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View Full Version : Does not vaccinating and neutering make a bad rescue?



Azraelm
17-09-2006, 03:09 PM
Have read a few things about 'rescue standards' over the last few weeks that I have thought have been very unfair.

There are several rescues that due to lack of funds and the HUGE number of rabbits that take in, are unable to vaccinate and neuter all their rabbits. It seems that in some peoples eyes this makes them a bad or not very good rescue and opens them up to criticism.

I completely disagree with this and think it is incredibly judgemental.
In an ideal, money-no-problem world of course they would all be vaccinated and neutered fully, but where would many desperately in need rabbits be without these rescues? (I am NOT saying that those rescues who do neuter and vaccinate do not have money problems also.)

Yes, they could have a waiting list so take in less rabbits, but some rescues I know of say they are reluctant to do this as when they call to say there is a place, the bun has gone :(

Some of these rescues have been running for many many years and do not receive much in way of donations or even adoption fees but still perservere and offer a safe haven for buns that may otherwise be in danger/neglect etc

So anyway, this is my not very eloquent way of saying that, Im obviously not a rescue, but i think it would be nice if everyone could work together to help buns :)

Jack's-Jane
17-09-2006, 03:21 PM
In an ideal world all Rescues would have enough funds to neuter and vaccinate every rabbit they take in. But as you say, some Rescues do have a huge intake, poor funding and so just cannot meet that criteria.

So what do they do :?
Turn Rabbits away to an unknown fate :cry:
Insist on very large donations to take in a rabbit (which many people wont pay)

I am very much pro neutering and vaccinating BUT I can also understand how impossible this is for some Rescues. Not really sure what the solution is :? But I dont think making some Rescues feel 'bad' because they cant attain 'perfection' is very helpful.
Perhaps the Rescues who do manage to afford to neuter and vaccinate all intakes could put together tips as to how they have achieved this and share the info' with Rescues who struggle :? :?

Janex

Tamsin
17-09-2006, 03:24 PM
Coincidentally I'm trying to put together some rules/guidelines/code that I'd to set up so rescues have to agree to before being listed on RR. so far I've come up with:


Vaccinate or promote vaccination of all adopted rabbits against VHD and myxomatosis.

Neuter or promote the neutering of all adopted rabbits.

Never to breed from rabbits taken into rescue.

Provide prompt medical attention for sick or injured animals in care of the rescue.

Provide clean water and hay at all times.

Provide suitable accommodation and exercise space for rabbits in care and promote the RSPCA and RWA recommended minimum hutch sizes.

Keep accurate records of the rabbits in care and use adoption contracts to ensure new owners understand their responsibilities.


The trouble is that not all 'rescues' give out good advice and that makes more work for rescues and means confususion for the public. If you go to one rescue and they say 'nope you can't keep rabbits together' and another says 'we only rehome rabbits together' how does a prospective new owner tell which is right?

I'm also putting some articles together for rescues which I hope people will help me send out to places that maybe need a little guidence.

The trouble is that it's very easy for a rescue to become a place rabbits needs to be rescued from. Yes, turning a rabbit away could mean it's furtures uncertain but their is a limit to the numbers you can take before the standards start to drop. More than one of the big rescue efforts for tens of bunnies have come from places where the people started out helping out taking in bunnies and never said no.

The biggest rescue in the country deals with a thousand bunnies a year - all neutered and vaccs. I don't think rescues that can't are bad, and as you say their aren't enough places in rescue to be fussy BUT if the rescue doesn't then they should take other steps to ensure it's done e.g. making it part of the adoption agreement, not rehoming unneutered buns to live in households with other unneutered buns etc.

Tam

Azraelm
17-09-2006, 03:32 PM
Coincidentally I'm trying to put together some rules/guidelines/code that I'd to set up so rescues have to agree to before being listed on RR. so far I've come up with:


Vaccinate or promote vaccination of all adopted rabbits against VHD and myxomatosis.

Neuter or promote the neutering of all adopted rabbits.

Never to breed from rabbits taken into rescue.

Provide prompt medical attention for sick or injured animals in care of the rescue.

Provide clean water and hay at all times.

Provide suitable accommodation and exercise space for rabbits in care and promote the RSPCA and RWA recommended minimum hutch sizes.

Keep accurate records of the rabbits in care and use adoption contracts to ensure new owners understand their responsibilities.


The trouble is that not all 'rescues' give out good advice and that makes more work for rescues and means confususion for the public. If you go to one rescue and they say 'nope you can't keep rabbits together' and another says 'we only rehome rabbits together' how does a prospective new owner tell which is right?

I'm also putting some articles together for rescues which I hope people will help me send out to places that maybe need a little guidence.

The trouble is that it's very easy for a rescue to become a place rabbits needs to be rescued from. Yes, turning a rabbit away could mean it's furtures uncertain but their is a limit to the numbers you can take before the standards start to drop. More than one of the big rescue efforts for tens of bunnies have come from places where the people started out helping out taking in bunnies and never said no.

The biggest rescue in the country deals with a thousand bunnies a year - all neutered and vaccs. I don't think rescues that can't are bad, and as you say their aren't enough places in rescue to be fussy BUT if the rescue doesn't then they should take other steps to ensure it's done e.g. making it part of the adoption agreement, not rehoming unneutered buns to live in households with other unneutered buns etc.

Tam

Those guidelines are excellent :)
Sorry, I was thinking, but didnt say, that of course rescues that cannot afford vacs and neuterings would have an agreement that the new owner would get this done :)

And of course there truly are 'bad' rescues which may breed or not provide medical attention, but I was more talking about ones that do achieve everything in your guidelines, but struggle when it comes to paying for vacs and neuters :wink:

Azraelm
17-09-2006, 03:33 PM
Perhaps the Rescues who do manage to afford to neuter and vaccinate all intakes could put together tips as to how they have achieved this and share the info' with Rescues who struggle :? :?

