In-breeding

[Denny]

Having read Tracy's sad loss of Pickle and Cheryl's reply of 'they were badly inbred' I am interested to know what effects inbreeding has, and how, if there are any signs without knowing the buns family history/back ground. Not knowing the in's and outs of breeding I am also interested if they are bred further down their ancestry line that can cause health issues too. What is the closeness in which a rabbit is bred ie: father and daughter :?: how far apart is the buns family line before a family history tree is used :?:

Another stupid question is, I understand some buns being crosses but what exactly does pure bred mean and why do certain people use this term :?: surely if you are a dwarf lop, you are a dwarf lop (parents being both dwarfs) but what does a pure bred dwarf lop mean :?:

Not sure if I have put this in the right section Tamsin so feel free to move it if it is :wink:

[bunnyhuggger]

the in's and outs of breeding http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage29/10.gifhttp://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage26/2.gif

ok, so I know I wasn't helpful, but I had to laugh :roll:

[BinkyBun]

:lol: :lol:

[Towsbuns]

Trust you Lynda :lol: :lol:
I don't know the answers but often wonder whether this is the reason that alot of 'farmed' pets for the pet shop trade don't tend to live as long as they should.
Do show rabbits have pedigrees as dogs do? Do you have proof of their parentage etc.

[Rexy bexy]

ok u can breed father to daughter, mother to son ect but u get the deformaties when u breed sister and brother together, you get the deformaites when the genes r the same so u can breed 1/2 bro and 1/2 sis together but not too often, that is only like a one off thing as u dont want to blood being to closly realted but but thay say breeding relations together u get good blood but just not too close.
becky

[luvabun]

Father to daughter and Mother to son? I find that quite disturbing... surely the gene pool is the same and therefore poses potential for problems :?:

[Denny]

the in's and outs of breeding http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage29/10.gifhttp://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage26/2.gif

ok, so I know I wasn't helpful, but I had to laugh :roll:

:shock: :shock: Lynda you naughty minky :lol: :lol: you have a one track mind :lol: :lol: Is Jim feeding you ging seng without you knowing it by any chance :wink: with all that rescue remedy too you must be really laid back by now :wink: :lol: :lol:

I will come back to the topic though as I have got to go and tidy up :roll: get everything ready so I can ogle over Robson Green later :wink: now I would'nt mind getting to know the in's and outs of him Lynda :wink: :D

[Denny]

are you sure that is ok Becky as I too would of thought father and daughter, mother and son would have still been a high risk :?: I thought that the closest member of families that could breed were cousins :?: :?

what sort of deformaties do you get with a litter produced from a brother and sister line :?:

I was wondering what all these health issues were that were caused from inter-breeding

[Kerri C]

the in's and outs of breeding http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage29/10.gifhttp://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage26/2.gif

ok, so I know I wasn't helpful, but I had to laugh :roll:

:shock: :shock: Lynda you naughty minky :lol: :lol: you have a one track mind :lol: :lol: Is Jim feeding you ging seng without you knowing it by any chance :wink: with all that rescue remedy too you must be really laid back by now :wink: :lol: :lol:

I will come back to the topic though as I have got to go and tidy up :roll: get everything ready so I can ogle over Robson Green later :wink: now I would'nt mind getting to know the in's and outs of him Lynda :wink: :D

OOH my goodness :shock: - you bunch of strumpets!! :lol: :lol: :lol: he is a bit yummy though isnt he!! (especially when he was in soldier soldier!!) :lol:

[Denny]

the in's and outs of breeding http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage29/10.gifhttp://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage26/2.gif

ok, so I know I wasn't helpful, but I had to laugh :roll:

:shock: :shock: Lynda you naughty minky :lol: :lol: you have a one track mind :lol: :lol: Is Jim feeding you ging seng without you knowing it by any chance :wink: with all that rescue remedy too you must be really laid back by now :wink: :lol: :lol:

I will come back to the topic though as I have got to go and tidy up :roll: get everything ready so I can ogle over Robson Green later :wink: now I would'nt mind getting to know the in's and outs of him Lynda :wink: :D

OOH my goodness :shock: - you bunch of strumpets!! :lol: :lol: :lol: he is a bit yummy though isnt he!! (especially when he was in soldier soldier!!) :lol:

Ooooh a fellow Robson fancier :thumb: :D :D got one eye on Robson and the other on the pc screen at the moment :wink: :lol:

[Kerri C]

I know, me and my friend used to fight over robson and jerome in soldier soldier, cos we thought they were both lovely - but then we decided jeromes chin was a bit too big, and preferred robson!! Im quite partial to a bit of steve off shameless too!! (has anyone ever seen it!!? It is so funny. Steve has left now though :cry: :cry: - but it supposed to be back on tomorrows episode - yey!! I dont like the fact he plays a bad-lad - but theres just something about him!! :shock: My husband only likes about 2 girls off the telly, bit I always go "i like him...and him...oh and him...and him...and him...." :lol: :lol:

[rabshan]

OOOHHHHH....never mind poofy actors give me a jockey anytime..that gorgeous richard johnson with the great BUM make sme go weak at the knees. Something about a guy in johdpurs AAHHH mr.darcy you shouldn,t...well oh! go on then. YES YES YES censored now.

