Breeder setups

Just a little discussion/debate type thing to do with bun welfare, hope this is OK to post..
Do you think that breeder setups should differ from pet setups?
Should breeder rabbits be treated differently?
I recently became aware of a breeder I 'know' using 2' x 2' wire bottomed cages for their rabbits. To me, I find this disgusting - how can a bunny exhibit natural behaviour in an environment this small? Those that manage it are obviously showing that they want to do it, and would, I'm sure, be very happy to be given the space to do it properly!
Apparently this size is the recommendation of a breeder's society that the breeder follows - funny how it's OK to keep a breeder bunny is something so small, when it's recommended for pet buns to have something more than twice the size.
Those of you who do breed (as I know we have a few), just wondering what kind of setups you have, and why? Do you treat your breeding buns differently from your pet buns?
Those who don't, what are your feelings on the subject?

You have a very good point there, I know if I ever did move into breeding (God forbid) they wouldn't be treated any different to my 'pets', genetically theres no difference so why should we treat them differently?

This is a really could topic Karly, it certainly is strange that there are more regulations for size of space for pet buns as aposed to breeding buns

Mine breeding buns are treated exactly the same as my pets, they're all in 6 ft long hutches and in 8 ft runs during the day (apart from today as it's raining)
I got my beautiful Angora doe from a breeder who kept her in a 2x2ft hutch, even her rexes where in this, it's just too small as she isn't a small rabbit. I put her in the run when we got her home (in the cat box with the door open) and she didn't know what to do with herself! Now she's like a spring lamb binkying all over.
Some breeders are complete scum, I think we should split this into responsible and non responsible breeders. Some of the brreders I've met don't even seem to like rabbits, they just like winning shows and showing off. It's sick!

I know there has been a discussion about hutch sizes on a breeders forum i go on. Their main reason for having small hutches is due to the amount they need and therefore there isnt the space for big hutches like us pet owners have. Personally id like them to have much bigger hutches than 2x2' hutches which is way too small.

I hate typical breeder setups. Who in their right mind thinks it's not cruel to keep a dutch in a 24x24 inch cage?!? With no exercise! My dwarfs would be miserable in these. In fact, my two dwarf hotot girls were originally kept in a cast-off meat breeder cage... 36x24x18. It was too small for them. I had to keep a 9 lb Palomino in that same cage for 2 weeks during a bunny run and I nearly cried. I couldn't believe that was the recommended cage size for her! :shock:

IMO if you have so many animals that you can't even give them decent sized cages then you have too many. I wish more rabbit breeders were like the majority of cat and dog breeders, where they have just a few animals and they are part of the family. But when 50 rabbits is considered a fairly small rabbitry in the show circuits you've got a problem!

I do know some breeders who treat their breeding buns like pets, and if I ever decide to get a rare breed that doesn't show up in shelters I hope I can find someone like them. I'm not anti-breeder I just don't like the typical breeders.

That's the problem, the buns are miserable but they don't care! All they want (some of them can I point out as most breeders I've bought animals from have adored their pets!) is to improve their rabbits for shows, so they don't care if they're happy or not, that's why they get the cheaper foods, don't get vaccinated and have small hutches. Most breeders would stop if there was laws to have bigger hutches. It does seem odd to me that there isn't a regulation for breeder buns but I suppose they couldn't really do anything as some breeders breed for meat in which case it would be pointless to enrich their lives.

I don't agree with the typical breeder setups I think it's very cruel to keep rabbits in such small cages! If I was a breeder I wouldn't treat them any different to other pet rabbits. I think if you want to breed animals the breeder should CARE about them, not just use them for shows to be successfull and show off, it's horrible! :roll: :evil:

raven_guest said:

It does seem odd to me that there isn't a regulation for breeder buns but I suppose they couldn't really do anything as some breeders breed for meat in which case it would be pointless to enrich their lives.

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It wouldn't be pointless to enrich their lives- there have been many studies done on enrichment for farm animals- they deserve and need stimulation.

I meant in the view of the meat breeders. People who breed for show etc should enrich their surroundings as they will be healthier and happier. A meat breeder wouldn't give a stuff as long as the animal is eating and gaining weight, if it can't move in it's cage, it won't get excercise and lose weight.

naturestee said:

IMO if you have so many animals that you can't even give them decent sized cages then you have too many.