Janex

good idea :)

Spacegirl
17-09-2006, 04:06 PM
What about homechecking? Isn't that one of the key things to rehoming rabbits? I really think that all rescues should homecheck.
And I have to say that I think ther ARE some bad rescues. One of my rabbits came from a rescue that didn't nueter or vaccinate or homecheck or give any information about rabbits. I simply phoned to ask when I could go ans see the rabbits and was allowed to take away any one I wanted - she didn't even ask for a specific donation and seemed surprised when I gave her one. At the time I wasn't aware of all the other rescues and I wouldn't use that one again. Its no better than giving them away in the freeads to the first caller.

AlisonA
17-09-2006, 04:17 PM
Agree with Sally! The place I homechecked locally for Chloe had a giant in a 4ft hutch - and they got her from a rescue (incidentally I think it was the same one that Sally was talking about!). To me, that goes to show how absolutely critical homechecking is; people are very good at talking the right talk but it often doesn't follow through into practice - Eve says she turns away more people than she accepts and I think this is quite right! It's all very well having a neutered and vaccinated rabbit but if it's going to live the rest of its life in unsuitable accommodation, then I think that is less use than having an unneutered rabbit in superb accommodation!

I think those guidelines by Tam are excellent - my only concern is what happens to the rabbits in rescues that cannot sign up to these guidelines for whatever reason - are the buns likely to stay in rescue for much longer if this route of 'advertising' (which in itself is perhaps more likely to generate better homes than the freeads) is removed from them?

Azraelm
17-09-2006, 04:26 PM
Sally and Alison, both valid points :)

BUT...I was really only talking about rescues who cannot afford vaccinating and neutering, perhaps the post title is misleading. (edit: changed now).

For example I mean KatieB's rescue, Bowden Bunny Rescue who have had a bit of stick recently because they cannot afford to neuter and vaccinate all, which I think is totally unfair.

I was trying to offer support to rescues like Katie's :)

woodstock
17-09-2006, 04:40 PM
[devils advocate]
But homechecking is another major source of expense to rescues - are photos not enough?
Also, If a rescue home check a home, and decide the owners aren't up to it, chances are they might just go to a pet shop and buy a bun there instead of taking a bun from a rescue, fueling the breeders rather than rehoming an unwanted bun[/devils advocate]

It's a big 'ole catch 22. You want to make it easy enough for people to adopt from rescues to encourage them to do so (instead of buying from pet shops or breeders), but you want to make it difficult enough so that 'bad' owners buy from pet shops instead of taking buns on from rescues.

I suppose i'm guilty of being a 'bad' owner - my 2 nethie dwarf/dutches lived in a hutch that's definetly not the size recommended by the RSPCA, so that qualifies me to be a bad owner. So I suppose I wouldn't have been able to have rescue buns before (had I tried). But I don't think that would have prevented me from buying the buns I did from the pet shop.

I suppose in an ideal world, there would be enough ideal homes for rescues buns. But i'm guessing there aren't. So is it better to let buns go out to homes that aren't ideal, or keep the buns at the rescue.
How do rescues cope with the fact that the world isn't ideal? Do they refuse to acknowledge that it isn't and categorise owners as 'good' or 'bad' and refuse to rehome to non-ideals, or do they acknowledge that the world isn't ideal, so the best chance of a home for a bun isn't always ideal, but at least rehoming an unwanted bun is better than taking on a pet shop or breeders bun?

sorry - this ended up being very long winded.... I guess i'm thinking about it while I write it.... :oops:

AlisonA
17-09-2006, 04:48 PM
Also, If a rescue home check a home, and decide the owners aren't up to it, chances are they might just go to a pet shop and buy a bun there instead of taking a bun from a rescue, fueling the breeders rather than rehoming an unwanted bun


True, but by the same token, you could argue that if someone contacted a rescue saying they wanted some rabbits so they could make a nice stew, the rescue should give them one, because they are going to go off and get one from somewhere else to kill instead anyway. There's also a difference between 'not ideal' and blatantly 'unsuitable'. Not ideal can be got round in a variety of ways, for example if the care and accommodation is good but a little unorthodox.

I know I have only rescued one at a time, but if a rabbit is in my care, I feel it is my responsibility to ensure that it only goes to a suitable home, and think that homechecking is a vital part of that. Photos are ok, but they only show what the person has shown to photograph, and not necessarily the whole picture.

Tamsin
17-09-2006, 05:12 PM
I think those guidelines by Tam are excellent - my only concern is what happens to the rabbits in rescues that cannot sign up to these guidelines for whatever reason - are the buns likely to stay in rescue for much longer if this route of 'advertising' (which in itself is perhaps more likely to generate better homes than the freeads) is removed from them?

I don't stop anyone listing a rabbits details on RR but there are some rescues that I have removed from the page listing rescue centres in the past. Whilst the rabbits in those rescue deserve good homes (hence they are allowed to list them) I wouldn't be comfortable recommending them as a rescue to people wanting to rehome their own rabbits. I can't close them down but I'm not going to encourage people to drop their bunnies of at rescues that don't get vet attention for the rabbits that need it. It has to be pretty extreme to be removed not just not neutering/vaccs.

The guidelines are very very basic so I can't really think of a reason they should be a problem. That's why I've put things like:


Neuter or promote the neutering of all adopted rabbits.

So if they don't neuter themselves they need to encourage the adopters to do so e.g. give them advice or make it part of the agreement. I think everyone should be able to manage that?

It's still very much a draft those so any imput you have on adding/altering them is very welcome :)

Tam

Jack's-Jane
17-09-2006, 05:24 PM
'So if they don't neuter themselves ':shock: :shock:

'they need to encourage the adopters to do so' :shock: :shock:



Tam

I am REALLY sorry Tam BUT...... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'll go and sit on the 'naughty step' now.... :oops:

Janex

AlisonA
17-09-2006, 05:31 PM
I don't stop anyone listing a rabbits details on RR but there are some rescues that I have removed from the page listing rescue centres in the past.

