Possible Ivermectin reaction

Hi!

I'm new to this forum, so hello! I have 2 house rabbits both dwarf lops, about 5 years old, Izzy (buck) & Jazmine (doe) living together and both neutered (of course!).

I could write the whole history, but it's a bit of an epic! So in brief, Jazmine at the moment is being fussy about her food and is just starting to improve following what we think is a bad reaction to Panomec (Ivermectin), and I have a few questions:

1. Has anyone else had a rabbit that has reacted badly to Panomec or Ivermectin?

2. Does anyone know how long Ivermectin stays in the rabbits system? And therefore how long Jazmine will be experiencing side effects for?

3. Has anyone else come across the rabbits 3rd eyelid? (My mother-in-law told me that apparently it's a sign of illness in cats) We only occasionally see it and 2 vets have said it's nothing to worry about as she doesn't seem to have any eye problems.

4. Has anyone seen rabbits 'retching'? This has only been recently happening and only occasionally, usually only when Jazmine's eating leaves, like spring greens, or dandelion leaves. I wondered if it was the leaves that had got stuck on her teeth at the back of her throat and she couldn't get it out?

5. Any ideas how I can get Jazmine to eat hay? She's never been that bothered about it, so yesterday I ordered a sample pack from The Hay Experts & Willow Warren in the hope she might like a different flavour to the three I've already offered her!

Thanks in advance.

Nic

Hello

I would say it sounds like Jazmine may have dental problems. If the Ivomec was given for mites-mites often occur in Bunnies who are not able to groom themself well due to Dental problems (molar spurs). I have never heard of anorexia being a side-effect of Ivomectin :? Just the occassional local skin reaction. The eye-lid problem could also indicate trouble with the teeth (believe it or not!!), the gagging is POSSIBLY related to teeth problems but can also be a result of an infection. Your Rabbit is of an age/breed where dental problems, particularly molar spurs, are very likely. Add to that the poor hay eating and I'd wage a bet that her teeth need treatment. So I'd take her to your Vet to have her teeth checked.

Janex

I do know people whose rabbits have had severe reactions to oral Ivermectin, but they were far more severe. These were near-death cases. In both cases the rabbits were rushed to the vet and given charcoal to absorb the meds and fluids to help flush them out faster. Also, it's thought that this reaction might be linked to blue-eyed Dutch rabbits although there is no hard evidence.

So I agree with Jane- she needs a vet visit to check out her teeth and rule out other potential causes.

our old bun had a terrible reaction to xenex spot on for mites it burnt his skin it was awful..
ivermectin jabs/beaphar spot on tend to make the skin ithcy as the mites go nuts and the bunnies have a scratching contest..like cats when theyve got fleas and you give them flea treatments!!

sadly i have to concurr this sounds very much like a dental problem..see the vet asap as soft tissue damage occurs very easily and quickly..bif was a bit like that as she had an ulcer under her tongue and to the side of it caused by a spur that the vet didnt think was bif enough to cause a problem..it happens..

Hi

Thanks all for your quick responses!

Jazmine has recently had a dental operation (3rd January), she also had one about 6 months before then. I did question her teeth/mouth with the vets on numerous occasions over the last couple of weeks.

She had a mouth ulcer just before her dental op, surely this wouldn't still be a problem now almost 4 weeks on, would it?

That's interesting that mites are more problematic when dental problems are around, that would figure as the mites started up about 5 days or so after her dental op.

I noticed she was cleaning herself a lot, but didn't particularly notice any baldness straight away as she was pulling fur out of her tummy, rather than her back (apparantly the vets said that this is not so common).

I have had her to the vets 6 times in the last 2 weeks, we've seen 4 different vets, 3 of which have looked in her mouth for dental problems.

One vet said that apparently one of her teeth is quite crooked, but no sharp bits. Another vet said her mouth looked a little inflamed and gave her an anti-inflamitory injection. (It was rather hard to tell if this made any difference as she had the Panomec injection the same day and was obviously feeling rather off it!) And the 3rd vet said everything seemed ok, no apparant soreness or sharp bits!

