to spay or not to spay?

elve · Jul 22, 2005

Having taken on these 5 does, all unspayed, I wonder if anyone can give me the benefit of their experience on this (I've only had rabbits 4 months)

The lady at the rescue I adopted them from was horrified when I said I would get them all spayed ASAP :?
She said that if they don't have a behavioral problem caused by hormones, and aren't at risk of pregnancy, then in her experience unspayed females live longer than spayed - in spite of the cancer statistics - she believes that too many bouts of anaesthesia damage the rabbit's liver over time, and that spayed females tended to live about 5 years only (don't panic anyone - this is just her opinion)

Has anyone got any older females that have been spayed - or is she right about this? My girls seem perfectly happy with each other at the mo - bit of chasing but nothing major (my neutered boys were as bad sometimes) - they're not yet aggressive to me, and they've litter trained themselves in 2 days, so I can't see any urgent need to spay them - apart from the cancer statistic...But if that is outweighed by the 'early deaths in spayed females' statistic - what's the point?

Please - anyone with spayed does that are long-lived out there? :?

Mikeymoo · Jul 22, 2005

This is what Adele PM'd me

Hiya, I am writing one general PM to everyone who asked me why we do not spay the Sanctuary bunnies.
Firstly we DO neuter all the Bucks, as this is a less invasive operation.
I have worked with bunnies for over 30 years now, and during this time observed much, from behavioural to how they cope with surgery at the vets etc.
Rabbits are not like cats and dogs, having a heightened nervous system as pray animals.
This means that they succumb much more readily to any stress, or changes (ie going through surgery).
I have made a personal choice not to submit Does to major surgery but instead ensure they have a good diet, plenty of exercise and treat symptoms of hormonal upsets with homeopathy and natural oils (like lavender to calm and relax).
Rabbits that are hormonally upset can be helped immensely by alternative means as above, and after 2 years of age the hormones naturally dip so things settle down in 90% of most bunnies. The 10% that dont are usually the bunnies with behavioural (fear induced aggression) as opposed to hormonally induced aggession.
We have cared for over 500 bunnies over the years and only lost two Uterine Cancer, but they were both 5 plus.
We have had more deaths from gut statis than any other cause, stress of going to the Vets or surgery being the biggest cause.

I understand that the RWA is pushing to get all Does spayed, but perhaps their reasons are also based on the numbers of bunnies that end up at rescues, so it can be politically motivated by social situations (ie we all know that their are too many bunnies being bred still...which end up at Rescues or in my Sanctuary!! ).
I feel the balance has gone a bit too far, and although I support that SOME bunnies should be spayed (based upon an individual vets recommendation0 I certainly fdo not support that it shoud be routine.
The Cancer prevention aspect is a good and valid point, but if the average age of a bunny getting Cancer is 5 then this is a life expectancy of a rabbit anyway. It is like humans having wombs removed in their late teens incase they get Cancer at 60.
We know as you get older the Cancer risk increase.
There are exceptions to the rule and younger bunnies can get uterine Cancer too.
I am more concerned about Stomach Cancer which is the most common Cancer .
so, rigthtly or wrongly, I support the bunnies all we can naturally all their lives, and of course they have surgery if necessary..but if a bunny does get Cancer, then unlike humans we do have the option to free them of their misery by euthanasia.
I feel that it is not how long a life is that matters, but the quality of that life that counts, so by choice, I choose not to put Does through major invasive surgery.
I am not saying everyone should follow my lead, or anyone elses, you have to draw your own conclusions.
It is a difficult subject as I can see lots of reasons TO spay bunnies but my gut instinct tells me that it is not the right way for me.
I think if you could come and see the Sanctuary bunnies ,most of whom are 5 plus, you would see just how much they are loved and i dedicate my life to their welfare.
I have to make decisions on what I have personally experienced though, as I cannot ignore what I have learned from hands on rabbit care over the 30 years.

Gem · Jul 22, 2005

That makes a lot of sense, I've been critised for not having all my females done as soon as they are old enough.

As Adele has said its a matter of personal choice, obviously if you have aggressive females then it probably is best to get her done, but if she's happy and healthy in herself and your bucks are done, I don't see a reason to spay.

I've personally had almost all mine done as I want them to live in a large group of 13 and some of my females really don't get on.

elve · Jul 22, 2005

hi

Oh that's really interesting - thanks Lindsey (and Adele

)

I jumped right on the spaying bandwagon initially when I started with rabbits - I'm really not so sure now - hope I make the right decision :?

