapping them over as it may then make them more stressed when they are beeing put together as the other is trespassing on their territory.

I would suggest 2 options if you want to give it a go at rebonding them together, one is to send them out to someone experienced in bonding or to a rescue or to tray and bond them together yourself ensuring that you keep to all the rules of bonding. http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?t=262676&highlight=hour Have a look at this thread and find two posts I have made on this, ignoring that it is about bonding a trio, bonding 2 males is exactly the same and you need to leave a similiar amount of time.

If this does not work, 2 pairs are an option or a foursome. Some rescues will help you with the bonding for this. Many rescues will just ask for a donation to help support what they are doing.

 

[janice]

AND.... deflated once again! we have just had numerous attacks, water doesnt work at all with these 2 ! split em up each time with the broom which they also attacked. they are both instigating the fighting, so fed up with it now, they seem to hate each other , and they were so close before its a real shame. they also seem to hate me too they never really took to me, id get the occasional nudge or kiss before but they just stay out my way completely now. they are like different rabbits. i think its a lost cause trying to re bond them together.
are rabbits ever content caged on their own? or do they need a cage mate? and will they ever take to me?

Dont give up you have two hormonal buns who need to be allowed to lower their testosterone levels before being tried together, I would give it 2 - 4 weeks before allowing them to see or smell each other again. .

 

[zarapop]

Dont give up you have two hormonal buns who need to be allowed to lower their testosterone levels before being tried together, I would give it 2 - 4 weeks before allowing them to see or smell each other again. .

aw!! thanks so much every one for your advise. il give them a rest for the time being and try again in a couple of weeks , they obviously are not ready right now, but at least i tried!! this is the first time ive joined a forum for anything, ive found you all really supportive and its been very re assuring and helpful THANKYOU!
i cant believe pet shops dont bother giving you the right advise, im just glad i havnt got children id bought them for it would be even more upsetting. and my 2 certainly wouldnt have been the best pets for kids! i feel sorry for all the families and bunnies who have to go through this unnessasarily, its a shame! i certainly didnt percieve it all to be this difficult i must admit!

 

[Roseberry]

i had 2 bucks together, i never saw a full blown fight until one day i came down to find the hutch sprayed with blood and also my dutch bunny! LUCKILY ot turned out to only be a small nick on his ear but it got a vein, it could have been much worse.

This happened because the duthc rabbit was dominant over the lop, so would hump him, (a lot) until the lop got fed up then would chase him away, mostly just chase but i guess he eventually caught him. it wasnt that he wanted to fight, he just didnt want to be humped and got ****** off. by this time he was significantly larger than the dutch. it was all because i waited too long to get them neutered.

 

[Amy104]

Dont give up you have two hormonal buns who need to be allowed to lower their testosterone levels before being tried together, I would give it 2 - 4 weeks before allowing them to see or smell each other again.

Totally agree - sorry this was why I asked, I should've waited for you to answer before I suggested trying them again.

Also I don't like the water thing. IMO it stresses the buns out and is more of a hinderance than a help.