[Kerri C]

OOOHHHHH....never mind poofy actors give me a jockey anytime..that gorgeous richard johnson with the great BUM make sme go weak at the knees. Something about a guy in johdpurs AAHHH mr.darcy you shouldn,t...well oh! go on then. YES YES YES censored now.

OOOOOOHHH NO!! Its wrong!! Men in jodphurs is wrong!! I used to go horse-riding when I was younger, and there used to be this big clot of a bloke on my lesson, and the sight of him in jodphurs made me feel ill!! Think its put me off since!!

Its like seeing a male ballet dancer - who wants to see their "essentials" swinging around in a pair of lycra tights!! - I dont!! (p.s your reply really made me laugh by the way!! :lol: :lol: :lol: )!!

My cousin comes round sometimes to say hi to my husband, as he was best man at our wedding, and he cycles to our house wearing these tight jogging bottoms that gradually taper in so they are like drain-pipes at the bottom, and they've got this big padded bum on them - that is all so wrong!! :shock:

P.p s - I still cant stop laughing at your reply!!! Im crying with laughter! :lol:

[Rexy bexy]

are you sure that is ok Becky as I too would of thought father and daughter, mother and son would have still been a high risk :?: I thought that the closest member of families that could breed were cousins :?: :?

what sort of deformaties do you get with a litter produced from a brother and sister line :?:

I was wondering what all these health issues were that were caused from inter-breeding

yes im positive mother to son and father to daughter is fine, most breeders breed like this getting better quality rabbits. I know in hamsters u cant m8 relations at all. u get the deformaites when the genes r exactly the same like in brother and sister. im not sure exactly what kind of deformaties they get but i think it can be any thing like spine and leg deformaties, i know a friend of mine whos doe had babies but they had to be PTS as the buck that escaped was her brother
becky

[Tamsin]

I think mother-son and father-daughter are fairly commonly done in alot of animal breeding including dogs/cat etc as well. Though it should only be done if you've researched in throughly and got lots of advice so you know what your doing and know the pedigree of the animals.

In the wildgroups can be quite similar genetically.

There is no official pedigrees for bunnies like with dogs. Through some breeders keep them. I guess official pedigree would be one that is registered with the BRC and rung like a dog registered with the kennel club. But it can still be a pure breed and not registered as a pedigree.

Regonised breed & cross breed might be better terms. A regonised breed being one that follows breed standard and a cross a muddle between a couple of breeds.

That would be my interpretation anyway, the breeders amougst us might have a different one :D

Tam

[rabshan]

Hi kerry...what you were saying about male ballet dancers in their tights with their "bits" on display...thats so the female dancers have something to stand on when they leap into the air. I used to have a horse so think I am biased to wards riders also keen on athletes (love those muscley fit bodies) all I am getting all exccited now better go for a shower to calm down.

[Bunnyboarding]

Hi all,

Father-to-daughter & Mother-to-son breeding is also known as Linebreeding.

This is an accepted practice in the rabbit world, IF it is done once before putting the resultant offspring back out to a lesser related rabbit to prevent too closely inbred problems which can arise from this method of breeding if used incorrectly or with any rabbit that is used that has genetic problems.

Linebreeding is used primarily to FIX a desired quality that two related individuals may have that the owner would like to re create.

As has been said, however, Linebreeding also FIXES bad traits as much as the good ones....which is why it must only be done by somebody who is experienced enough to know that the two related adults put together do not have any genetic impediments that would be passes out into the young (which would obviously be irresponsible if it were the case!).

Bear in mind that if any responsible show breeder is doing this they hopefully would have a good idea of the background/parentage of their rabbits & so in a more knowledgable position to do so.

NO rabbit would or should be used (by a responsible breeder) that posesses any potential genetic condition in ANY part of the breeding programme. Sad or not, if any are found to have these problems they are eliminated from the general picture, more often than not culled, so that those with the problem cannot be replicated elsewhere with the lack of knowledge there unfortunately is of rabbits.

