Causes of sudden deaths

Having lost 4 buns very suddenly with no warning (well, Mary had been poorly for a while but was on the mend and doing better than he had in a while), I'm really worried now it's something contagious.
I've just got the one bun now, Nina. She's going for a vet checkup tonight, but was wondering if there was anything in particular that might be worth having her checked/treated for just incase? :?
The buns were all treated with Panacur after Mary died incase it was EC. None of the bunnies that died appeared to have anything wrong externally, other than Squishy who had a little bit of wet poo on his bum (but not loads, and not runny, just wet).
I'm going to pop round to the neighbours to ask if they've used any pesticides or chemicals recently, as the bun shed is near to the fence inbetween us, and they're new neighbours so are probably doing several jobs in the garden.
Buns were up to date on vaccs, were fed the same as always (SS). I did get a fresh bale of hay but they've had it from the same place before, and the chinchillas and degu have been eating this stuff with no problem. Joey died before I got it anyway.
I'm going to give the shed a really good clean with lots of disinfectant, though I might set up Nina indoors to keep a closer eye on her. I'm thinking of seeing if I can sort out another shed for the animals, that faces into our garden just incase it's to do with the neighbours, but I've not smelt or heard them spraying anything.
Is it worth getting blood tests on her just incase? And maybe treating her for EC again incase they somehow got infected again? :?
Bit of a morbid question, but how soon after death does a PM have to be done? I'd like to have one done on Squishy and Rex if possible but last night my mind just wasn't there so I didn't think to leave Squishy at the vet or put the bodies in the freezer or anything. They've been sitting wrapped in blankets in my room waiting to be buried. I don't like the idea of them being cut up but if it can save Nina's life I'll do it. I'd phone and ask the vet but I don't trust myself not to start crying again at work, just abot managing as it is

So sorry to hear this Karly
Were all your Buns vaccinated against VHD?

Are you using the same feed supplier? Any risk of Alflatoxins getting into the feed where its stored?

Sudden death, if not VHD, is usually cardiac related. EC tends to cause symptoms which develop over a period of time (weight loss, head tilt, hind leg paresis, incontinence)

PM's need to be done ASAP after death and cannot be done on a previously frozen body.

What a really horrible time you are having...

Janex

Yup, twice a year myxi and once a year VHD. Bought a sack of SS so they've been fed exactly the same stuff for a while now (almost at the end of the sack, but it's still in date and everything). Some was stored in a plastic tub in their shed, with the bulk in a metal tin in our storage shed. Tub is totally sealed, with a lid lock so it couldn't be left open or anything by mistake. Nina and Joey lost a bit of weight but put it on when pellets were upped by a handful between them, think the amount they needed indoors wasn't enough when they were outdoors but they seemed fine after increasing it, and Joey had put the weight back on before he died.
Don't know if it's related but one of my chinchillas (who shares the shed, though the cage is raised out of reach of the bunnies) died recently too. Very similar way, fine one minute, found him cold and gasping for breath. Rushed to the vets and they said his heart was failing, and he died not long after being put in an incubator with oxygen
Seems weird that this happened too, so similar yet with a different species.
I take it it's too late for a PM then? Squishy died about 12:30 this morning. Is there any sort of tests I should ask to be run on Nina to try and spot anything?

Karly said:

Yup, twice a year myxi and once a year VHD. Bought a sack of SS so they've been fed exactly the same stuff for a while now (almost at the end of the sack, but it's still in date and everything). Some was stored in a plastic tub in their shed, with the bulk in a metal tin in our storage shed. Tub is totally sealed, with a lid lock so it couldn't be left open or anything by mistake. Nina and Joey lost a bit of weight but put it on when pellets were upped by a handful between them, think the amount they needed indoors wasn't enough when they were outdoors but they seemed fine after increasing it, and Joey had put the weight back on before he died.
Don't know if it's related but one of my chinchillas (who shares the shed, though the cage is raised out of reach of the bunnies) died recently too. Very similar way, fine one minute, found him cold and gasping for breath. Rushed to the vets and they said his heart was failing, and he died not long after being put in an incubator with oxygen
Seems weird that this happened too, so similar yet with a different species.
I take it it's too late for a PM then? Squishy died about 12:30 this morning. Is there any sort of tests I should ask to be run on Nina to try and spot anything?

