**UPDATE***Cleo's fluctuating weight; Now ear issues

[lauraj27]

Hi there,

It's been a while since I posted.

Last August Cleo's back legs seemed to seize up, almost as if she was paralysed and we feared the worst. Off she went to the vet and it actually turned out to be arthritis and she was put on 0.5ml of Metacam twice a day.

This did seem to help her, but she has slowed down quite a lot and can no longer scamper up the ramp in her run and cage, so to try and ensure she still had a enough space, we bunny proofed one of the rooms in the house.

Today we noticed that she was feeling quite thin and she seemed a little subdued, even though she has been eating her normal amount of pellets and large quantities of hay. Cleo is 13 years old.

So we went off to the vet, who agreed she felt thin. Cleo was weighed and she was 1.37kg; in August last year she was 1.6Kg so she has lost about 300g in weight.

Given that Cleo is still eating everything as normal but has lost weight, the vet has suggested that it could be a tumour or possibly liver/kidney disease. The vet has said that we could do blood tests and a scan, however, none of us the vet included want to poke and prod her so we have agreed to keep her as comfortable as possible

The vet has prescribed Buprenorphine - 0.08ml twice a day as an additional painkiller on top of the metacam and have advised us to give her unlimited pellets and hay (she currently gets 40g of Burgess excel pellets a day).

I was just wondering if there is anything else we could give Cleo to help her try and put on a little more weight.

We do have a set of baby scales so we will be checking her weight ourselves regulalry

 

[KCG]

First of all, I am very sorry to hear about the disease, I have no knowledge about it and I cannot give much advice. But I'm sure many people on the forum will give better advice. But I recommend oat hay for losing weight because it is high in calories. It may be wise to turn to such high-calorie hay and add it to the diet. I hope Cleo recovers quickly 🩷

 

[InspectorMorse]

Given her age and the fact that she has been on Meloxicam for some time her renal function is probably not great now, hence the unexplained weight loss. Also, arthritic Rabbits can lose muscle mass as they can be less active. Muscle weighs more than fat. Chronic renal failure also causes loss of muscle mass.

Did the Vet warn you that buprenorphine can cause marked sedation, it’s an opiate? Also, if renal function is compromised the risk of the drug accumulating in the bloodstream is greater and this will cause even more sedation.

If renal function is compromised then the use of NSAIDs such as Meloxicam must be done with extreme caution, the dose usually needs to be lower. NSAIDs are generally contraindicated with cases of renal impairment. But the Vet will base prescribing on a risks v benefits basis. The inflammation caused by arthritis needs to be controlled to allow the rabbit some QOL.

With her diet I would go very easy on introducing unlimiteds pellets. It’s likely she will end up with excess cecotrophs and a mucky bum. So I would only increase her amount in small increments. Burgess Excel is known to cause more excess cecotroph problems than other brands. So if she does have excess cecotrophs then you could try gradually changing her over to a different brand.

As with any dietary change, everything must be done slowly to minimise the risk of causing a GI tract upset.

Alfalfa hay is more calorific than other hay types. So you could feed a small amount of that but not too much as it’s also high in calcium. Too much calcium can cause issues with bladder sludge. Especially in less mobile Rabbits.

Readigrass is also high in calories so a small amount of that could be given. But again not too much. It’s high in protein and dietary protein needs to be moderated if renal functions is impaired. And as with too many carbs, too much protein can cause excess cecotrophs.

Some Rabbits can cope with a very small amount of whole porridge oats. If fed dry then the amount really must be very small as it will swell up in the stomach and this can cause bloat. It is high in carbs and so it might cause excess cecotrophs too.

A prebiotic might help the absorption of dietary nutrients. Although there’s only anecdotal evidence of this. There are a few prebiotic/probiotic supplements available. I use this one

Vetark Pro-C Probiotic Professional

Buy Vetark Pro-C Probiotic Professional for your Small Animals from VioVet, FREE DELIVERY available over £35. Great prices and super easy to use website, see for yourself now.

www.viovet.co.uk

In cases of chronic renal failure a long acting ANABOLIC steroid (NOT a corticosteroid) injection can help reduce loss of muscle mass and increase the appetite.

Giving an ACE inhibitor medication such as benazepril can help support renal function

Vitamin B12 injections might be useful too.

Is Cleo having any complimentary treatment for her arthritis. Acupuncture, laser therapy, physiotherapy and massage can all be beneficial alongside conventional medication.