If we are talking more in terms of the pet trade breeder, however, the motives & outcomes are very different.

Because maximum production is of great importance, it is of little concern to the owner if the rabbits are left to run in colonies, with mating occurring at random between different rabbits usually littermates & post-partum matings (back-to-back breeding) which means they are continually pregnant whilst already suckling their existing young.

Yes this produces weaker babies, but it also produces MORE babies this way, which is obviously no big deal to traders who have need to supply small, but cute & young-looking babies in large quantity. They don't need to sit in the pet shop too long usually before the customer pays their money & takes the chance as to how far down the line they will actually get! :shock:

(Also as they often accomodate large numbers in smaller spaces or running together, stress-related diseases such as Pasteurella runs rife)

Often these traders will buy up stock from markets & any place where they will not have to pay much....they do not know the background of these rabbits, nor do they really care!. All it takes is one rabbit with the gene for malocclusion (one example) & you have a whole breeding programme full of 'em after several generations. Hence what we see at pet shops.

(what happens then? when Joe Bloggs goes to the pet store that have the baby rabbits produced by the above scenario & buys a pair of rabbits thought to be same sex but actually turns out to be boy/girl, after having an accidental litter or two & the babies are carrying the genes for malocclusion, etc??the problem continues.....)

As far as breeding is concerned, the ONLY breeding IMO, that should be commended is for the betterment & enrichment of a breed, say in an exhibition scenario, where there are standards to follow (ie they can't just make it up as they go along!) & health considerations are of prime importance in order to do so.

Linebreeding & other such types of breeding, such as outcrossing, have their own importance in the preservation of a breed BUT must be left to the experts who have nothing but the resultant rabbits' wellbeing at heart & know what they are doing.

[Rexy bexy]

hi bunnyboarding,
you alway seem to explain things so well not like me lol, so just like to say well said, dont seen to go into too much detail, i dont think i have the pacience(sp) lol
becky

[Bunnyboarding]

:oops: :lol:

[Caz]

I don't know about breeding but in response to the question about pedigree - when I bought Zeus I got a "pedigree" chart with as much detail (going back to great-grandparents) as the breeder could give on his heritage.

Zeus mum and grandma were fresh blood from abroad and she didn't fill in their pedigree (it is possible that is where Zeus' health problems come from).

In a purely genetic sense sons and daughters have roughly half their genes from each parent so if you mate a father to daughter you have a 50% chance (approx) of introducing new genes so the in-breeding isn't as bad as brother-sister where the percentage of shared genes is much higher (obviously not exactly 100% unless identical twins - does this happen in rabbits?).

When breeders do it I assume it is to actually fix a gene that both have that is desired but that also means you run the risk that the father and daughter both carry a recessive gene for an abnormality as well that doesn't show any physical traits in them but if their kits ended up getting a copy of this gene from the father and the daughter (possibly along with the desired gene) they could show an abnormality. The more genetically distant the matings are the less chance you have of bringing together genes for abnormalities. However even if you buy in new stock you still run the risk that they carry that abnormal gene anyway.

Caz

[Denny]

Hi kerry...what you were saying about male ballet dancers in their tights with their "bits" on display...thats so the female dancers have something to stand on when they leap into the air. I used to have a horse so think I am biased to wards riders also keen on athletes (love those muscley fit bodies) all I am getting all exccited now better go for a shower to calm down.

:lol: :lol: :lol: I take it Mr Shan had a good night last night :wink: :lol: there is nothing like a good cod piece to distract you from the realities of life ay Shan :wink: :lol: :lol:

[Denny]

are you sure that is ok Becky as I too would of thought father and daughter, mother and son would have still been a high risk :?: I thought that the closest member of families that could breed were cousins :?: :?

what sort of deformaties do you get with a litter produced from a brother and sister line :?:

I was wondering what all these health issues were that were caused from inter-breeding

yes im positive mother to son and father to daughter is fine, most breeders breed like this getting better quality rabbits. I know in hamsters u cant m8 relations at all. u get the deformaites when the genes r exactly the same like in brother and sister. im not sure exactly what kind of deformaties they get but i think it can be any thing like spine and leg deformaties, i know a friend of mine whos doe had babies but they had to be PTS as the buck that escaped was her brother
becky

Sorry Becky, did'nt mean to question you as I know that you know your stuff :D :D I am just amazed :shock: I honestly did'nt think they where bred that close in relation to keep good genes. It never even entered my head that this combination would be used as it is unexceptable with humans so just assumed it was a no-go area for rabbits :roll: :? I am truely stunned.