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You could ask for a PM on Squishy. I expect the Vet would look for any obvious problem with the major organs before tissue sampling
Sorry Karly, this must be so hard to talk about But as you say it seems important to try to establish if there is a possibility that the sudden deaths were connected.

I dont know anything about Chinnies so could not sat if any disease they may have could be transmitted to other species. But again with such a sudden death it would have to be something that attacks the heart/lungs/liver.... :?
Rapid onset (Acute) Pneumonia can cause sudden death. Do Chinnies carry Bordatella Bronchiseptica/ Pasteurella?

Janex

What about mouse or rat poo, if it was in feed?
Or mouse or rat poison?

Sorry - Nina's fine, still active and everything. Want her checked over though to be on the safe side.
Not sure about the chins and Bordatella, will check it out. Did a search on a chin forum and came up with nothing under 'Bordatella'
Actually just looked under Pasteurella and it seems there have been cases of chins with it.

Angie, the only access to the shed that rats or mice could have got in is from the vent near the roof, but my mum's bf fitted a wooden frame with a double layer of fine mesh so nothing could get through. I've not seen rats around the shed, and the metal tin is always sealed. Bag wasn't chewed or left out or anything :?

ETA: Just remembered the last few days I have seen a ladder propped up in next door's garden right near the fence near the shed, so will definately pop around this evening and ask :? But they've just got a puppy and had a baby so would have thought they'd be careful with anything fume-y

Karly said:

Sorry - Nina's fine, still active and everything. Want her checked over though to be on the safe side.
Not sure about the chins and Bordatella, will check it out. Did a search on a chin forum and came up with nothing under 'Bordatella'
Actually just looked under Pasteurella and it seems there have been cases of chins with it.

Angie, the only access to the shed that rats or mice could have got in is from the vent near the roof, but my mum's bf fitted a wooden frame with a double layer of fine mesh so nothing could get through. I've not seen rats around the shed, and the metal tin is always sealed. Bag wasn't chewed or left out or anything :?

ETA: Just remembered the last few days I have seen a ladder propped up in next door's garden right near the fence near the shed, so will definately pop around this evening and ask :?

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I am sorry, I had hoped I'd ammended my thread before you saw I'd put the wrong name for the bun who passed away at 1230
The last thing I want to do is upset you more...

Janex

Karly how long have your animals been in the shed?

If they haven't been out there long did you treat the shed yourself before they moved in and could this have been a cause if they have been chewing the shed wood.

Also have you got anything in there painted that is old. Just thinking about lead based paint.

No that's fine Jane, was just a mistake.
I'll take Squishy along with me and see what they do. Just fingers crossed the appointment isn't with the horrible lady I asked to do a PM on one of my rats - she basically told me it was a waste of time and money :evil: But they only had the one appointment left this evening and I want Nina checked out asap :?

Oh Karly - I'm so sorry to read this - how awful for you to lose so many animals. I really hope you get to the bottom of the problem, for yours and Ninas sake.

Hugs to you both.

xxx

Just had a read through my Vet Books and this is what I have found:

Causes of Sudden Death

1 Acute Renal Failure

2-Cardiomyopathy/Cardio-Vascular Disease

3 EC- Acute brain damage leading to seizure and death. Cardiac lesions

4 Electrocution

5 Haemorrhage- VHD, Internal eg uterine endometrial venous aneurysm

6 Listeriosis

7 Acute Intestinal obstruction

8 Osophageal obstruction

9 Severe respiratory tract lesion-foreign body, granuloma, neoplasia)

10 Fluid infection eg Pasteurellosis causing acute dyspnoea (difficulty breathing)

11 'Night Fright'- sight/smell/sound of predator

12 Pregnancy Toxaemia

13 Torsion of internal organ eg Liver

14 Ingestion of Toxin


Janex

So sorry to hear about your bunnies...could it be something the neighbours are doing which causes fright? Or could you have a fox visiting your garden? Just some thoughts if no other signs shown.

Nothing I can think of that's loud or makes any bangs or anything. I live surrounded by farmland so there's a chance foxes come in in the night but the setup of the shed means they couldn't see the buns, and the buns couldn't see them. The door is bolted and padlocked so it can't come open.

I would certainly enquire about weedkillers/pesticide sprays the neighbours may have used or that fence paint you apply as a spray - don't know if it is pet safe but that would be sprayed on the fence and could drift over into your bunny's shed.