Some links that you might find helpful to take a look at:

Laser Therapy | Center for Bird and Exotic Animal Medicine

www.theexoticvet.com

Helping Hands Veterinary Physiotherapy | Rabbits

www.helpinghandsvetphysio.co.uk

Veterinary acupuncture - Fitzpatrick Referrals

Acupuncture has gained increasing recognition as a useful adjunct to modern medicine in animals as well as humans. Under UK law, animal acupuncture may only be administered by appropriately qualified veterinary surgeons.

www.fitzpatrickreferrals.co.uk

Sherwood Pet Health - Joint Support For Small Pets - Just4Rabbits

Sherwood Pet Health Joint Support enhances small herbivores’ recovery from common mobility issues by reducing inflammation to aid joint health.

just4rabbits.uk

Oxbow Natural Science Joint Support for Small Animals

Oxbow Natural Science Joint Support for Small Animals is available online with fast delivery from VioVet, the trusted supplier of veterinary medication, foods and animal care products.

www.viovet.co.uk

 

[bunny momma]

IM gave you the best advice. Sending Cleo lots of positive vibes.

 

[lauraj27]

Given her age and the fact that she has been on Meloxicam for some time her renal function is probably not great now, hence the unexplained weight loss. Also, arthritic Rabbits can lose muscle mass as they can be less active. Muscle weighs more than fat. Chronic renal failure also causes loss of muscle mass.

Did the Vet warn you that buprenorphine can cause marked sedation, it’s an opiate? Also, if renal function is compromised the risk of the drug accumulating in the bloodstream is greater and this will cause even more sedation.

If renal function is compromised then the use of NSAIDs such as Meloxicam must be done with extreme caution, the dose usually needs to be lower. NSAIDs are generally contraindicated with cases of renal impairment. But the Vet will base prescribing on a risks v benefits basis. The inflammation caused by arthritis needs to be controlled to allow the rabbit some QOL.

With her diet I would go very easy on introducing unlimiteds pellets. It’s likely she will end up with excess cecotrophs and a mucky bum. So I would only increase her amount in small increments. Burgess Excel is known to cause more excess cecotroph problems than other brands. So if she does have excess cecotrophs then you could try gradually changing her over to a different brand.

As with any dietary change, everything must be done slowly to minimise the risk of causing a GI tract upset.

Alfalfa hay is more calorific than other hay types. So you could feed a small amount of that but not too much as it’s also high in calcium. Too much calcium can cause issues with bladder sludge. Especially in less mobile Rabbits.

Readigrass is also high in calories so a small amount of that could be given. But again not too much. It’s high in protein and dietary protein needs to be moderated if renal functions is impaired. And as with too many carbs, too much protein can cause excess cecotrophs.

Some Rabbits can cope with a very small amount of whole porridge oats. If fed dry then the amount really must be very small as it will swell up in the stomach and this can cause bloat. It is high in carbs and so it might cause excess cecotrophs too.

A prebiotic might help the absorption of dietary nutrients. Although there’s only anecdotal evidence of this. There are a few prebiotic/probiotic supplements available. I use this one

Vetark Pro-C Probiotic Professional

Buy Vetark Pro-C Probiotic Professional for your Small Animals from VioVet, FREE DELIVERY available over £35. Great prices and super easy to use website, see for yourself now.

www.viovet.co.uk

In cases of chronic renal failure a long acting ANABOLIC steroid (NOT a corticosteroid) injection can help reduce loss of muscle mass and increase the appetite.

Giving an ACE inhibitor medication such as benazepril can help support renal function

Vitamin B12 injections might be useful too.

Is Cleo having any complimentary treatment for her arthritis. Acupuncture, laser therapy, physiotherapy and massage can all be beneficial alongside conventional medication.

Some links that you might find helpful to take a look at:

Laser Therapy | Center for Bird and Exotic Animal Medicine

www.theexoticvet.com

Helping Hands Veterinary Physiotherapy | Rabbits

www.helpinghandsvetphysio.co.uk

Veterinary acupuncture - Fitzpatrick Referrals

Acupuncture has gained increasing recognition as a useful adjunct to modern medicine in animals as well as humans. Under UK law, animal acupuncture may only be administered by appropriately qualified veterinary surgeons.

www.fitzpatrickreferrals.co.uk

Sherwood Pet Health - Joint Support For Small Pets - Just4Rabbits

Sherwood Pet Health Joint Support enhances small herbivores’ recovery from common mobility issues by reducing inflammation to aid joint health.

just4rabbits.uk

Oxbow Natural Science Joint Support for Small Animals

Oxbow Natural Science Joint Support for Small Animals is available online with fast delivery from VioVet, the trusted supplier of veterinary medication, foods and animal care products.

www.viovet.co.uk

Thank you so much for the comprehensive advice.