Caz, it must be nice to see Zeus's family tree though, do you have all his ancestry names too :?: My sister has the same papers for her dog and it was lovely listening to all her relatives names :D

[Caz]

Some of them have quite funny names. They are all "Milton's" something if she bred them herself - I think Milton is her stud name.

I can't recall them off the top of my head though - she did have some of his lineage going back even further as she was entering his name onto her computer she realised way back he had a relative called Zues (spelt differently to my Zeus and I think means sweet in some languages).

Caz

[Kerri C]

Hi kerry...what you were saying about male ballet dancers in their tights with their "bits" on display...thats so the female dancers have something to stand on when they leap into the air. I used to have a horse so think I am biased to wards riders also keen on athletes (love those muscley fit bodies) all I am getting all exccited now better go for a shower to calm down.

:lol: :lol: :lol: I take it Mr Shan had a good night last night :wink: :lol: there is nothing like a good cod piece to distract you from the realities of life ay Shan :wink: :lol: :lol:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Rexy bexy]

are you sure that is ok Becky as I too would of thought father and daughter, mother and son would have still been a high risk :?: I thought that the closest member of families that could breed were cousins :?: :?

what sort of deformaties do you get with a litter produced from a brother and sister line :?:

I was wondering what all these health issues were that were caused from inter-breeding

yes im positive mother to son and father to daughter is fine, most breeders breed like this getting better quality rabbits. I know in hamsters u cant m8 relations at all. u get the deformaites when the genes r exactly the same like in brother and sister. im not sure exactly what kind of deformaties they get but i think it can be any thing like spine and leg deformaties, i know a friend of mine whos doe had babies but they had to be PTS as the buck that escaped was her brother
becky

Sorry Becky, did'nt mean to question you as I know that you know your stuff :D :D I am just amazed :shock: I honestly did'nt think they where bred that close in relation to keep good genes. It never even entered my head that this combination would be used as it is unexceptable with humans so just assumed it was a no-go area for rabbits :roll: :? I am truely stunned.

Caz, it must be nice to see Zeus's family tree (http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=22&k=family%20tree) though, do you have all his ancestry names too :?: My sister has the same papers for her dog and it was lovely listening to all her relatives names :D

i wasnt getting at you just that i know quite a few that seem suprised but i supose that how rabbits work cause in the wild they live and breed together so close realtions should have to be a problem as when breeding is concerned as they dont care
:lol: :lol:

when i got my first mini rex to show and breed with they gave me a card with going bk to her grandparents its was also to see what colours r in her bk ground so with some of my offsprog i can go bk to there great great grand parents

becky

[Denny]

are you sure that is ok Becky as I too would of thought father and daughter, mother and son would have still been a high risk :?: I thought that the closest member of families that could breed were cousins :?: :?

what sort of deformaties do you get with a litter produced from a brother and sister line :?:

I was wondering what all these health issues were that were caused from inter-breeding

yes im positive mother to son and father to daughter is fine, most breeders breed like this getting better quality rabbits. I know in hamsters u cant m8 relations at all. u get the deformaites when the genes r exactly the same like in brother and sister. im not sure exactly what kind of deformaties they get but i think it can be any thing like spine and leg deformaties, i know a friend of mine whos doe had babies but they had to be PTS as the buck that escaped was her brother
becky

Sorry Becky, did'nt mean to question you as I know that you know your stuff :D :D I am just amazed :shock: I honestly did'nt think they where bred that close in relation to keep good genes. It never even entered my head that this combination would be used as it is unexceptable with humans so just assumed it was a no-go area for rabbits :roll: :? I am truely stunned.

Caz, it must be nice to see Zeus's family tree (http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=22&k=family%20tree) though, do you have all his ancestry names too :?: My sister has the same papers for her dog and it was lovely listening to all her relatives names :D

i wasnt getting at you just that i know quite a few that seem suprised but i supose that how rabbits work cause in the wild they live and breed together so close realtions should have to be a problem as when breeding is concerned as they dont care
:lol: :lol:

when i got my first mini rex to show and breed with they gave me a card with going bk to her grandparents its was also to see what colours r in her bk ground so with some of my offsprog i can go bk to there great great grand parents

becky

I have to admit, I was surprised :shock: but I expect you get alot of that with us that dont realise this :roll: :lol: It is interesting about the card with all of your first mini rex's relations on it :D its like a family tree card then :D if you buy a bun from a breeder, does the new owner get the same thing then :?: I noted Caz has but Zeus was quite expensive (but well worth it Caz :wink: :D )

[Towsbuns]

There are several people on here that have or have had buns of a great age. It would be interesting to know their history, in other words, is a bun that originated from a breeder that breeds to benefit the breed and their stock more likely to live to a grand old age than one that has originated from a rabbit farm breeder.

