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mutant VHD????? - your thoughts

I just wondered if it is possible that the VHD virus can mutate. :?

As you know Phill lost Ivy recently to VHD :(however Ivy was vaccinated at the time of the horrible VHD outbreak that saw poor Phill loose 10 of her babies :(

However what I am concerned about is that was in June and as we are now in October it would mean the virus lay dormant in Ivy's system for four months :shock: :shock: I am now wondering if it is possible for the virus to mutate so that the vaccination is no longer effective.

Having worked in the vaccine industry for the flu vaccine I know that each year the flu vaccine (for humans) is altered to cope with the main flu strain that year (it changes annually) and I am now thinking that this is perhaps why Ivy was struck down - perhaps the VHD which caused Phill such heartache was so virulant that it was able to mutate. :shock:

Basically if this is the case then it would render vaccines useless as if it is able to kill a bunny four months after having been vaccinatd then it poses the qustion how long can it lie dormant in the rabbits system before striking - the alternative is that it has not lain dormant and that it is simply a new strain? :?

I would be interested in knowing what others think - this is just my wonderings - I am maybe totally off beam here :wink:

lol Pam
 
I don't know enough advanced science stuff to answer that. I would think though that with the background of having VHD outbreak before it's more likely to relate to that than a mutation.

No vaccine is 100% effective. It realies on a response from the immune system so if a bun is under the weather it might not be effective.

As VHD remains around for months afterwards then I'd have thought that is the most likely cause.

Tam
 
At the time of the VHD outbreak at Phill's I know that the RWA were asked for their opinions on the vaccine and after speaking to specialists they were told that the VHD vaccine is 100% effective.

This would tally with the fact that vets are happy to allow a rabbit to go into a VHD area as long as they have been vaccinated - when they will not allow a rabbit that has had the myxy vacc to go into a similar situation as it is known that the myxi vacc is not 100%.

If this is the case then surely in this case the VHD strain must have mutated - either that or the vet did not adminsiter the vaccine properly and therefore rendered it ineffective. I understand that to be effective the vaccination has to be done in a certain way.

lol Pam
 
Kim, I'm glad you brought this up and starts a new topic too. I was thinking that it happened to Phill twice. Now, if it is not a coincidence, then:

There may be some spots in her garden that has been a "ground zero" spot for VHD, for e.g., some wet & moist spot, say under a big piece of rock that contains gaps at the bottom of the rock. My very first house used to have a very large piece of rock, and it's uneven at the bottom (not 100% flat), one day we lift up the rock, and turn out those spots are wet due to rain, and has insects hiding over there.

I am not saying the above spot must generates VHD, I'm just giving an example of a wet & moist spot.

Or some spot in her garden that may has mold that may generates disease and somehow that spot was missed.

Or simply some part of the garden may has bacteria that the rabbit caught it (that's how my last rabbit got some bacteria thru his penis in contact w/ the soil at a certain spot in the garden)

Or some insect carry the disease, and somehow made in contact w/ the rabbit. (that's why I killed spider in my garden, and any insect I can kill)

Or some part outside her house (her neighbour) has the bacteria spot, and somehow the rabbit sneak out and make contact w/ that spot.

Or some part of the house that may contain bacteria, and the rabbit may contact w/ it.

Quite frankly, each time I lost my rabbit, I start 2nd guessing myself, I always thought because I'm too lazy to clean the house,and didn't clean it regularly, some spot in my house contains dust and dirt and generates diseases. In a small way, I'm relief that was not the cause of the death of my last 2 rabbits that passed away.

Regardless, it did make me take better cleaning of my house and it makes myself and my current bunny a better living environment.

Anyhoo, I never truthfully believe in vaccine, because they react differently to every person. I had flu shot one year, and I still get sick that year, I rather believe in prevention than vaccination. So w/ Ivy had the vaccine, even if the above spots do remotely occur, it shouldn't matter.

And yet, thru experience in my life, I have learned that what "Shouldn't" happen, is very different than what "didn't" happen.
 
I'm way out of my depth here but...

Maybe the disease VHD is starting to become resistant to the vaccine?

I know with horse worms you have to change the brand of wormer regularly to stop them becoming resistant, similar with fleas. There has been talk this year that Frontline isn't effective as it once was as there have been cases of Cats getting flea infestations even through they where religiously treated with Frontline. In these cases changing to Stronghold or Advantage flea treatment solved the problem.

I know fleas/worms are totally different to these diseases but I just wanted to illustrate my point.

On another forum last (or early this year) there was a discussion that possibly the Mxyie vaccine wasn’t effective as it once was as a lot more Rabbits seem to be getting Mxyie when they where already vaccinated.

I’ve heard of two Rabbits this week showing early signs of Mxyie and they are both vaccinated against the disease. :(

Louise
 
Our vets think that it is to do with the way Ivy's vaccine was given her and her siblings could only have a half dose when we first had it and then another dose 4 weeks later. Hazel suspects that ivy had already caught the VHD in June and that menat the vaccine that she had could not develop properly. I don't know how fesable that is as i am not a vet nor a scientist. I did wonder myself wether the Virus had mutated but i don't know how it could have???
 
hi

As far as I know, vaccines are just meant to give the body a 'trial run' of a certain disease, so that the immune system can form antibodies to destroy that type of virus if it catches the real thing in future. So I thought that even if Ivy had VHD in the first outbreak, she would have had to form antibodies to it in order to survive? So being vaccd as well wouldn't do any harm? I'm not an expert on vaccines - but it does sound as if the VHD maybe was suppressed for a few months but then overwhelmed her system for some reason - Maybe because she had another health problem weakening her immune system, or maybe because it mutated to a slightly different form of VHD which her body hadn't met before?
 