Aaahh ok, sorry that was me misreading what you meant! I was thinking that rescues would have to agree to those before being able to list rabbits, but you're talking about being listed on the rescue page, yes?

elaine
17-09-2006, 05:50 PM
i will throw myself on the fire now as I have taken lots of stick in the past,

I now neuter whatever I can as most people agree it does get costly for a small rescue but I have now found a good cheap vet, if any go out un neutered then I make the owners sign the adoption paperwork that tamsin set up for me and yes people do this amazingly enough,

I don't homecheck as i simply do not have the time but nearly every adopter who has been has brought pics of the accom and garden and all sorts of details, as for problems after rehoming only 2 have come back in the last 18 months and that was purely because the owners moved away,

I think now most people are buying big hutches and runs and giving them lots of space to live in,

I now even find people come back for another so I am doing something right.

and to put it simply unless they are really not right if you refuse they will go to a pet shop for one anyway.

I have found a simple way to weed out the unsutable ones tell them they have to have a homecheck and 9 times of 10 they will say they will have a think about it.

Maybe I am lucky that I have had only lovely new people to come

elaine
17-09-2006, 05:51 PM
i will throw myself on the fire now as I have taken lots of stick in the past,

I now neuter whatever I can as most people agree it does get costly for a small rescue but I have now found a good cheap vet, if any go out un neutered then I make the owners sign the adoption paperwork that tamsin set up for me and yes people do this amazingly enough,

I don't homecheck as i simply do not have the time but nearly every adopter who has been has brought pics of the accom and garden and all sorts of details, as for problems after rehoming only 2 have come back in the last 18 months and that was purely because the owners moved away,

I think now most people are buying big hutches and runs and giving them lots of space to live in,

I now even find people come back for another so I am doing something right.

and to put it simply unless they are really not right if you refuse they will go to a pet shop for one anyway.

I have found a simple way to weed out the unsutable ones tell them they have to have a homecheck and 9 times of 10 they will say they will have a think about it.

Maybe I am lucky that I have had only lovely new people to come

elaine
17-09-2006, 05:51 PM
i will throw myself on the fire now as I have taken lots of stick in the past,

I now neuter whatever I can as most people agree it does get costly for a small rescue but I have now found a good cheap vet, if any go out un neutered then I make the owners sign the adoption paperwork that tamsin set up for me and yes people do this amazingly enough,

I don't homecheck as i simply do not have the time but nearly every adopter who has been has brought pics of the accom and garden and all sorts of details, as for problems after rehoming only 2 have come back in the last 18 months and that was purely because the owners moved away,

I think now most people are buying big hutches and runs and giving them lots of space to live in,

I now even find people come back for another so I am doing something right.

and to put it simply unless they are really not right if you refuse they will go to a pet shop for one anyway.

I have found a simple way to weed out the unsutable ones tell them they have to have a homecheck and 9 times of 10 they will say they will have a think about it.

Maybe I am lucky that I have had only lovely new people to come

Adele
17-09-2006, 06:01 PM
i will throw myself on the fire now as I have taken lots of stick in the past,



Hiya Elaine

I dont think any can criticise you for anything you are doing, I admire you for talking so honestly about your situation and perspectives :D You have made some changes about how you run your rescue over the past few months, and this shows you have an open mind and are willing to take new ideas in board :) The problems arise when people are so set in their ways, and not open to change. I think I see things differently in how I run the Sanctuary to how I did 8 years ago, so it has been a learning curve for me too :wink: :D
As you say, there is not a perfect scenario, but as long as basic standards are met (and Tamsins points are a great basis for this :wink: ) then there has to be some flexibilty for individual rescues.
Best wishes
Adele

AlisonA
17-09-2006, 06:08 PM
I have found a simple way to weed out the unsutable ones tell them they have to have a homecheck and 9 times of 10 they will say they will have a think about it.

The problem I see with that, is that doesn't weed out the ones who think they are suitable but in actual fact aren't, and judging by some of the homecheck stories I've heard, and done myself, there seem to be quite a lot who fall into this category! (for example the one I home checked for Chloe were very happy to be homechecked but there is no way I would let her go there, the one that Jill honeybunny did where there were maggots in the filthy hutch, even though they knew she was coming, one Eve did where the rabbit was so overweight it could barely breathe "it's always been like that" etc!) etc etc... Sometimes people are very blind to the reality of their own situations.

Personally I just couldn't give a bun away without having either homechecked myself or trusted someone else to have been, seen and 'approved'. Just my opinion :wink:

Adele
17-09-2006, 06:11 PM
I have found a simple way to weed out the unsutable ones tell them they have to have a homecheck and 9 times of 10 they will say they will have a think about it.

Personally I just couldn't give a bun away without having either homechecked myself or trusted someone else to have been, seen and 'approved'. Just my opinion :wink:

I agree with this Alison :wink:

elaine
17-09-2006, 06:29 PM
I agree with you alison in a ideal world I would love to be able to do everything

AlisonA
17-09-2006, 06:44 PM
Yep that's the problem isn't it, only 24 hours in a day :cry: If only we could all have a go at being Bruce Almighty :wink:

rngpwelfare
17-09-2006, 07:11 PM
I have found a simple way to weed out the unsutable ones tell them they have to have a homecheck and 9 times of 10 they will say they will have a think about it.

Personally I just couldn't give a bun away without having either homechecked myself or trusted someone else to have been, seen and 'approved'. Just my opinion :wink:



I'm afriad that I'm the same as Elaine in that I don't home check.

Although I agree with you Alison that in an ideal world it would be nice to be able to check every bun into it's new home.
I just can't do it and still have time (or the funds) to care for my young family and the animals in my care. As well as doing home checks.

So does this make me a bad rescue even though I neuter and vac for both myxi and vhd and have run quite happliy for 6 years.

Am I one of the rescue that needs to pull their socks up especially as Jill has now said that she will not hand out the phone numbers of rescues that don't home check.