Phill · Jul 22, 2005

I have a total of 13 does and only 2 are spayed! They live quite happily in there groups and i've never had any problems, saying that my oldest unspayed girl is only 3.

Karly · Jul 22, 2005

One interesting thing is that in rats, females are quite prone to getting mammary tumours. In America, I know they often spay young females to reduce the chances, but over here it's seen as an invasive operation that should only really be done when necessary, e.g. in the case of a womb infection that won't clear up with antibiotics.
But then with larger animals like cats and dogs it's done quite routinely.
Just makes you wonder how you decide which animal is more suitable for routine neuters and spays and which aren't

donna-arc · Jul 22, 2005

I thought I'd put forward our point of view as pro-spaying. (I have said this before so for those that have read it before - sorry!)

Our vet wasn't very keen on routine spays, thinking it unnecessary. When we asked her to spay all the females that come into our rescue it didn't take her long to change her mind. EVERY SINGLE female over the age of 4 had the start of uterine cancer. She even found it in 2 year olds.

Because we home hundreds of rabbits she has had the benefit of seeing more rabbit wombs than most! - she thinks most vets don't realise the scale of the problem because they don't spay as many rabbits as she does.
She also thinks a lot of unexplained deaths are caused by uterine cancer (there are not always noticable symptoms).

We have lost 4 does during spaying and all of these had an undetected health problem eg enlarged heart or diseased lungs (as I say this is 4 out of many hundreds).

We can't compare humans to rabbits - they are designed to have lots of babies and be eaten by the time they are two. We are not. The reproductive system of rabbits is saturated with hormones (far more than we have) a body can't take this without problems.

I've also seen people say that a breeding rabbit is not so likely to get cancer - this is not true as we have taken lots of ex-breeding rabbits and they've all had it too.

Many rabbits are dying or suffering from pyometra or cancer unnecessarily. I see them at our surgery all the time. It's so sad to think that they didn't have to suffer this.
Most on here seem to vaccinate. We do this to prevent our rabbits from dying from something we could have prevented. It's the same with spaying.

Nix · Jul 22, 2005

The non-spay argument winds me up because it seems like people think pro-spayers make the figures (and their experiences) up.

Rescues that routinely spay generally seem to have the same opinion as Donna at ARC. Both Lorna at Greenfields and Sue at Bracknell Rabbit Resuce are very pro-spaying because, like Donna, they see the lurking cancers that otherwise may not be picked up on until the rabbit's mysterious death. People who don't spay never get to see what's going on in there unless they have reason to suspect that they have uterine cancer (which even in people is called the "silent killer").

As for longevity, Lorna has a pair of 7 yr old spayed girls who have no health problems looking for a home. Sue often takes on any older (6+) girls that come in as permanent residents. In contrast, she had an unspayed doe who is 2 come in - when she was spayed, cancer was found; they now suspect it had spread to her liver already and she hasn't got long left.

If you can honestly say that you will feel no guilt about not spaying if your rabbit is diagnosed with uterine cancer, then go ahead and don't do it.

We all know that rabbits, as prey animals, are very good at hiding their pain - just because they seem ok doesn't necessarily mean that their quality of life is good. My personal feeling is that, if I were a rabbit, I would much rather have the short term pain of a spay than the long-term agony of cancer.

HS · Jul 22, 2005

The first bunnies I had were Flopsy and Patch, both girls. I had them both spayed, mainly for behavioural reasons. Flopsy died aged 18 months, from gut stasis. Unfortunately I wasn't experienced enough with rabbits to recognise the symptoms in time

. Patch died last year, aged 4, from osteomylitis. It seems that neither reached the age where cancer would have been a problem.
Nougat is a rescue bunny, I've had her for 6 months now, and am still debating whether or not to get her spayed. Am reading these posts with interest, but am rather confused!

donna-arc · Jul 22, 2005

Hi Helen, just because we spay our does doesn't mean they won't still die of something else before the age that cancer might have set in. It's like saying I won't stop smoking because I might get hit by a bus anyway. You simply reduce all the risks you possibly can.

If you do decide to get Nougat spayed one of the most important things to consider is that she's not overweight. Anaesthetics get absorbed into the fat and take longer to clear from the body making recovery more difficult.x

sgprescue · Jul 22, 2005

I have to agree with Donna and Nix point of views on this one. I am very much pro-spaying and get all bunnies neutered before they are rehomed. When I first started the rescue I only did the boys, then one of my own precious buns got uterine cancer and it made me think differently. After that, the next 2 females that came in were taken to be spayed straight away, they both had extensive cancer in the uterus and it had spread to other areas

. They may not present external symptoms of uterine cancer so you may never know until it is too late.