Otherwise do you have any old chemicals stored in there yourself, some old white spirit etc with the lid off?

Caz

Another thought ,

Is your shed heated?
If so do you have a Carbon Monoxide detector?

Janex

Nope, it's just the buns and the chinchilla cage in there (and metal tins of food stored under the chinchilla cage)
Not heated, chinchillas do well with cold and the buns had time to adapt and had extra boxes and hay to snuggle in if they were cold, but the shed itself is quite sheltered so doesn't get too cold. They were more often than not sleeping outside the boxes anyway so I don't think they were too cold.
I checked the shed last night and there's nothing out of the ordinary in there, no gaps in the mesh where something could squeeze through or anything

I am sorry about your loss, it must be so hard for you. Were the buns related or from different litters? Did the bunnies and chin come out into a run and could they have eaten some toxic plant?
There was a similar case to yours I read about on an American site and it turned out, in that case, to be toxins in the feed. I hope you get to the route of why you have lost your buns and chin. Thinking of you at this difficult timexx

Karly said:

I'm going to pop round to the neighbours to ask if they've used any pesticides or chemicals recently, as the bun shed is near to the fence inbetween us, and they're new neighbours so are probably doing several jobs in the garden.

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even if it were chemical, it has to be directly contact -- as in eating it.

If they smell it, it has to be prolong and constant exposure, as in months before cancer occur.

I meant more that the chemical could be toxic, than carcinogenic. The deaths were sudden with no warning - they were perfectly fine the last time they were checked on, and dead (or near to it) the next.
The buns went out in a run but it was always on the grass. It was only grass, dandelions and dirt that the run was on, and I always was with them (as the run is puppy pens, rather than a normal one with lid)
The food is the same as they've been fed for the past couple of months, stored in tubs where they couldn't get infected.
Omg, just typing this, I remembered that one of them had managed to knock the tub of chinchilla pellets over and it'd spilt over the floor. There was only about a small handful left in there and I didn't think anything of it at the time as chins and buns are very similar, both needing high fibre, plain diets. If there was something wrong with the chin pellets it could explain the link? Gismo was always first at the food bowl so there's a high chance he'd have eaten more than Morgan. But again, I'd had the bag for at least a couple of months with no problems :? Don't have any more left though, so can't check, but it was in date and never heard of any problems with it before (Charwoods chinchilla pellets)
New bale of hay, but have used stuff from the same place before, and the chinchillas, degu and Nina are eating it and are fine.
Nina's fine (she's staying in my room now, scared me this morning when I couldn't see her but came hopping over as soon as she heard my bed creaking!) with big golden poos, a good appetite, and being cheeky as usual. I'm feeding her from a bag of Excel Lite I had, rather than the SS, just incase - they were always given small amounts of Excel Lite to keep them used to it as this is what the vets used, and I wanted their tums to be used to it incase they were ever rushed to the vets and had to stay in and I had no pellets with me.
No they weren't related but all came from Notcutts when I worked there because of having various problems - Joey had suspected cocci(-however you spell it), was basically bunged up one end with very runny, almost diarreah-like poo, and not eating. He was on antibiotics and syringe feeding and had been fine since. He lost weight a couple of months ago so all the buns were treated for EC just incase. He'd gained the weight and been fine. Squishy had malloclusion and on-off tummy problems. His litter was from a one-off "supplier" - no one knew the guy, they'd not had animals from him before. Two of the buns died within days, of clear diarreah. Joey was put in this cage without it being disinfected properly and this is when his illness started :x Squishy had constant tummy problems - he'd get better when in quarantine room and problems when back on the shop floor.
Rex broke his tooth in the cage and it grew back wonky, and affected the rest of his teeth. Despite this, he could manage biting and never had any tummy problems.
Nina was from there too, being extremely fussy and none of the other staff encouraged her to eat hay, so she was never quite right in the tummy area (was given unlimited Russel Rabbit). She also got in a fight with her sister and had problems with the skin being very irritated for a while after, so she came home with me.

I can't offer any suggestions, but I just wanted to say that you sound like the best bunny mum these bunnies could have had. You rescued them from what could have been a very miserable life and gave them everything they could have wanted, and oodles of love. I'm so sorry this has happened. Sending our love to you and Nina.