I'm also one of the rescues that will and do turn animals away if the owners won't pay the fee I ask when they come into care to leave it. I couldn't run without these donations. May be I'm just a hard heart person but over the years I'm afraid I've heard every excuse and if your honest with people and explain why you need them to wait until you have space or that you need the donation to help look after their animal while it is our care.Most understand and work with you. For the ones that don't then I'm afraid that there's pleanty to take their place. :(

Spacegirl
17-09-2006, 07:36 PM
I wonder if there are people living in either of your areas who could help to do home checks? When the question was asked on another thread loads of people replied. Obviously lots would probably be inexperoienced but if they were given a specific list of qiestions to ask and things to look for then I'm sure it would be another beneficial way of getting information on a potential owner. Just a thought :D
And Tracey I don't think you are heard hearted for turning some away. I guess its just a sad reality of running a rescue that you have to make those hard decision in order for it to be viable. I think you have to be a special kind of person to deal with that and thank goodness there are lots of you about.

Tamsin
17-09-2006, 07:39 PM
There are lots of things you can do that don't necessarily involve visitinga home. It's not possible for everyone to do everything they'd like. But they can do other things, for example if you don't homecheck, you could ask for photos like Elaine does or invite people for an interview (interigation) at the rescue.

Tam

raven_guest
17-09-2006, 07:44 PM
One of my favourite rescues can't afford to neuter everything but do vaccinate as they can do it themselves, they also give great talks about everything that should be done and I'm not sure about home checking. They also go on the road to fetes/schools etc and educate the public about rabbits, and everything is done from their own pockets.
I should get them listed on here as I'm not sure if they are.
Plus their website has info for all bunny owners, not just newbies (it's in my sig)
I think as long as the intentions and educating prospective owners is there, not neuterring isn't quite so desperately important.

sgprescue
17-09-2006, 08:56 PM
I neuter, vacc, provide vet care and homecheck, its a lot of hard work and takes a fair bit of time and money juggling to do but it can be done. I can think of a few rescues off the top of my head that dont meet a single one of Tamsins criteria (none of them are members on here I might add). I know of one that breeds with their rescue rabbits and another that would rather let their bunnies rot in a hutch than pay out for vet care. I do find that just telling people you homecheck puts a lot of the rubbish homes off coming to you. I am lucky that since I started homechecking in January I havent had to fail one yet but I am sure they will come a time when one will fail. I would not let a rabbit go to an unsuitable home just to free up more space in my rescue. If the home is unsuitable then most likely the bunnies would just end up back in your care anyway and to be honest I wouldnt want it on my consience. Most people are open to suggestion and the decent homes will provide decent accomodation if requested to.
For the rescues that dont have time to homecheck, have you thought about advertising to find people locally that would be willing to do it for you? I now have the help of 2 of the vet nurses from my vets and they have been an enormous help.
I do think neutering especially is important. Although it is expensive if you find a vet that will do it cheap enough it can be incorporated into the adoption fee. I have heard of rescues that have rehomed un-neutered rabbits only to find the new owners have bred with them. To me that defeats the object of running a rescue.

Denny
18-09-2006, 08:48 AM
Has Elaine got off the bonfire yet :lol: :lol: :lol: and who is it sending her sticks in the post :lol: :lol: :lol:

well, interesting topic and many points have been raised many times hence Elaine deciding to become Mrs Guy fawkes in September :lol: :lol: :lol:

It has been said before and given as advice from many established rescues that 'you have to know your limits' :wink: As hard as it is to turn a bun a way a rescue itself has to set a guide line as to how many they can help and many of the rescue keep reserved hutches empty just incase that emergency comes in.

In my opinion, not neutering/speying and vaccinating is not setting a standard or the importancy of it to the potential adopter. Most rescues who do neuter and vaccinate for both VHD and Myxi still run at a loss even with the adoption fee so, even if neutering was to be part of the adoption agreement, not sure they would adhere to it due to cost, it is still cheaper to adopt from a rescue than pay for neutering and the 2 vaccinations yourself.

I believe that, if some-one thinks the adoption fee is too high for a neutered and vaccinated rabbit then they can not afford the rabbit/s. It is like any commitment whether that be a house, children, you have to know you can afford them in the first place, lets face it people pay hundreds for a pedigree dog or cat so why is it assumed that rabbits should be a cheap pet to buy.

Home checking, well, I can see why rescues do this as I can see why some rescues dont purely due to lack of time but there are loads of folk on here that have had rabbits from rescues that post on here but have not been home checked. Again it is assumed that because we are on this forum that we all have the perfect set up with 30foot sheds and 60 foot runs :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yes Tracy did not home check me even though I had spoke with her for about 2 years before plucking up the courage to go to her rescue. Her interigation is excellent although her spot light needs to be dimmed abit :wink:

Her adoption papers is second to non, that women asked for every detail going so I could be traced, about the only thing she did not ask for was my vital statistic's although I am sure if Shaun had written the adoption papers then it would of been a mandatory requirement :lol: :lol: :lol:

AND she made me read the whole lot before taking Eddie bun home :wink: :D

Her paper work on all the animals is great, it is obvious that she also intergated the people who are bringing animals in too :lol: :lol: :lol: must go check my adoption papers to see if I signed a secrecy act :lol: :lol:

I think many long established rescues get a gist of the client well before the animal leaves so get 'that feeling' as to whether some-one is suitable or not.

Neutering/speying is a must in my eyes purely because there are bad breeders out there looking for rabbits to breed and there are the idiots out there still who seem to have accidental litters :roll:
I think many rescues have had emails from people inquiring into 'intact' rabbits so you can only draw your only conclusions as to why they are looking for a rabbit :(

Vaccinations is also a must in my eyes otherwise we wouldn't have the vacines if they were not important and warranted, after all, there have been some on here that have had the misfortune and heart break of seeing these terrible diseases :cry: :cry: :cry: I personally would rather be safe than sorry :wink:

As much as everyone would like to help every bun/piggy it really is not possible unless everyone pulls together and tackles the real issue here and that is why we have so many animals in rescues.