[Denny]

There are several people on here that have or have had buns of a great age. It would be interesting to know their history, in other words, is a bun that originated from a breeder that breeds to benefit the breed and their stock more likely to live to a grand old age than one that has originated from a rabbit farm breeder.

this is what I am interesting in too Julie :) I would also like to know what effects in-breeding has ie: are strokes more common or deformed bone structures :? are certain heath issue down to the genes a rabbit carries or not receiving the right diet and care :?:

[Caz]

That is why I wanted to know what happened to Zeus' brother as I have this awful feeling that something I did caused him to be so sickly and that his brother is bounding round perfectly happy somewhere.

If his brother had similar problems than it would alleviate my guilt somewhat as it there would be genetic factors involved too not just the environment I brought him up in but I am too nervous to contact the breeder and ask as she stopped replying to me when I first mentioned the vet was concerned with Zeus' teeth and chest size etc a year ago.

Caz

[Towsbuns]

That is why I wanted to know what happened to Zeus' brother as I have this awful feeling that something I did caused him to be so sickly and that his brother is bounding round perfectly happy somewhere.

If his brother had similar problems than it would alleviate my guilt somewhat as it there would be genetic factors involved too not just the environment I brought him up in but I am too nervous to contact the breeder and ask as she stopped replying to me when I first mentioned the vet was concerned with Zeus' teeth and chest size etc a year ago.

Caz

I would contact the breeder, surely, if Zeus' problems are as a result of his breeding she should be made aware of this if only to ensure that the same pair do not produce more babies. If she refuses to respond and will not contact his brother's owners on your behalf then, I feel, you should contact the BRC and express your concerns to them too.

[Rexy bexy]

I have to admit, I was surprised :shock: but I expect you get alot of that with us that dont realise this :roll: :lol: It is interesting about the card with all of your first mini rex's relations on it :D its like a family tree card then :D if you buy a bun from a breeder, does the new owner get the same thing then :?: I noted Caz has but Zeus was quite expensive (but well worth it Caz :wink: :D )[/quote]

you dont always get a card with the the family realtions on, it depends on the breeder but can always ask i alos have the d.ob on some of mine. There some, i know have come from good breeders but dont know who there past parents were

becky

[Denny]

That is why I wanted to know what happened to Zeus' brother as I have this awful feeling that something I did caused him to be so sickly and that his brother is bounding round perfectly happy somewhere.

If his brother had similar problems than it would alleviate my guilt somewhat as it there would be genetic factors involved too not just the environment I brought him up in but I am too nervous to contact the breeder and ask as she stopped replying to me when I first mentioned the vet was concerned with Zeus' teeth and chest size etc a year ago.

Caz

I would not blame yourself Caz, so please stop feeling guilty :) No one can say that there is the 100% perfect bun, and health issues can arise with old age anyway, this is apart of life :( It sounds odd that the breeder never got back to you in the first place :? Do you know if this breeder still breeds from Zeus's parents :?: or still breeds giants :?: I think the same as Julie, if you dont get a response then I would contact the BRC :)

[Caz]

I should imagine she still breeds giants as she is famous for them :roll: and her website is still going - but she is notoriously hard to get hold of unless you say you want to buy a rabbit - she is always away at shows etc.

As Zeus' mum had won Best of Show at the Bradford I should imagine she is still bred from, don't know about his dad. She was keeping his brother for herself to show him.

I just don't want to ring her up and seem like I am having a go - it is a bit difficult to ask about Zeus' brother without upsetting/insulting her stock.

Caz

[BinkyBun]

Please don't blame yourself Caz, you sound so caring I can't believe its anything that you're doing at all. Sometimes these things just happen. It probably might be something genetic. Maybe if you do want to ask her just say you were wondering in case she had any suggestions of what she, or others, have done with their rabbit with these problems etc etc.

You're a great bunny mummy xxxxxxxxxxxxx

[Denny]

I should imagine she still breeds giants as she is famous for them :roll: and her website is still going - but she is notoriously hard to get hold of unless you say you want to buy a rabbit - she is always away at shows etc.

As Zeus' mum had won Best of Show at the Bradford I should imagine she is still bred from, don't know about his dad. She was keeping his brother for herself to show him.

I just don't want to ring her up and seem like I am having a go - it is a bit difficult to ask about Zeus' brother without upsetting/insulting her stock.

