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Upset and angry at our vets

Jaypot

Mama Doe
For the years that we have been going to our vets they have always used the gas as an anaesthetic and have intubated the buns. We are happier with this as they always come home an hour or two later and are fine, bouncy and start to eat and drink right away.
The last vet that we used would not use gas and refused to intubate so we lost two of our precious buns :cry: :cry: :cry:
As said, for the last few years we have been really happy with the operations that have been done with the gas and intubation.

A few months ago our little tiny Hoggle needed a dental and when he came back home he was very wobbly, cold and out of it :( It took hours for him to come around properly but we thought that maybe it was due to his size - he only weighs 800g - bless him:D
A couple of weeks later our Timmy-Tickles needed a dental and he came back very woozy and out of it - he is a brain damaged bun and we put it down to that - thankfully he recovered well after a few hours.
Today, Mr Benn had to have a dental and as this is a regular thing (he has a molar that doesn't grind down), we where worried as usual but not exceptionally as Mr Benn is usually home and bouncing about with Elliot straight away. Not today :( He could hardly stand up and it took hours for him to come around properly :(

John got onto the vets and it was only then he was told that the last three times our buns have had dentals that they have had injectable aneasthetic:shock: They know not to use this on our buns as we are not happy with it - and we also found out that the buns had not been intubated:shock:

We have been in such a deep shock today and have complained to the Practice Manager who has said that she will speak to the head vet about it - she said it was a clinical decision :( I don't know if that is the truth but we are going to get to the bottom of this:censored: :censored: :censored:

It's just our preference - we know that the buns get over any ops quicker when using the gas and are intubated - we also know that due to most of our buns being elderly or disabled that we are not putting them through the discomfort of staggering around and not being able to eat for hours due to the aneasthetic.

Although it has not been our faults, we feel as though we have failed Hoggle, Timmy and Mr Benn :( :( :( If we had known that the injecions where going to be used they wouldn't have got their hands on our buns :(
 
Awwww Jay I can really understand how angry and upset you must be :cry:
I know that my Vet says that with more complex dentals its tricky to just use the Isoflurane Gas as you have to keep topping them up and that can be tricky whilst trying to access the mouth to do the dental. But if you specifically only consented to the Isoflo' I think the Vets should have contacted you if their clinical decision conflicted with your wishes.
I hope wee Elliot has perked up by now. When Old Bill had his dentals it helped his recovery to give him sub/cut Hartmanns and keep him on a heatpad overnight.
Sending lots of vibes to Elliot and love'n'snuggles to all The Hairy Mob

Janex
 
Oh Jay how upsetting for you and John :cry:

Not being a vet, but transposing my experience from little babies, (some of whom weigh even less than Hoggle - if you can believe it :shock: ), the injectable anaesthetics have a much longer half life than inhaled anaesthetic, which means that the effects stay around for much longer. You also need good breathing, kidney and liver function to get rid of any anaesthetics, and most of your buns would have some compromise in one or more of those areas, hence the diffictulty in recovering. (also why they are better intubated as you can control the breathing better),

I would put in writing your concerns, and also make sure that you reiterate that the difference in the buns recovery from the differing methods.

sending waking up vibes to Mr Benn

xxxx
 
Oh Jay how upsetting for you and John :cry:

Not being a vet, but transposing my experience from little babies, (some of whom weigh even less than Hoggle - if you can believe it :shock: ), the injectable anaesthetics have a much longer half life than inhaled anaesthetic, which means that the effects stay around for much longer. You also need good breathing, kidney and liver function to get rid of any anaesthetics, and most of your buns would have some compromise in one or more of those areas, hence the diffictulty in recovering. (also why they are better intubated as you can control the breathing better),

I would put in writing your concerns, and also make sure that you reiterate that the difference in the buns recovery from the differing methods.

sending waking up vibes to Mr Benn

xxxx

Your right about the half life. I think the drug they use is called Propofol, its a sedative (we use it at work). From what I'd read about bun anaesthetics it's not the drug of choice for most vets. But in small doses the bun can be sedated without being intubated, but getting the dose exactly right is a bit tricky I should imagine. a tiny bit too much and bun stops breathing!!

Definately a written complaint is needed,

Nicola
 
That's awful!!, Jay and John you should complain in writing, I think it is so wrong for them to make the decisions like that without even consulting you, I think that's unproffesional.