It does appear to be dental related as she doesn't seem to be able to chew things, likes green leaves even though she wants to eat them. If I hold a leaf for her she'll rip a bit off and try to chew it, then get frustrated and spit it out.

I actually saw her trying to eat hay earlier too, but same again, chews for a while then spits it out.

The other thing as well that's happening, she has a respiratory infection which she was on antibiotics for a week, until the vet stopped them last Thursday, but she's still wheezing particularly when she's relaxed or sleeping. She actually started snoring and occasionally sneezing about 2 years ago and I took her to the vets but they couldn't find anything wrong - I'm sure her respiratory problems started back then!

I'm glad Jazmine didn't react as bad as the rabbits you mentioned, Naturestee, that sounds very nasty!

I'm keeping a close eye on Jazmine at the moment and feeding her hidden Fibreplex, as suggested by the vet, along with anything else I can get her to eat at the moment! She seems ok with finely grated carrots and moist supa excel, but I keep trying different things with not much luck.

I'm fast loosing faith in our vets, just out of interest does anyone know a rabbit savy vet in Sheffield?

Thanks again!

Nic

I feel sure Jazmine would benefit from another FULL COURSE of antibiotics + DAILY pain relief. I have a Rabbit in what appears to be the same situation as Jazmine (except Muirne, my Bun, does not have any respiratory tract problems) Muirne had yet another Dental yesterday and she is now on daily Penicillin Injections and pain relief as there was a lot of infection and inflammation in her gums. Plus she lost 3 more molars!!
There is no way this condition can be managed without DAILY medication.

The stress from Jazmines sore mouth has no doubt triggered off her respiratory problems again. 'Snuffles, Mites and reduced GI motility are all a common consequence of physiological stress in Bunnies. Has your Vet ensured that Jazmine does not have any problems in the ROOTS of her teeth? Dental X-rays and full examination of the mandible would help determine the extent of any overgrown tooth roots (these can lead to abscesses)

I am affraid I cant help with any recommendations of rabbit savvy Vets in Sheffield but hopefully someone else on here can. Or if you are a member of the RWA you can call their helpline. They keep a list of Vets who have been recommended to them by other Bunny carers.

http://www.houserabbit.co.uk/

I hope that you are able to help Jazmine feel more comfortable. If her Dental disease is advanced then a cure may not be possible but I feel sure that a good medication regime will improve things for her. She may never be able to eat hay but Muirne has not been able to do that for 3 years!! She can only eat Science Selective Pellets and Veg. We have been fortunate that despite the lack of long fibre Muirne's guts have coped OK.

Janex

Thanks Jane, I did consider asking the vet for an x-ray to be done, I will speak to them today about this.

My only concern is that one of the occasions we took Jazmine down to the vets I was told her pulse was "a little weaker than the I would like", the following day another vet said that her pulse rate was "slightly slower than a cats, which is good for a rabbit", this vet couldn't compare it with the previous vet's findings as she hadn't timed her pulse rate!

When the vet stopped Jazmine's treatment I was both pleased and displeased - pleased that she didn't have to have the stress of going back to the vets, but displeased because Jazmine still had her symptoms and I didn't really have any answers!

My husband actually filmed Jazmine last night in her sleeping accomodation and we're planning on taking this video down to the vets today to show Jazmine as she is in her natural environment. I actually can't believe what he managed to capture in the few mins he was filming her.

She's snoring while she's asleep and wheezing while she's eating. We wanted to show a little bit of what she can't eat and a little bit of what she can, so we gave her a bite of a leaf and she tried to chew and actually managed to swallow it, but she also retched too! (I hate it when she does that!) But then we fed her some moistened supa excel and she ate that happily. The last image is just to show her bald-ish belly.