Caz

You could always pop to one of those shows Caz, if you know which ones she goes too, get chatting as you do :wink: you can ask in general as to how Zeus's brother is :wink:

[Caz]

That is an excellent idea!

I missed The London last year - it was right by my house but I didn't write it on the calender and only remember the weekend after - what a dope!

I will have to wait till one of the big shows comes near us again as she lives too far away to turn up at her local shows.

Caz

[taylor v 109]

I havent read all the replys but to allay your fears mother to son and son to daughter is recemmended as long as they are both having the qualitys you want. They both need to be good rabbits with no faults or u are breeding in the problem.U do not normaly breed sister to brother or visa versa.Most breeders keep detailed records so they know who is related to who , this is important. If u buy from a show breeder then they can usualy give you there history. The term pure breed would imply that the rabbits have for a long time been breed[eg] from lop to lop to lop. You can get a lop rabbit that is not pure breed in for instance someone breed a cross up eared rabbit with a lop eared rabbit, some of the offspring may have lop ears but would not be pure lop. If you breed from that rabbit you may still get up eared babys.If you are showing your rabbits you need pure breed rabbits and then breed very carefully to keep the type and colour and coat, temprement etc.This can only be acheived by breeding closly once you have a rabbit that fits the bill, if you breed it with any old rabbit you are mixing up all the genes again.Hope this has helped. val

[taylor v 109]

Caz, sorry but i carnt find the problem you are having with your giant, would you mind repeating it i would be very interrested, as you say sue does import a lot of her stock so its hard to know what there background is. val

[Denny]

I havent read all the replys but to allay your fears mother to son and son to daughter is recemmended as long as they are both having the qualitys you want. They both need to be good rabbits with no faults or u are breeding in the problem.U do not normaly breed sister to brother or visa versa.Most breeders keep detailed records so they know who is related to who , this is important. If u buy from a show breeder then they can usualy give you there history. The term pure breed would imply that the rabbits have for a long time been breed[eg] from lop to lop to lop. You can get a lop rabbit that is not pure breed in for instance someone breed a cross up eared rabbit with a lop eared rabbit, some of the offspring may have lop ears but would not be pure lop. If you breed from that rabbit you may still get up eared babys.If you are showing your rabbits you need pure breed rabbits and then breed very carefully to keep the type and colour and coat, temprement etc.This can only be acheived by breeding closly once you have a rabbit that fits the bill, if you breed it with any old rabbit you are mixing up all the genes again.Hope this has helped. val

thanks Val :thumb: understand what pure bred is now :D :D

[Caz]

Caz, sorry but i carnt find the problem you are having with your giant, would you mind repeating it i would be very interrested, as you say sue does import a lot of her stock so its hard to know what there background is. val

His incisor tooth roots are growing up into his tear ducts and his molar roots down out of the bottom of his jaw. He also has a chronic ear infection and used to have nasal discharge and constant tearing from the obstruction of his tear ducts until the vet changed antibiotic. All of these problems started to manifest themselves within a few months of getting him, the first x-ray they took in Jan 04 showed a mild problem which we tried to treat with increased hay in the diet (cut down on pellets to encourage hay eating) and a round of antibiotics. This appeared to clear it up but then it all sprung up again Sep 04 and this time the x-ray showed the problem is now severe and the roots just haven't stopped growing.

Penicillin is helping the infection that is present and we have cut out pellets almost completely to a 90% hay diet (obviously Sue originally recommended giving large volumes of pellets to keep his weight up for showing). The infection is clearing but the vet isn't sure what to do about the molar roots yet.

I always followed the advice of Sue re diet and he had access to hay but I think didn't eat that much becuase of the pellets, although he doesn't have malocclusion the vet does think his genetics must have something to do with this.

I was always a bit concerned because when we bought Zeus he couldn't hold one of his ears upright when resting and it has always flopped over, he can hold it upright when listening but the muscles seem unusually weak. This is on the side he has the ear infection and the majority of the jaw problems.

Caz

[taylor v 109]