Cheryl

elve · Jul 22, 2005

hi

Thanks for all the input on this - it's a bit controversial isn't it? I guess there's pros and cons to any medical intervention, even vaccination - but the majority seems to believe in spaying, so I guess that's something I'll do in the next year, after they've settled in - I can't even get near enough to touch them at the moment

HS · Jul 23, 2005

donna-arc said:
Hi Helen, just because we spay our does doesn't mean they won't still die of something else before the age that cancer might have set in. It's like saying I won't stop smoking because I might get hit by a bus anyway. You simply reduce all the risks you possibly can.

Thanks. They're the first two rabbits I've had, and I'm pleased I got them spayed because they were much happier afterwards. I loved them both so much I suppose I'm still a little sore that I lost them so soon.

If you do decide to get Nougat spayed one of the most important things to consider is that she's not overweight. Anaesthetics get absorbed into the fat and take longer to clear from the body making recovery more difficult.x

You've seen the picture of Nougs in my sig then?

She was a little fatso when she arrived withe me, but 6 months down the line and a proper diet, and she's looking much more streamlined. It's an important point to consider though. They're going to the vets next week for their jabs, so I'll ask what he thinks.

Tamsin · Jul 23, 2005

It would be nice if the rescues that handle alot of bunnies and get all the females spayed could gather the stats on age and whether had signs of cancer and combine them to produce some statistics.

The current figures used of 80% were done nearly 50 years ago and on a colony (so presemably related rabbits) hense I think the figures get disputed a little.

If what rescues know where put down in hard stats it might help people to know what to believe.

Tam

janice · Jul 23, 2005

The figures could also include whether rabbits have previoulsy had a litter (if known) as that is another area where there is debate.

Janice

Tamsin · Jul 23, 2005

Yep, that's an idea.

Perhaps the rescues who do spay could talk to their vets about putting the stats together. It would be good to have the vets confirm the numbers are accurate as it gives it more credit. Work for the vets though so they might not have time to help.

Age (in months)
Cancer found: yes/no (maybe stage?)
previously had litter: yes/no

Tam

janice · Jul 23, 2005

I am pretty sure our vet would be happy to help with something like this. I will have a word with her when I get back from my week away, unless Donna can talk to her in the meanwhile .... DONNA .... are you going to the vets next week?? :lol: I can sort a form when I get back if you want.

Janice

Tamsin · Jul 23, 2005

That would be great, I'm sure alot of people would be interested in the results.

Tam

bunnytales · Jul 23, 2005

I personally always have a mixed view on this subject really but I feel taking the Cancer issue aside for a mo my personal view is that its certainly imperative that Rescues Spay as routine, there are already many instances of unwanted bunny pregancies which add to the increasing amount of bunnies which end up unwanted and in rescue.

Very often when folks take on Pet Store bunnies and the bunny hits the terrible teens - this can very often be the start of the downward spiral where folks cannot cope as there once loveable bunny now has a completely different personality and I think although there will always be the exception in the majority of cases spaying will help result in a calmer bunny.

However turning to my other view point - I think the choice is slightly different for spaying for bunny specialist folks (if I can call all us mad bunny folks that :lol: :lol: ) who are responsbile folk and know if its absolutely deemed necessary to spay/castrate, say due to hormonal/behavorial problems or to enable bonding.

I think the senario is different again for bunnies kept in an experienced Sancturary situation in which bunnies are normally kept for life, this for me would mean bunnies would only be spaying on the risk of cancer which then is down to a completely personal choice.

So I guess as you good folks have already said this clearly is never going to be an issue in which you can give clear guidelines but one where lots of consideration needs to be given to the specific senario.

Sorry this reply has'nt related too much to the cancer side of spaying - I think as mentioned here it would be interesting to see some stats for a more informed choice.

Nix · Jul 23, 2005

Tamsin said:
Yep, that's an idea.

Perhaps the rescues who do spay could talk to their vets about putting the stats together. It would be good to have the vets confirm the numbers are accurate as it gives it more credit. Work for the vets though so they might not have time to help.

Age (in months)
Cancer found: yes/no (maybe stage?)
previously had litter: yes/no

Tam

Brilliant idea! I wonder if it would be worth doing a survery style one? Not all rescues might be able to take the time out to answer but I'd be really interested in more recent stats.

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