rescues and breeding

i wished to ask a question to the brc breeder, but wasnt allowed to in that topic. I do not wish to offend, but how can a rescuer of bunnies feel justified to breed more bunnies by adding to the problem?

The RSPCA issued a report 4 years ago, saying, that if ALL animals were to stop being sold in petshops and breeding stopped, there would still be enough animals to go round for the next 20 years!!

I realise you are "funded" if this funding was taken away would you still rescue? many rescues are unfunded, we do this off our own backs.

I also know the arguement for breeding, breeding from good stock etc,you wish to breed a good quality rabbit etc etc etc, but if there were fewer breeders then the rescue rabbits may find a home.

When you go into a sweetshop looking for a mars, bar, you dont leave with nothing if they dont have any, you find an equivelent surely?

There are thousands of rabbits put to sleep yearly due to the pressures from breeders, good and bad.

I cant for the life of me, figure out how someone can do both. If for a specific breed many of those breeds end up in rescues, for every rabbit bred, they are taking a home from one that is rescued?

#I dont wish to be offensive or ignorant, im just at a loss to understand.

Hiya just like to reply from a breeders point of view, i don't rescue as well but know others do. I have found that the vast majority of rabbits in rescues are cross breeds, a brc registered breeder will only be breeding to improve there lines so would not produce cross breeds. I know pure bred rabbits end up in rescues as well and i know brc registered people are responsible for some of these which i totally disagree with. I feel that if i make the decision to mate my rabbits then all offspring are my responsibility and it is my job to find homes for them or care for them here, i would never dump my rabbits on a rescue, i know they have enough to cope with.

If a brc rung rabbit finds its way into a rescue please give the brc a call with the number and they will be able to tell you the breeder of the rabbit plus all registered keepers. If a rabbit has been mistreated in anyway they will investigate. You will also find that alot of breeders, if they discover a rabbit bred from them has ended up in rescue will take it back either to keep or rehome again themselves.

Yvonne

breeding ethics

Hi again,

apologies if ive offended, i dont really have a way of putting my point of view across sometimes which doesnt sound as if im getting at anyone.

Ive had dozens of netherland dwarfs come to me, and while i know some breeders out there try to be responsible for their buns, others arent quite as indiscriminate.

Im not saying all breeders are like this, but the purebred rabbits, can sometimes be problematic, their genes are responsible, whilst i know many breeders dont want a sick animal, many of the netherland dwarfs end up in rescues, because the owners can no longer afford the vet bills.

Ask any vet in the country and the netherland dwarf has one of the highest in the country for problems, the breeders (as a whole not individuals) have bred a rabbit for its size, but as the jawbone and teeth are the last to develop from an evolutionary side of things, you end up with a rabbit which has been stunted, but the jaw and teeth remain normal sized. which in turn caused huge huge problems for the poor wee bun.

Many of the "crossbreeds" Ive found are actually healthier buns than some of the pure breds. Rabbit breeding is becoming like the dog world, they keep breeding all these kind of weird and wonderful shapes, from a human aesthitc point of view, with no regard to the poor animals.

This is going on in ALL animals, name any purebred dog and one can come back with all the problems associated with the breed.

I for one like to see all the new colours etc, but i wish theyd do it without causing any detrimental effects on the actual animal, as many of the colours seem to be carried on the same gene as a particular trait.

i.e blues (not in rabbits, im no expert on rabbit breeds or breeding) in rats, cause the same gene to cause cannabism and difficult births associated with the fibrinogen (causes blood to clot),
the rex, i know the rexes are different in rabbits, but rex rats, suffer untold skin problems, due to the curly coat.

Again sorry if i offend, im terrible at times, i dont mean to, it kinda comes across as if im getting at someone in particular which im not.lol

Its difficult to ask questions like these but I think your doing well on the not offending. They are important points to think about. You might find reading back some of the older topics interesting as there have been lots of suggestions raised. I'll sumerise one for you.

There are several different types of breeder. There are those who accidentally or not breed their pet for fun, then realise they can't find homes or it gets out of control and rescues are called in to pick up the pieces. Then there are 'backyard breeders' those that breed for profit usually in large quantities to supply the pet trade. Then there are brc breeders how breed towards a standard (often for showing) if you talk to them you'll find they laugh if you suggest there is any profit to be made.

Actual numbers of brc bred rabbits ending up in rescues are very small as the mostly go to other members or carefully choosen pet homes. They are also likely to be healthy rabbits as genetic defects like teeth problems are not showable. Very few sell through petshops.

The main problem comes from those breeders who mass produce for the pet trade, as not only do they supply large numbers of rabbits they don't have any concern for health. They just want cute babies that will sell.

We do need breeders, life expecany of bunnies is only 8ish years so if we stopped now they'd be gone then not in twenty. The people we need to stop breeding are the bad ones, the ones contributing to the rabbit numbers in rescues and breeding without concern for health.