Rescues have to know their own limits and provide that animal with the appropriate care and treatment, its why they started the rescue, for the welfare of the rabbit. If the rescue goes beyond that limit which leads to the lack of care and treatment due to funds then it means that the animal has come out of one bad situation into another which is not fair on the animal :(

So has anyone home checked to see if Elaine is still on the bonfire :?: :shock: :lol:

Sarah
18-09-2006, 12:43 PM
I have seen bad rescues first hand - not members on here I may add.

My problem with rescues not vaccinating or neutering through lack of funds is what happens if an animal needs veterinary attention out of hours, where the fee would start at say £50? If the money is not there for vaccinations, what would happen if emergency treatment were needed? Vet bills for bunnies can run into hundreds of pounds extremely quickly and again, this is from personal experience.



Sarah

KatieB
18-09-2006, 05:51 PM
Right.

We spend all our spare funds on vet treatment, if we have any emergencies we use our credit card.

We NEVER ever leave a rabbit without vet treatment. Just because i can't afford to vacinate or neuter ALL of the buns doesn't mean that i just leave them rotting in a hutch.

We are the only rescue for miles around that treats them like our much loved pets. They ALL have large runs attached to their hutches, get the usual basics like Hay/Food/Veg/Water but also treats and get cuddled, chatted to and paid attention EVERY day.

We have the luxury of space, not all rescues have the time or space to do all of this.

We are a very good rescue, the only 2 negatives that we have is that we get too involved and attached and say no more than yes, most of our buns have been through hell and it makes us even more protective of them.

We are only a small rescue, we don't have a large 'turnover' most rabbits stay here for months.

The other negative is being able to neuter and vacinate. We believe in this totally. When people ring or turn up we always tell them about neutering and vacinating and the benefits. They also get an adoption pack, which includes RWA leaflets on neutering etc. We make sure people understand these and their copy of the contract where we point out the section about not breeding, vacinating and neutering.

We have always had extremely postive feedback and most people keep intouch, and we tell people to shout no matter how irrelvant the question or if they just want a chat.

When people come here most are suprised- because of the setup with runs and hutches, treatment of the animals, treats, very formal as we are home run, not very big so we can give more individual care and the advice/support and information given.

Can't really say anymore on this, as i can't keep explaining myself/rescue all the time.

Don't think i am 'getting' at anyone. Just haven't got the time or energy to keep repeating this, it does upset me ALOT to think that there are people who think we are a BAD rescue because we don't neuter or vac all our buns- though as i have said many time before we are closer to doing this. We have enough going on without having to 'cope' with negative and upsetting comments.

Thank you to those of you though who have commented on the vac/neuter but have chosen a postive and helpful way of helping to solve this problem.

doorkeeper
18-09-2006, 08:29 PM
I haven't been able to vaccinate so far, and am getting very worried about the situation, and am working on it with my vets to buy the vacs in bulk at a reduced rate. But I have made it a condition of adoption that the new owners agree to get it done. I am more concerned for the long stay residents than I am for the ones leaving my care. Caring owners will vaccinate - they stand to lose most from a rabbit catching one of the diseases. Short stays are less likely to be affected whilst in my care, whereas the risk is high over time for those who live here. So my first goal is to vacc the residents (The long term residents were done before but their jabs are now due:()
and the babies who will be here longer waiting to be neutered. From there hopefully I can get to a point where they can all be done as they come in. But I have to do this without removing the safety net of being able to pay for day to day vet care, as it is more likely that a rabbit will get ill from something different.
Neutering them all can be a struggle, but I wouldn't let one go without doing it, no matter how tight money gets as one litter of rabbits from one I let go could undo everything I acheive. Just think one litter of say 6. Then half these rabbits go on to breed, producing 18, then these produce..... this quickly makes the numbers I have helped irrelevant, therefore all my effort pointless.
I home check as I am not experienced enough at this yet to be confident not doing it. Maybe one day I won't feel the need in some situations, but for now I do it despite the huge chunks of time this is taking:( Luckily I am aquiring a team who can help with this:)

Sarah
18-09-2006, 08:39 PM
Katie I am certainly not getting at you - I fully understand how difficult it is but if I were in that position I would not hesitate about putting the myxo vaccs on a credit card.

I have seen terrible rescues, where bunnies were kept stacked up in tiny hutches and did not have any access to a run or exercise EVER. I have never said that that applied to you.

I would not however risk myxo or VHD, or a rabbit which had been in my care being rehomed bred from - that is my personal opinion.


Sarah

Azraelm
18-09-2006, 08:52 PM
I think there have been some interesting points raised in this thread, and im sure in an ideal world we'd all agree that vaccinating and neutering is a must-
but unfortunately it is not an ideal world and the holier-than-thou attitude where some people look down on rescues who cannot do this is wrong IMO
(must say no one has done this is this thread, i think everyone's tried to be helpful and productive.)

Azraelm
18-09-2006, 08:53 PM
I would not however risk myxo or VHD, or a rabbit which had been in my care being rehomed bred from - that is my personal opinion.


Sarah

Even many rescues that do vaccinate (even on RU) do not seem to do both myxi and VHD.

Sarah
18-09-2006, 09:10 PM
Four of my girls came from NCAR in Trelogan - they had had both vaccs but I had them spayed myself.




Sarah

Sarah
18-09-2006, 09:14 PM
And I posted that before I had finished!! Perhaps if you spoke to Pat or Lesley at NCAR, Katie, they may have some suggestions re vaccs etc. They are fab with the bunnies :D and not far from you.




Sarah

Tamsin
18-09-2006, 09:56 PM
Wanna know the stats? (from 90 rescues in 2004)

Adoption Fees:

20 rescues under £10
15 rescues £10-£20
39 rescues £20-£30
12 rescues £30-£35
3 rescues £40 and 1 rescue £50
(Average fee: £20)

Neutering/Vaccs
76% of rescues routinely castrate
56% " " " spay
35% " " " vacc against VHD
54% " " " vacc against Myxy
82% " " " pair up
20% do all 5

So only 20% of rescues neuter and vaccinate against both myxi and vhd!