The video is up on the web if anyone would like to see it. It's a little bit grainy as it was a bit dark and he's boosted the sound a little:
http://www.avaproductions.co.uk/jazzmine.wmv

You mentioned about the 3rd eyelid being related to teeth problems, please could you tell me a bit more about this?

I'll let you know what happens at the vets today.

Thanks

Nic

Teeth, X-Rays & Blood Tests

Ok, we went to the vets on Tuesday and saw my favourite of the vets at the surgery. The video went down really well the vet seemed to appreciate it and was watching Jazmine's breathing, body language and responsiveness. We had a really long chat with her about all Jazmine's symptoms and she had lots of time for us, which was nice. She had a look in Jazmine's mouth and found an ulcer and a spike.

Jazmine was started on antibiotics & pain relief (metacam) which I am to continue giving to her until we go back to the vets on Thursday next week.

Although it was a little more risky with Jaz having a respiratory infection we decided for the vet to operate on her again on Wednesday.

As her teeth are growing crooked the vet burred them with a machine to slightly lower the level of her teeth (the vet did make sure they all met aferwards) so hopefully the spikes won't come back quite so quickly. While she was under the anesthetic we had an x-ray done and some blood taken for tests, just for good measure!

When I collected Jazmine after her operation I saw the x-ray and the vet pointed out that she is showing no real signs of dental root problems, which is good. One thing she did point out was the bone on the crown of Jaz's head is a little more transparent than the rest of her bones, apparently this could be kidney related, so we now just have to wait for the blood test results coming back. The vet also said Jazmine has a sore throat and that this is probably related to the URI.

At the moment Jazmine is still eating grated carrot, moistened supa excel and any other soft or grated rabbit-friendly foods I can get her to eat. Since her op she has started to eat much quicker again. I guess she will start eating solids again when her ulcer & throat start to get better, she has tried the green leaves again and manages it for a little while but then gets frustrated.

I've also seen her trying to eat hay but she can't seem to chew it yet. I did manage to get her to eat a little bit of grass the other day, but after a short while she got frustrated again, so I put some in the blender with some parsley and she ate some of it.

Jazmine is so much brighter and happier now, I know she's not 100% yet, but she's the happiest I've seen her for a few weeks. So hopefully we have found the cause of the issue and if we can get to keep eating and get her strength up, then hopefully with the help of the antibiotics she should be able to fend off this URI & of course the mites.

The main thing at the moment is she is clearly feeling better in herself and she is able to eat more easliy now.

So thanks all for your advice so far, it's been really useful!

Nic

Well done, it sounds like by sticking to your guns with the vets you've got to the bottom of the issue. Sometimes the vet can miss a small spur or one can grow out very quickly so it's worth checking even if it's only a couple of weeks after the op.

Another food you might like to try with her is porridge (mix porridge oats with water to make mush) you can then mix in grated carrot/veg and crushed pellets. It's soft so easy to eat but also easy to grab a mouth full where as soggy pellets etc. can sometimes turn into soup It's also good if she's having trouble keeping weight on while she's not eating as much. As with any food start with just a little.

Tam

Sending vibes for Jasmine to improve, if I were you I'd always request to see the last vet now you've found the cause to the problem.

Glad to hear that it sounds like the vets are getting to the bottom of the issue, it must be so frustrating to be told different things when you KNOW something is wrong!

Thanks I'll give the porridge a go, she has had oats before and absolutely loves them. I'd been trying not to give her oats because I understand it can put weight on a rabbit, but like you say maybe that's not such a bad thing at the moment!

I most certainly will be asking to see that vet where I can! It's funny because I liked that vet from the start and always used to request to see her, I'll definitely be going back to that theory now! We're going back to see her on Thursday too.

I have learned quite a lot along the way, but one of them is certainly perseverance and ask as many questions as you can! The info I have found from this forum was great as I was able to ask the vet specifics without undermining them, like about Dental Disease which then started the x-ray & blood test discussion.

It's funny, Izzy seems to have picked up on Jazmine feeling better as he's been binkying all over the kitchen the last few days!

Nic