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Yep I agree entirely! I think the space available should dictate the number of animals and not the other way round.

some breeders can be great and care about the welfare about their rabbits and their living requirements(sP) some breeders are horrible and keep them in cramped cages with full wire floors and no hock boards down, i agree aswell size depends on how many animals there are

raven_guest said:

I meant in the view of the meat breeders. People who breed for show etc should enrich their surroundings as they will be healthier and happier. A meat breeder wouldn't give a stuff as long as the animal is eating and gaining weight, if it can't move in it's cage, it won't get excercise and lose weight.

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Meat breeders should still enrich their environment. Just because the rabbit will end up on a plate does not mean that they shouldn't have a good quality of life before they are killed. The quality of the meat is better if the animal has had exercise, as it's muscle that we eat, not fat.

I'd like to add that I don't feel comfortable eating rabbit, but if this sort of thing will happen then the regulatioms should at least be in place to ensure they have a good life before they are killed.

AMETHYST

I am thinking about breeding twinkle when she is oldernough and i have my own flat but she will be treated excatly the same as she is now or if i never breed her i would like her to just have one litter and i would probably keep them all

I am planning on getting a stud buck for her as I would like to show the babies like i used to my Dutch rabbits years ago

If you are going to show the babies you need to get rings for them. You'll also need to make sure they're pure bred and that dad is the same colour as mum (though I'm sure you know that already if you used to show)
I breed, very spoilt rabbits lol! The sad thing is, they're so spoilt here, the babies can only ever be disappointed by the homes they go to (apart from the fact that they'll get more attention obviously as I have more buns to give attention to)

I'm not saying meat rabbits shouldn't have enriching environments, I'm saying a meat breeder will view it as pointless, why the hell would they care? They make no effort, they get money for the meat. From their view it's a waste of money. I don't agree with it at all, but then I don't agree with rabbits for meat. (I don't really like the thought of any animals for meat)

Actually, I do know a few people that breed for both meat and show, and their designated meat rabbits still get some playtime (not as much as they should but better than the typical none) and toys in the cage. I've also seen that happen more with 4H kids who are breeding meat rabbits.

4H is a kids organization where they learn to do new things and often do projects for competition. The projects range from photography and cooking to breeding and showing animals, and there are special 4H animal shows. My husband bred New Zealand Whites for meat and show as a kid, and from the sounds of it they were taken out to play, etc.

I couldn't do it, but I didn't grow up on a farm. Lots of farm kids that I knew played with and took good care of their animals, even if they were destined for slaughter.

Of course, the cages were still the typical "recommended" breeder cages. :?

i breed mini lops and have pets too... all my rabbits have 5-6 square ft hutches (except my giant whos is 10) and they are out of the hutches for about 4 hours + a day, so hutches are just really for sleeping/eating and feeling safe... i will not rehome a mini lop to anyone who wants to keep it in a hutch that has more than 6 sq foot floor space, as they get scare, feel exposed and become vicious... if the hutch is bigger i always suggest creating a smaller 'hide' away in it.

all my rabbits have natural toys and stuff to play with.

as far as the differences go the show rabbits have a much stricter diet than the pets... lots more hay and very little mix... greens are measured and given sparingly... they also get different exerise... they're not allowed on the grass if its been raining (white feet quickly become green) so they get runs either on the patio or on the shed floor. And some colours... such as the chocolate aren't allowed out in direct sun as it turns the coat orange... so they get exerice either inside or later on when its dusk.

i hate wire bottom cages... which are mainly used in the states and for longhaired rabbits... it stops them eating their poos which can only be a bad thing... but i also think longhaired rabbits are cruel... so thats just me.

Why do show rabbits get ringed?

My rescue rabbit had a ring on her (now has been removed when she got spayed), what is the purpose of it? i actually think that is very cruel - no offence to those who ring their buns!

a ring on the rabbits leg has an identification number on it... it can be traced back to the owner... its no different to ringing birds or id tags on dogs... as long as the rabbit isnt over fed (which is cruel in itself) it causes them no harm... its better than tatooing in my opinion which is the alternative. most breeders dont ring rabbits intended as pets as most pets end up overweight.

They have several sizes for the different breeds, it's not cruel unless the wrong size is fitted as it really doesn't bother them at all, mine that have them don't even seem to notice.