Spacegirl
18-09-2006, 10:13 PM
I guess with vaccs a lot of the responsibilty should be on the owners anyway. After all, even if a rabbit is vaccd the owner will still have to get boosters at least once a year and those that are willing to do that would most likely be happy to do it stright off. Only problem is the period that they're not covered and the possibility of new rabbits coming in who may be sick etc I guess if money was tight I would go for nuetering first and have a part in the adoption form where the owner agrees to vac.

Angie65
19-09-2006, 08:05 AM
Wanna know the stats? (from 90 rescues in 2004)

Adoption Fees:

20 rescues under £10
15 rescues £10-£20
39 rescues £20-£30
12 rescues £30-£35
3 rescues £40 and 1 rescue £50
(Average fee: £20)

Neutering/Vaccs
76% of rescues routinely castrate
56% " " " spay
35% " " " vacc against VHD
54% " " " vacc against Myxy
82% " " " pair up
20% do all 5

So only 20% of rescues neuter and vaccinate against both myxi and vhd!

Adoption fees are really cheap!! Rescues could easily charge more :?

Jack's-Jane
19-09-2006, 08:10 AM
The last adoption fee I paid was £50 (Voluntary, not asked for) Even that does not cover the cost of neutering/vaccinating.......

Which has just triggered a thought (how rare an event is that :roll: )
I wonder what the actual cost to a Vet is for neutering/vaccinating. How much do the GA drugs cost? What do Vets pay for Vaccines. Do they get a hefty discount for bulk orders? I guess a Rescue would have to establish a good working relationship with their Vet. Doubt Vet would do the neutering/vaccinating on a 'not for profit' basis though..... :?

Janex

Angie65
19-09-2006, 08:19 AM
The last adoption fee I paid was £50 (Voluntary, not asked for) Even that does not cover the cost of neutering/vaccinating.......

Which has just triggered a thought (how rare an event is that :roll: )
I wonder what the actual cost to a Vet is for neutering/vaccinating. How much do the GA drugs cost? What do Vets pay for Vaccines. Do they get a hefty discount for bulk orders? I guess a Rescue would have to establish a good working relationship with their Vet. Doubt Vet would do the neutering/vaccinating on a 'not for profit' basis though..... :?

Janex

I get a neutering bulk discount :lol: :lol: :lol: £27 for boys & £31.50 for girls. Considering that some vets are like £75 - some profit margins must be MASSIVE :shock:

Azraelm
19-09-2006, 09:57 AM
Wanna know the stats? (from 90 rescues in 2004)

Adoption Fees:

20 rescues under £10
15 rescues £10-£20
39 rescues £20-£30
12 rescues £30-£35
3 rescues £40 and 1 rescue £50
(Average fee: £20)

Neutering/Vaccs
76% of rescues routinely castrate
56% " " " spay
35% " " " vacc against VHD
54% " " " vacc against Myxy
82% " " " pair up
20% do all 5

So only 20% of rescues neuter and vaccinate against both myxi and vhd!

thanks for posting that, i think thats defiently cause for the rescues who dont vaccinate all not to feel bad as it actually seems most dont!

Some people give a literally tiny donation to Kirkby when they adopt a rabbit? Often neutered and vaccinated for one disease! :o They're reluctant to have a minimum in case it puts people off and they want the rabbits to find good homes (dont worry they do make sure it is a good home.)

So with incredibly generous people like that :roll: , you can understand why some rescues struggle to do everything!

kayjay
19-09-2006, 10:31 AM
Mandy, I really think there should be a minimum of say £15, the people who only donate £5 are ridiculous. I think that higher minimums such as £40 do put people off (until they realise the cost of spaying and vaccinations) but I wouldn't think £15 would put off any genuine person looking to rehome a bunny.

Azraelm
19-09-2006, 10:32 AM
Mandy, I really think there should be a minimum of say £15, the people who only donate £5 are ridiculous. I think that higher minimums such as £40 do put people off (until they realise the cost of spaying and vaccinations) but I wouldn't think £15 would put off any genuine person looking to rehome a bunny.

I agree and have said as much, but its up to them :?

Spacegirl
19-09-2006, 11:06 AM
I think I'd feel inclined to turn down anywone who thought a rabbit was only worth paying £5 for :?

Azraelm
19-09-2006, 01:11 PM
I think I'd feel inclined to turn down anywone who thought a rabbit was only worth paying £5 for :?

well luckily its not me or you having to make that difficult decision with a HUGE number of rabbits needing homes :wink:

SOAD
19-09-2006, 01:16 PM
Well I will always fly the Kirby flag (even though I've never actually been there :lol: ), so I don't think it's a bad thing if they don't neuter.

I know Celia has had a lot of the buns vaccinated against vhd. It must be hard because I believe the numbers are going back up. What would of happened to the rabbits that hadn't of been took in by her isn't even worth thinking about. Some care is better than no care. The thing is Celia doesn't believe in neutering female buns anyway, so even if there was funds, morally she's against it. She does get bucks neutered so they can live with does though :D

kayjay
19-09-2006, 01:19 PM
It's a tricky one isn't it? I know there's the people who think if you can't afford a hefty donation you can't afford a rabbit. However there may be some very lovely homes out there with people who can't afford an outright fee but would find money on credit for vet bills etc and with the huge number of buns needing homes can we afford to be so picky? By turning down people they may well go to a pet shop and thereby add to the problem of too many buns being bred for pet shops. A vicious circle really, are you better off letting your buns go for a lower donation (as long as they're good homes) and at least they get their forever home and this then frees up space to rescue more or keep hold of them and risk them never finding a home. But if you let them go for a very low donation, you can't afford to vaccinate and neuter all. Don't know the answer, glad I'm not a rescue who has to make these decisions :)

Azraelm
19-09-2006, 01:21 PM
Well I will always fly the Kirby flag (even though I've never actually been there :lol: ), so I don't think it's a bad thing if they don't neuter.