Snuggles to all the bunnies and hugs to both of you
 
Thats terrible!! You have every right to be upset but definately not feel guilty. You trusted them with your babies. Its horrible seeing a healthy bun coming round from a the GA never mind a disabled or elderly bunny. (((hugs))
 
Thanks everyone - we are still feeling so bad - I know we didn't know but that's not the point - it's up to us as the parents of the Hairy Mob to find these things out and we really feel as though we have let them down:( :(

Jane, I know that some of the dental work (especially mouth abscesses) are harder to deal with but each and every one of the buns who have needed to have ops over the years have always had Iso - and even though some major dental work has needed to be done they have managed - (mind you, it was our great Sally and Sarah who where the vets then).

These dentals where very straightforward - as I said, Mr Benn needs a regular dental for that one tooth and has never had injectable aneasthetic before:? We truly believe that it is down to cost for the practice - not the clients but the practice - and that we won't take:censored: Our buns are our lives and it's not right that they can do operations one way and then take another way without notifiying us first:censored:

We always ask the vet to run fluids through when bun has had an op and even though she had done this with Hoggle and Timmy it still didn't work properly :( We don't know if she ran fluids through with Mr Benn but will find out tomorrow.

Mr Benn is eating now which is a great relief but we are not going to let this drop. If this has all been done to save the practice money then they can stick the practice up their :censored: .

If only Sally had the funds to set up her practice sooner than the end of the year :( But at least we know that she is there if we need her so if it comes to it that the vets we use now are going to use injectable anaesthetic then we will have to find another vet soon:(

I hate seeing buns stagger around all bewildered - it breaks my heart:cry: :cry: :cry:
 
Do you know what they had? Sounds like a Ketamine reaction.
When you say injectable was it a sedative or actual a GA induction agent given IV? So the buns never normally recieve a sed and then Iso?
Its a shame your vets have deviated from your wishes, obviously you know your buns best and because you do you knew something was different, maybe they thought you wouldnt know? Maybe they have changed their protocol completely and didnt use sense to tell you/ask you? Maybe it was different vets who didnt know what you liked and noone thought to inform them?

Hope the buns recover better overnight, they are lucky to have a brill mom to look out for them x
 
I dont think Propofol can be used in bunnies!:? Its not a sedative either, its a General Anaesthetic.

I read an article somewhere talking about the use of propofol in buns.

I know what it is I use it at work, its not a general anaesthetic its used as sedation

Nicola
 
I've always been under the impression that an injectable anesthetic is better as you can measure the dose more precisely and if it needs topping up its safer as you know exactly how much the animal has already had.

Louise
 
Oh Jay that terrible xxx Sending hugs to you and the hairy mob. I just can't understand why they didn't tell you about it! My vets always ring me if they have to do something which i havn't consented to, always! I have had Hazel ring me in the middle of ops before as there has been something else to do!

Even yesterday when rex went in, morag informed me that he had had a sedative for the x-ray and his spur but they hadn't needed to give him a GA for the spur and he had had a painkiller!

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
 
That sounds awful :'(

when my bunnys were neuterd they had an injectable one, when Jazz went to have some dental work done on monday i really noticed a difference as they used gas he was eating etc the moment he came home.
 
I'm so sorry. I too know very little about anaesthetic and the pros and cons but I do agree that if you have specifically requested one type then, even if it is a "clinical decision" they have an obligation to you to get your consent rather than just go ahead without. I am apalled!! :(
 
First rule of finding a rabbit savvy vet is to look for one who uses isofluorane gas not injection - what are they thinking? :?
 
I've always been under the impression that an injectable anesthetic is better as you can measure the dose more precisely and if it needs topping up its safer as you know exactly how much the animal has already had.

Louise

It depends on the circumstances.

An example from my own experience (all be it with babies)......surgery is required for a simple procedure, lasting no more than about 20-30 mins. If the inectable anaethetic is used, the baby will suffer after effects for about 8-12 hours, with gas it will be no more than 2. Our babies are very vunerable, and if they have to go back on ventilators for more than an hour or two they can be difficult to get off again (I have known it take over a week). Gas requires a more experienced practitioner, as its a lighter anaesthetic, and pain relief is crucial as severe pain can bring the baby round from the anaesthetic. Injectable gives an almost guaranteed effect for a fairly precise amount of time, hence its perceived as 'better'.

The bottom line is that the circumstances have to be assessed for each patient as an individual
 
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