Thanks caz,its a puzzler if the vet says its not malaclusion, then that would count out the hay thing. It usualy takes longer for teeth problems to develope if its due to not eating hay and its the front teeth normaly that go first.This would look like an heretary problem to me, although ive never heard of it in giants.It would be hard to pinpoint, i know sue does import a lot of rabbits but i know she would not intentionly breed in any kind of problem as it would ruin here stock for shiowing.When giants are young they do need a great deal of food and only when they grow to size do u gut down on food to stop them getting fat. They have a great deal of body to grow and need all the food they can eat, but as i say only untill they are adult.The loped ear is of course why the rabbit was sold because it could not be shown and would not be breed from. I think its probebly as u say a weekness but i have a friend who breeds giants but never sells ,and he has had the odd rabbit with a weak ear but it has not caused any problems, i think u have been very unlucky there. Has the vet checked for ear mites at all, as that is usualy the cause. The air flow is probebly not very good with the ear lop but that in itself would not cause the problem. I as u may know breed lops and im lucky to be able to say that ive never had an ear infection in any of my rabbits.Giants have been breed for a very long time now and as far as ive ever heard they do not have any in breed faults as a breed. The only thing with them as u no is they are not long lived as they are a little rabbits organs in a giants body and this leads to a shorter lifespan. I do hope that u are able to do somthing for your rabbit as it must be heartbreaking to have this problem in a muchloved pet. On my travels i will try to do some research for u and speak to as many giant breeders as i can and ask for problems they have encountered. This will take some time as they are spread very widly over the country, so i can only hope to meet a few at shows during this year.Again best of luck with your beloved rabbit. val

[Denny]

So now we know that the best genes are aqcuired through a mother /son or father/daughter mating, does this mean ultimately that if you mate your rabbit with say, a friends rabbit that it will eventually have a health issue :?:

what about if you have a pure bred rabbit and you mate it with a totally unrelated rabbit that is a purebred, both have good genes, is this not a good mating combination :?: will there be problems with this :?:

[Towsbuns]

So now we know that the best genes are aqcuired through a mother /son or father/daughter mating, does this mean ultimately that if you mate your rabbit with say, a friends rabbit that it will eventually have a health issue :?:

what about if you have a pure bred rabbit and you mate it with a totally unrelated rabbit that is a purebred, both have good genes, is this not a good mating combination :?: will there be problems with this :?:

Denny, my understanding from what Val said was that Mother & Son with no known health problems but both with a wanted feature would fix that feature - so if both Dad and daughter have a lovely colouring, then breeding them together will produce babies with that colour. However, I suppose the same would happen with problems surely. Say, if mum and son both had teeth problems or a heart defect and these were allowed to breed surely that would fix that problem into all the babies. So, therefore, parent/child breeding is only good when the breeder is responsible and caring enough to ensure that the defects are not allowed to continue by ensuring that these rabbits to not produce young.

[Denny]

So now we know that the best genes are aqcuired through a mother /son or father/daughter mating, does this mean ultimately that if you mate your rabbit with say, a friends rabbit that it will eventually have a health issue :?:

what about if you have a pure bred rabbit and you mate it with a totally unrelated rabbit that is a purebred, both have good genes, is this not a good mating combination :?: will there be problems with this :?:

Denny, my understanding from what Val said was that Mother & Son with no known health problems but both with a wanted feature would fix that feature - so if both Dad and daughter have a lovely colouring, then breeding them together will produce babies with that colour. However, I suppose the same would happen with problems surely. Say, if mum and son both had teeth problems or a heart defect and these were allowed to breed surely that would fix that problem into all the babies. So, therefore, parent/child breeding is only good when the breeder is responsible and caring enough to ensure that the defects are not allowed to continue by ensuring that these rabbits to not produce young.

arrrhhh, I get what you are saying Julie :) its very intricate workings :? wonder if the same applies to other animals :? like chinchilla's etc :? :?

[Caz]

As far as I believe the best genes aren't aquired by mating relatives, just fixed once they have appeared (usually from a random mutation or careful selective breeding).

For example two rabbits breed and one of the daughters in the litter has the exact perfect markings that the father has but the rest aren't as perfect (like the mother). If you really wanted to make sure these perfect markings weren't lost you could then mate the father to the perfectly marked daughter in the hope all the kits were born with the desired markings.

Now you hopefully have kits with perfect markings, which could be used for showing but these kits also run the risk of getting multiple copies of other undesired genes as well as the multiple copies of the desired genes. These undesirable ones could for example code for genetic abnormalities such as malloclusion.

In the above example the father could have had a bad gene for malloclusion that was recessive (i.e. the gene for normal teeth is dominant over the one for malloculsion so as long as there is at least one copy of the good gene the bad gene doesn't show in any physically observable way), so he would have normal teeth but be a carrier for bad teeth.

When he mated he could have passed this bad gene to his daughter along with the gene for perfect markings, so when they were mated together the resulting kits got a copy of this bad gene from their mother (passed down from her father) and another copy of the bad gene directly from their father. Two copies of a recessive bad gene would mean the kits showed that abnormality (malocclusion).