OK this is just a thought, but maybe Phills vet injected it wrong, that's why she died. The VHD is still dormant isn't it in soil and stuff? Maybe he said this to cover his own back? As if the vaccine is 100% safe, maybe he's in the wrong and concocted the story to cover himself from liability?
 
hi

I know 10% of the myxi vac has to go into the skin instead of under it, but the VHD vac is just a straight in jab isn't it?
 
The VHD vaccine is just given sub cut ther eis no special way to administer it like with Myxi. My vet has confirmed that Ivy's immune system was probably not fully developed when she had the vaccine (she was the runt) which has meant thath she has not developed a full immunity to it the other rabbits will be fine and they are fine.
 
I have held off entering this debate cos I dont want to distress poor Phill. But it is just not possible for a rabbit to 'harbor VHD' for months and then become over-whelmed by it. The only way to be CERTAIN Ivy was a victim of VHD would be a post mortem examination. Did this take place?? If not I really doubt that Ivy's death was due to VHD. Symptoms of this EVIL disease are often not seen as we all know a bun is likely to die within hours of contracting it. What exactly were Ivy's symptoms? I am very, very sorry if any of this upsets Phill. I just cannot understand how a vet can say that the VHD vaccine 'held the disease at bay'. It just doesn't work like that. Rest in peace little Ivy, have fun with all our beloved rabbits who have gone over the bridge to bunny heaven. JCO
 
Phill said:
The VHD vaccine is just given sub cut ther eis no special way to administer it like with Myxi. My vet has confirmed that Ivy's immune system was probably not fully developed when she had the vaccine (she was the runt) which has meant thath she has not developed a full immunity to it the other rabbits will be fine and they are fine.

Yeah JCO makes a good point, are sure it's VHD, if she was the runt, maybe it was just her time to go?
 
JCO said:
I have held off entering this debate cos I dont want to distress poor Phill. But it is just not possible for a rabbit to 'harbor VHD' for months and then become over-whelmed by it. The only way to be CERTAIN Ivy was a victim of VHD would be a post mortem examination. Did this take place?? If not I really doubt that Ivy's death was due to VHD. Symptoms of this EVIL disease are often not seen as we all know a bun is likely to die within hours of contracting it. What exactly were Ivy's symptoms? I am very, very sorry if any of this upsets Phill. I just cannot understand how a vet can say that the VHD vaccine 'held the disease at bay'. It just doesn't work like that. Rest in peace little Ivy, have fun with all our beloved rabbits who have gone over the bridge to bunny heaven. JCO

Yes a PM was done and it was VHD
 
I would say everthing mutates eventually, its part of evolution :wink: So many vaccines, both animal and human are updated every so often due to the fact that things become resiliant (sp) to the vaccine and treatments :(

take headlice for example (scratch, scratch, scaratch :lol: :lol: )over the years I have seen many new products come out for the treatment of head lice due to the fact the little blitters become resilient to it :roll: :roll:

The MMR vaccine for children had a big debate, we had an out break of mumps in our area last year despite being vaccinated and my neighbour had TB (again she was vaccinated against it) but they have put it down to people not vaccinating against it which has brought the disease back, so has the disease come back in a stronger form I ask myself :?
 
will be speaking with the Vet Advisor for Cylap vaccine (VHD vaccine) on Thursday. Will interogate him to see if I can find out anything useful....... Will only use the thumb-screws if absolutely necessary!!! JCO
 
JCO said:
will be speaking with the Vet Advisor for Cylap vaccine (VHD vaccine) on Thursday. Will interogate him to see if I can find out anything useful....... Will only use the thumb-screws if absolutely necessary!!! JCO

Are you a vet?
 
No, I have a 'Rabbit Refuge' with 32 special needs buns in residence. I spoke with the Vet Advisor for Cylap a couple of months back and he said to contact him again if I needed any more info/advice. Phoned him this afternoon as I am getting so confused with all the VHD data. He is not in the office 'til Thursday so his assistant said she'd get him to give me a call. I know he could be thought to have a vested interest in selling the vaccine but ....... JCO
 
Vaccines rely on the immune response from the person that has received the vaccine. So I think saying it's 100% is probably not entirely true.

They also run out and need booster and I imagine the period they are effective could also be influenced by various things.

As there has been a confirmed VHD in the area the bug will still be around. So if for what ever reason the vaccine was no longer effective then the rabbit would catch it.

It will me interesting to she what the manufacturer has to say :)

Tam
 
The way any vaccine works is that you must be healthy before the injection of that vaccine. For e.g., if you have a flu, you can't inject flu shot afterwards, to kill that particular flu, it's useless. Although after the person heal from the flu, the flu shot should be useful for any future flu of the same type.

So if Ivy was sick w/ VHD before the vaccine was injected, then the vaccine won't work, but if Ivy was sick w/ VHD all the way back then, then as someone else had said above, there is no way the disease would stick around for this long.

http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/gray_book/FAD/vhd.htm

I found the above link, it's very detail, but there is nothing mentioned in the link that we haven't talk about here.
 
Oh please keep us posted about what the rep says tomorow - it will be interesting to know their take :D

I am also e-mailing the Bristol Rabbit Clinic with this topic and will let youknow what they say - hopefully this wil sort everything out :D

lol Pam
 
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