I know Celia has had a lot of the buns vaccinated against vhd. It must be hard because I believe the numbers are going back up. What would of happened to the rabbits that hadn't of been took in by her isn't even worth thinking about. Some care is better than no care. The thing is Celia doesn't believe in neutering female buns anyway, so even if there was funds, morally she's against it. She does get bucks neutered so they can live with does though :D

Yes, you're right Kirby are really full at the moment. She's had absolutely loads brought in the last few weeks and rehoming has slowed down :(

And she really gives them excellent care :thumb:

SOAD
19-09-2006, 01:26 PM
yep she does, Also I think it is best for the rabs if the rescuer keeps funds back for emergency vet treatment. Rather streching above their means paying for all neuteres etc, then finding that there is no money in the pot to pay for emergency vet treatment. It's all very difficult :?

Azraelm
19-09-2006, 01:29 PM
yep she does, Also I think it is best for the rabs if the rescuer keeps funds back for emergency vet treatment. Rather streching above their means paying for all neuteres etc, then finding that there is no money in the pot to pay for emergency vet treatment. It's all very difficult :?

Defiently agree with that. Just because some rescues do not neuter or vaccinate all does not mean they cannot afford veterinary care when they are ill - some may have made that decision to hold money back for emergency cases etc.

Lynette
19-09-2006, 02:34 PM
A place in Staffordshire which is on the website only asks for a donation of £5. He wasn't sure what to say when I asked. Is this place worth avoiding? He also said that I should get a hutch and if I could do so get a run, but not to worry if I couldn't. Was quite shocked with that.

Azraelm
19-09-2006, 03:05 PM
A place in Staffordshire which is on the website only asks for a donation of £5. He wasn't sure what to say when I asked. Is this place worth avoiding? He also said that I should get a hutch and if I could do so get a run, but not to worry if I couldn't. Was quite shocked with that.

I cant vouch for the the staffordshire place, but NO it does not make it a bad rescue because they dont have a minimum donation- that is not what I was saying at all.

Lynette
19-09-2006, 05:54 PM
Re read what was said and got wrong end of stick :roll:

Just was mainly concerned about the lack of advice I was given. £5 isn't a problem I don't think as long as people are advised what they should be doing.

aliceechamberlain
21-09-2006, 07:52 PM
Hello,

I have been following this thread with interest, and I have only had time this evening to post!!

I used to help at an animal shelter which catered for all manner of species of domestic pets, rabbits included. I didn't know a great deal about bunnies but I did notice they appeared to be getting a raw deal as opposed to cats and dogs. There were a number of people working there with learning difficulties and the small furries were left to them. these people did not understand the rabbits were terrified and when they tried to escape their cuddles they used to scream with laughter. Eventually I ended up with 12 rabbits here, and they used to look to me to bring them home.

The last straw was when a family came in to adopt a dog. The staff asked if they would like a rabbit too, hutch as well. The rabbit was quite aggressive and the staff were chuckling to think it had gone.

Anyway. I now take all rabbits and guinea pigs destined for that Shelter. In return, when a rabbit is ill, I discuss this with them and if we feel it is worth a try (which so far they have always said 'yes, go ahead',) they help with the vet bill, which has run up to hundreds for one bunny, who incidently survived and has gone to a wonderful home with his sister :) :) So, it is clear that it the management did care, they just did not have the capacity to help every animal there.

I get all of my bunnies neutered, generally funds only cover one vaccination, but as I am only homing to people who get their bunnies vaccinated anyway, unless they have strong reasons for not doing so, should this really be a problem? For example, some people hate chemicals and choose to use homeopathy instead. I feel I could not deny my bunnies a special loving home because of this.

Sadly, I am unable to do home checks. I currently have 38 rabbits and 25 special needs guinea pigs in my care. I also look after my elderly parents. To be honest the stress of more journeys to home check would just be too much! Generally my adoptive parents are here for quite a while and I have found so many come out with comments in our conversations that I feel lead me to entrust a beloved rabbit(s) to them. Believe you me, if I do not feel I can trust them the small furries stay here!

I think I am trying to say a few things! Generally a rescue especially for rabbits and guinea pigs is going to be a good thing. Provided whoever is catering for the animals in their care, explains about the reasoning behind neutering and vaccinations, the social needs of the animals and is able to keep the animals at a number they can safely care for, it has got to be better than them being in Shelters where they have to compete for all the other species for care.

I know some rescues come in for stick because they are not able to provide all of the neutering etc. I feel sad for these people. They are trying their best in such difficult circumstances. I know what it is like. To and fro to the vets. Going to collect bunnies from people, otherwise what will happen to them (?). Coming away with no donation because you cannot bear to leave animals in the disgusting conditions in which you have found them. Surely it is better for these animals to go to a place of safety until they can be homed to owners who are able to pay for the necessary vet treatment?

Do all rescues know about the Rabbit Welfare Fund leaflets? I know some members are not happy with the RWA, but they are the only charity I have found who can offer some sort of specialist rabbity support to rescues.

Also, I am sure if Tamsin were to offer her guidelines to existing rescues on RR we would all be very happy to receive them. All to often you can get enmeshed and forget things that are so simple, yet so important.

Anyway. That is all I have to say!

Alice

hunnybun
22-09-2006, 07:23 AM
I started taking in buns last April, at first I only vaccinated, and as bunnies went to new homes and donations came in I was then able to castrate the boys, now I am able to castrate the boys and spay the girls. I have never done any fund raising, but take a donation if poss when bunnies come in and a set donation when bunnies go out, I have kept my head above water all this time long may it last, I don't NOT take a rabbit if a donation is not available, I take them in anyway :D

AlisonA
22-09-2006, 04:19 PM
I know some rescues come in for stick because they are not able to provide all of the neutering etc. I feel sad for these people. They are trying their best in such difficult circumstances...surely it is better for these animals to go to a place of safety until they can be homed to owners who are able to pay for the necessary vet treatment?