Now a good breeder would select those kits born with perfect markings and no malocclusion (only got one copy of the bad gene or possibly two good genes) and breed them with another rabbit with very good markings from another bloodline. They could have bought the rabbit from another breeder and checked pedigree to ensure they weren't related, or could borrow a friend's pedigree as stud for their female.

This would mix in some other hopefully good genes so diluting out the copies of the bad gene and reducing the risk of getting malocclusion in any future kits. The closer the relation between any rabbits mated, the more likely the kits are to inherit multiple copies of bad genes.

Obviously you also run the risk of mixing in other recessive bad genes carried by the new rabbit but as long as the breeder ensures they keep mixing new blood in; these genes shouldn't get concentrated enough in the bloodline to start showing physical problems in the rabbits produced by the stud.

I have simplified this a bit as multiple genes are at work with deciding coat colour/markings and problems such as malloclusion.

Caz

P.S. thanks Val for your advice and help, the vet could see no reason for the problem with his ear and he can hold it upright (it doesn't properly lop) I know the summer we bought him her rabbit house had got too hot because of a problem with her cooling fans and a lot of the kits ended up with lopping ears because they dilated their bloodvessels too much to keep themselves cool. She said Zeus hadn't been affected but it may have been that and then the reduced airflow caused by the drooping ear led to an infection


P.P.S. it took so long to type this you got in before me Julie :( I wrote this from basic knowledge of what I know of human genetics, in theory it could be applied to most mammals but it depends on how the chromosomes pair during reproduction.

[Towsbuns]

P.P.S. it took so long to type this you got in before me Julie :( I wrote this from basic knowledge of what I know of human genetics, in theory it could be applied to most mammals but it depends on how the chromosomes pair during reproduction.

But yours is worded so much beter than mine and is a far better explanation :lol: :lol:

[KateRowan]

I've been reading all this stuff about inbreeding with more than usual interest because four of my lot were the result of a brother sister mating from a very irresponsible source. I shan't go into details because I get angry whenever I think about that situation and unfortunately there's nothing that can be done about it. I took them on as an alternative to them being left to fend for themselves :( .

So far apart from three out of the four of them having a very bad reaction to the anaesthetic when they were neutered - I thought I was going to lose them - they seem to be pretty healthy, no teeth problems, very active, digestions seem good etc. My concern is what other defects are likely to be going on there, I know the heart is often mentioned in these cases :( .

I love them all very dearly despite their wildness, and over time they've become somewhat tamer though they're never going to be cuddle buns. I try to keep stress to a total minimum for them (and all my rabbits), feed them hay, herbs and a few pellets, with some oats when they're moulting and make sure they get a chance for plenty of play and exercise each day. Is there anything else I can do or add to their diet to increase their chances of living to a good age?

I've just realised I should have posted this in rabbit care really, but if anyone reads this and has any thoughts or suggestions I'd appreciate it :) .

[Caz]

My post was really about the worse possible senarios, you may be lucky and in those rabbit's case the only defective gene they inherited was the allergy to anaesthetic.

Actually this example highlighted one of my earlier points that you don't automatically end up with loads of abnormal defects when you get inbreeding as obviously in your case one rabbit got a good gene and ended up with no allergy whereas the other three got the raw deal with the defective genes.

I don't think there is anything you can do to prolong their lives other than providing a good home and a good diet and you sound like you are spoiling them rotton and totally making up for their poor start in life so you are doing the best you can!!

As can be proven by my four you can pay the earth for a pedigree or you can adopt an unwanted pet shop cross breed and either way you can end up with problems, sometimes it is just the luck of the draw with genetics!

I wish them all long, happy lives with you and I am sure they will achieve them! :D

Caz

[KateRowan]

Thanks Caz, that's made me feel better about it :D .

[taylor v 109]

Thanks for the reply caz, the sibling mating can be done but usualy only once its not recamended.In an earlier reply someone asked about mating a cross breed to a pure breed rabbit, if u do this u mix up the genes and u dont know what the cross carrys, thers nothing to say that it would turn out badley but if u are breeding to a standard then u need to know what genes ur rabbits are passing otherwixe u would be forever trying to get the kind of rabbit u want. Caz i wish i was as clever as u your reply said it all. val :wink:

[aliceechamberlain]

I get really upset about interbreeding as I often see the worst of it. I currently have a pair of bunnies in, the one of whom does not have tear ducts, so says my vet from interbreeding, he needs his eyes cleaning and drops applied each day. We have had buns with paralysed backs, tooth deformities, all our vet said said from inter breeding, all originally from pet shops. Several have been so ill and 'retarded' they have had to be put to sleep for their own salvation. I see interbreeding as a serious and distressing problem in pet shops who buy 'ad lib'. Alice