We were aware that one of the side effects of the metacam could cause kidney issues; there have however been no other signs - she's drinking the same amount and her urine output is normal.

The vet did warn us that the additional medication was an opiate and they have only given us enough for 14 days to see how she gets on with it; one of our other rabbits developed arthritis and towards the end he was on a low dose of tramadol.

We know that we are likely getting to the end with her and we want to ensure that she does have a good quality of life for whatever time she has left; we genuinely thought yesterday when we took her to the vet we wouldn't be coming home with her.

We did think the muscle mass was contributing to the weight loss as she isn't as mobile as she used to be, however, she does move around and is keeping herself clean.

You've hit the nail on the head with my concerns about unlimited pellets, alfafa and readigrass - we had guinea pigs many years ago who developed bladder sludge/bladder stones even though they didn't have alfafa or readigrass. Again plenty of hay and burgess guinea pig nuggets.

As for the pellets, she normally gets 40g in the evening at about 10pm (the rest of the day she's munching on hay constantly); yesterday however, we got back from the vet at about 6pm so we gave her 20g then, another 20g at 9pm and another 20g at 11:30pm.

At 730am this morning she had 20g pellets, and I've just given her another 20g; she's had about half of the latest 20g so will leave it until this afternoon and then probably give her 10g. So far no sign of excess cecotrophs but we are keeping a close eye.

She is on the oxbow joint supplements but hasn't had any physiotherapy or acunpuncture so we will certainly look into this along with all of the other recommendations.

We don't want to put her through any tests as we don't want her to be stressed out and we especially don't want her to go under an anaesthetic and even if a blood test reveals kidney/liver disease or a tumour there isn't much that can be done to treat it; other than the ACE inhibitor and vitamin B12 injections that have been suggested.

We are grateful for every extra day we get with her, although, I am anxious/stressed about losing her as we have had her for the whole 13 years.

 

[lauraj27]

We weighed Cleo yesterday and she is now 1.5kg so in the space of a week she has gained 130g.

She has been having about 90-100g of Burgess Excel nuggets each day, but we spread out when she gets it rather than just giving her that amount in one go. So for example in the morning she will get the 30g, mid afternoon 30g, evening 30g and then overnight another 30-40g.

We have also been giving her small bits of kale twice a day as it is her favourite and makes up for us giving her meds by shoving syringes in her mouth.

 

[InspectorMorse]

We weighed Cleo yesterday and she is now 1.5kg so in the space of a week she has gained 130g.

She has been having about 90-100g of Burgess Excel nuggets each day, but we spread out when she gets it rather than just giving her that amount in one go. So for example in the morning she will get the 30g, mid afternoon 30g, evening 30g and then overnight another 30-40g.

We have also been giving her small bits of kale twice a day as it is her favourite and makes up for us giving her meds by shoving syringes in her mouth.

That’s good news

 

[lauraj27]

Just another update.

Weighed Cleo today and she is now 1.57kg and is definitely feeling a lot chunkier!

We have reduced the nuggets down to 70g-80g a day (still spread out over the course of the day) as she wasn't quite finishing off all the nuggets we were giving her. She was still eating a large proportion of them as well as hay and kale but we wonder whether she felt as though she was starving so was wolfing down the extra nuggets but now feels as though she doesn't need to as she's feeling fuller and is getting back to a better weight.

 

[Omi]

Just another update.

Weighed Cleo today and she is now 1.57kg and is definitely feeling a lot chunkier!

We have reduced the nuggets down to 70g-80g a day (still spread out over the course of the day) as she wasn't quite finishing off all the nuggets we were giving her. She was still eating a large proportion of them as well as hay and kale but we wonder whether she felt as though she was starving so was wolfing down the extra nuggets but now feels as though she doesn't need to as she's feeling fuller and is getting back to a better weight.

So pleased that she's doing so well

 

[lauraj27]

So I have been weighing Cleo semi-regularly at home using a set of baby scales.

When she first went to the vet a few weeks ago she was 1.37kg, a week later she was 1.5kg and then last Wednesday she was 1.57kg.

Over the weekend I weighed her and she was 1.52kg. I weighed her again today and she was 1.44kg.

She's still on about 70g-80g nuggets a day, though she isn't eating them as quickly as a few weeks ago, however, she's constantly eating hay and small pieces of kale twice a day when she gets her meds.

She's drinking the usual amount and there are no issues with her urination or poo output - it's all normal. She is also her normal self.

I just don't know what to do - we don't want to put her through stressful procedures of blood tests or scans (especially the latter because of the GA) and I don't know whether knowing what's wrong (cancer, liver/kidney disease) is better or whether not knowing is better.