I agree entirely, and I know that some people just don't feel they can homecheck - the reason I made the point though is because without some kind of check, how do you know that the home the rabbit is going to, is any better than the one it has been rescued from - so that entirely defeats the point of rescuing them! I know many rescues try to get at least some kind of measure of the adopter, but I also know of rescues who happily give rabbits to whoever comes knocking at her door without any kind of checks.

aliceechamberlain
22-09-2006, 09:41 PM
Yes, I can understand your point entirely. To be honest that is one of the reasons I took on the homing from the Animal Shelter, and from what I know of the situation, sadly most large Shelters are more particular about the cats and dogs and the bunnies are at the bottom of the queue.

Luckily, so far, I have not had contact with specific rabbit and guinea pig rescues who are just glad to get rid.

I really agree it is a good idea to home check, but I do know of several situations where home checks have still not protected the animal.

Perhaps we should go down the route of one of my guinea pig rescue friends and the RSPCA where they also do follow up home checks? It is very rare I do not follow up the homing of my animals without a phone call or e mail, but I would love to be able to take on the extra work of proper home checking.

Alice

Azraelm
22-09-2006, 09:51 PM
Even RSPCA homechecking varies quite a lot between shelters (as they all are in charge of themselves)

When we adopted our cat we did not have a homecheck, or any follow ups, whilst my friend, who adopted her cat from a different branch had a homecheck and two follow ups... :?

honeybunny
23-09-2006, 09:43 AM
Just caught up and adding my bit! :D
I neuter all rabbits but at present can only afford to vacs against mxyi..hoping to add VHd in next year if funds allow. However it is part of the adoption agreement that the new owner gets the buns VHD vacs ASAP and I always discuss this when they take the bun and take the name of the vet they will use. They often ask me to recommend a vet which I'm more than happy to do.
I hand out various leaflets, some general bunny care and some more specific from the RWA.
I do homecheck. I think this is a necessity and made the decision not to pass on numbers of rescues that don't to people wanting to hand in buns after several dreadful experiences. These were people who had passed my "phone filter" and seemed like excellent pet owners...without a check they would have adopted from me. Apart from the maggots-in hutch- one, the last one I did was a couple who had told me they had "turned their garden into a rabbit village..huge hutches and large permanent runs..all sturdy and fox proof " Strangely they agreed to a check and when I turned up I was greeted by a giant and a dwarf lop in a 3ft 6" cage and another dwarf lop in a 3 ft cage..dirty water bottles, overgrown nails and cheap mix lying all over the place..when I asked why they had told me they had a "rabbit village" they said they were going to do it and the small cages were temporary...they then said they'd had 2 of the rabbits in these tiny cages for 2 years! :twisted:

So a homecheck is a must and I think it should be included on the RR list. If a rescue can't afford the time themselves ask for volunteers as I do quite often on here :D Most people on here are more than happy to help and are capable of spotting bad conditions. Even with a homecheck you can home an animal to an unsuitable owner as, sadly I recently discovered, but through checking and turning several down at this point I know I've stopped many buns going to bad situations.
I have also homechecked and told prospective adopters that they can't have a bun at present but if they are willing to change this or that then they can..and most put the advice into action and do adopt later.
I do try to get people handing in buns to make a donation but will not turn a rabbit in need away if the owners refuse. I have taken in many "at risk" bunnies.
when I started rescuing I knew it would hit my bank account and so I set a limit on the number of buns I take in and have only gone over it slightly on 3 occassions..I'm also lucky in having some wonderful people foster for me.
As has been said if you take on too many animals, then the situation can easily get out of control and the animals will suffer.
I have seen bad rescues...ones with no vet attention for sick rabbits and bredding from the rabbits, not neutering or vacs and keeping and selling gps with buns. If a rescue doesn't vacs...OR doesn't neuter Or doesn't homecheck for financial reasons..it is not necessarily a bad rescue but perhaps ought to try to find a way to do the thing it misses out.
However if a "rescue" doesn't do any of the 3 ( neuter, vacs, or homecheck) then I'm afraid I would not recommend them as a rescue.

Mr T
26-09-2006, 04:46 AM
As some of you are aware I have been involved in a charity which is being set up for rodents and rabbits alike, the actual part I am involved in is affiliates, IE rescues that want to be covered by the charity umbrella, without actually having to go through the nightmare of becoming fully registered as a charity.

On the question of one thing making a rescue bad. I think that is very unfair, up until very recently we where the only rescue which had every animal we re-homed neutered, and every bunny vaccinated for both myxi and VHD. We how ever did not and do not consider our selves any thing special. We are well aware that we could, and will improve on certain areas.
Anyway back to the point, I have started to devise a list of areas to be scored on to enable a rescue to become affiliated to the charity. Rather than doing down some ones hard work and saying they are a "bad" rescue, we score on the positive points, and we have 3 tiers of affiliation, this allows the lower scoring rescues a chance to become affiliated and to improve over time, I very much doubt any of the rescues, including us will manage the highest tier straight away, the reason why... because you would need a huge amount of space for the hutches, all animals to be neutered and vaccinated, home checks, fully documented and traceable records for all animals, financial records, suitable consistent diets, the list goes on...


So in short, no home checks don’t make a good or a bad rescue, they are part of a much bigger picture, we should not judge each rescue on a single thing, but on all aspects of the rescue, and I am sure this will not be every ones cup of tea, but it is I think the fairest way of improving things over a reasonable period.


That’s my thoughts at least

honeybunny
26-09-2006, 09:59 AM
Mr t said"So in short, no home checks don’t make a good or a bad rescue, they are part of a much bigger picture, we should not judge each rescue on a single thing, but on all aspects of the rescue, and I am sure this will not be every ones cup of tea, but it is I think the fairest way of improving things over a reasonable period."

that is actually what I was saying...not doing 1 thing from the list doesn't make you a bad rescue......not doing any of them is more questionable.
The problem is if you are not keeping records, not vacs or neutering and not homechecking, and letting the animals go for a tiny donation are you actually working for the welfare of the animals and running a rescue...or are you simply selling rabbits?! :?
My decision not to recommend rescues that don't homecheck to people handing in animals was not aimed at any particular rescue ,and I reached this decision after the many unsuitable homes I've checked as previously mentioned.