I do have critical care and I wonder if mixing some up and putting it in a bowl might help?

I know the forum isn't a substitute for a rabbit savvy vet but I'm just struggling this evening.

I can't talk to OH as they are in really bad state with their mental health.

 

[InspectorMorse]

Sorry for bullet point post

Introduce with care but try adding:

Readigrass

Readigrass

Readigrass from Friendship Estates, is a highly palatable feed containing only British grown grass without the inclusion of additives or preservatives. This product is carefully prepared to allow small animals to benefit from the goodness of natural grass all year round. The high feed value of...

wildaboutbunnies.co.uk

Barley Rings

Barley Rings

We haven't yet met a bun that doesn't go mad for barley rings! These are the perfect boredom buster for many small animals including rabbits, guinea pigs, gerbils, hamsters and chinchillas Feed on their own, make toys with them - whatever way you choose to feed them your pet will love them...

luxurybunnybakery.co.uk

Alfalfa Hay

Alfalfa Hay

A new addition to Little Hay Co. Alfalfa is a legume (similar to clover) which makes it slightly different to a traditional hay as it is a lot more leafy with a mix of crunchy strands. Alfalfa is high in calcium and protein to support healthy growth and development. It is best suited to young...

littlehayco.com

Emeraid Sustain

Emeraid Herbivore Sustain

EmerAid Sustain Herbivore:, a scientific diet for herbivores in recovery from illness, chronic conditions, or underweight.

hyperdrug.co.uk

Pro C Professional

Pro-c professional

Prebiotic and probiotic with vitamin C and glucose for rabbits and small mammals.

www.vetark.co.uk

Watch out for uneaten cecals and/or chalky/sludgy wee (due to high calcium content in alfalfa)

 

[lauraj27]

Thank you for your reply.

Vet wants to see her before giving her any more Buprenorphine as apparently rabbits can be become immune to it and doing a google search, it does seem that the medication can also slow the appetite, which may explain the fluctuating weight.

Our previous bunny Sparky was put on a low dose of Tramodol with his arthritis along with metacam and think I may be more comfortable with this combination.

 

[InspectorMorse]

Thank you for your reply.

Vet wants to see her before giving her any more Buprenorphine as apparently rabbits can be become immune to it and doing a google search, it does seem that the medication can also slow the appetite, which may explain the fluctuating weight.

Our previous bunny Sparky was put on a low dose of Tramodol with his arthritis along with metacam and think I may be more comfortable with this combination.

i have seen good results with a combination of Metacam and Tramadol

 

[lauraj27]

So this morning I noticed that part of the tip of Cleo's ear was somewhat detached from the rest of the ear and was flapping about. We have no idea how this happened.

Managed to get an appointment with the rabbit savvy vet at our surgery. The vet was perplexed by the injury and initially said that the rest of the tip would need to be removed surgically. My heart sank and I said that I was very worried about her having a GA, given her age. The vet understood my concerns and took her out the back to see what else could be done and to get assistance from the nurses,

He came back with Cleo and said that whilst he was gently examining it, the rest of the tip came off and Cleo did not react at all; no signs of pain. He said that it was dead tissue as the blood vessel on the right did not seem to be getting blood to the tip of the ear. He said that there was no evidence that any of the other tissue in the ear was damaged/dead but we are under instructions to monitor her ears strictly.

He has applied an antibiotic cream and given us an oral antibiotic - I think it's septrin. He has told us that if we see it bleeding to use cotton buds either side of the ear and to keep it clean use salt mixed with cooled boiled water.

I think I've represented everything correctly; it is a little sad seeing her without the tip of her ear but she does seem a lot happier?

Bizarre bunnies!

 

[InspectorMorse]

Is the Vet sending the tissue that came away for biopsy ?

 

[bunny momma]

Sending vibes Cleo heals quickly.

 

[lauraj27]

Is the Vet sending the tissue that came away for biopsy ?

They didn't mention it and it didn't occur to me to ask for it to be biopsied and I suspect the tissue has now been disposed of

One day I'll get the hang of being the best bunny parent!

 

[InspectorMorse]

One day I'll get the hang of being the best bunny parent!

.26 years of trying here, still not made the grade !!

We are all on a constant learning curve, trying to do our best. Hopefully your Bunny's ear will heal up well and require no further treatment x

 

[bunny momma]

The vet can be just as stressful for us humans as it is for our bunnies.
We count on the professionals, the vets, to recommend procedures, including diagnostics when needed.
You are doing great as a bunny parent.