Many of the brc produced rabbits aren't taking homes away from rescue rabbits because they go to other breeders or people that want to show rather then those who would have had a rescue rabbit instead. So a breeder that rescues are cater for two different sorts of people. They have pedigree rabbits for those that want to breed/show and rescues for those wanting pets. I think its actually a positive thing, the other option would be for them to breed more rabbits for those wanting pets

Tam

I have always had very rigid anti-breeding views. I would like to know how many animals a BRC person would be likely to breed to get their perfect show quality rabbit?

I think that like everything in life there is god and bad in all. There are some realy rsponsible breeders and some who are only in it for the money - it is the same with all animals not just rabbits.

From my own experience I can say that Aggie was a show bun and even had her ring on - she was dumped at the SSPCA and had been in there for months before I took her.

I never even realised she was a "posh" bun - I only took her because she had been in the longest (and Lynda's piccy made her look so sweet) - it was only once we got her home we noticed the ring.

I don't think Pie & Mash are cross breeds either. Kim was a bit of a mix and I am not sure about Twinkle.

lol Pam

Clare Green said:

I have always had very rigid anti-breeding views. I would like to know how many animals a BRC person would be likely to breed to get their perfect show quality rabbit?

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that can depend for some people it can take yrs to get a really good show rabbit some times it can just be pot luck a really good one can pop up in a litter, but i dont breed any old rabbit, i think what im going to put with what and when im going to breed it for instance about a month bk i was going to m8 some up but 1st i went and brought a new calender first cause i knew easter was coming early a realised the rabbits would be ready to leave just b4 easter so i have waited and there is one litter that should be ready after easter and another im waiting a bit longer. I dont just breed the 1st to male and female that pop along iv waited monthes and monthes for one male, so i dont just keep mating rabbits hoping one good show rabbit will pop out, i think b4 i m8.
but as already said with every good there is a evil there r good breeders and bad breeders, good pet owners and bab pet owners
becky

Clare Green said:

I have always had very rigid anti-breeding views. I would like to know how many animals a BRC person would be likely to breed to get their perfect show quality rabbit?

Click to expand...

That's a very difficult question to answer, Clare, because, as Becky says it could take years or if you start off with some show-winning pedigree ones it could take just 1 or 2 litters.
However it's not just 1 show rabbit that people work towards when deciding to get into rabbit breeding, it's the whole line that requires alot of dedication for them all to become show winners.
There are some breeders with just a few breeding rabbits, like me, or there are some people with 60+! It all depends on 1) how long that persons been breeding 2) if they keep many many breeds and 3) to keep so many that breeder must be getting somewhere for them all to be good enough to continue breeding with them and improving their line, closer to the standard.
There are many 'back-yard breeders' who breed diseased animals just for the pet trade, or some breeders with rabbits in the life of luxury with a 6ft hutch! I don't think it is fair to tar all breeders with the same brush, and...alot can be learned from these people who have had rabbits for 50 years and I bet none go straight into rescues from the breeder - maybe it is a pet owner that the breeder sells to, but they move abroard or something similar which means they can no longer keep it. Breeders certainally don't contribute directley to the rabbits which are in rescues.
Hope this clears somethings up for you.

breeders good and bad

Hi all,

hope no one minds me adding my tuppence worth, I do agree that there are good and bad breeders. However i have to disagree with the statement saying breeders are not directly responsible for buns being in rescue.

I had to take in 14 baby buns, from a very reliable "good" breeder, who has won many many shows her name i cant disclose as this is part of my agreement to any owner when i agree to take them in.

these buns had been with the owner for a few months and she couldnt find homes for them, she no longer wanted them because they werent up to scratch, they were mismarked, i dont know enough to argue the points of why a spot, or marking is in the wrong place, but this was the reason, the bun in question had 16 of which only two came up to scratch. I felt this was a lot of buns for one litter, im assuming this was a one off, but the mom was bred every year because of her good track record, the next again year i was asked to take her, cos she was too old to have more kits, and she produced another two litters that werent up to scratch.

Breeding i do believe is pot luck, unless you work in a lab manipulating genes and traits, there is no way any breeder can predict the outcome of any matings, other than your standard mendelsohns square.

Now perhaps she was not quite many of the breeders, and breeders who dont have buns up to scratch they find homes for, however, the amount of rabbits in rescue, pedigree and crossbreeds, is horrendous, i firmly believe this is a direct result from breeders, whether they be good or bad.

Most of the buns i have in at the moment, arent crossbreeds. I think in the last five years ive only ever had a handful of crossbreeds, ive never had any rare breeds, other than angoras, and they are not the easiest buns to care for and i dont think they are that rare.

A recent rescue from the sspca last year, was called into a house, in which the buns at the front were kept in immaculate conditions, the ones not quite up to scratch were left to fend for themselves in a barn.

The recent petition in the states calling for the toughest punishment was a high quality show breeder. With many many trophies and rosettes etc.

How can you tell really what is a good and bad breeder?

I dont mean to sound harsh, but when youve seen as many animals, not just buns (which we have the highest record of abuse and neglect for), you cant really agree with breeding. If you go to a sweet shop for a mars bar and they are sold out, you come back with something else surely the same i assume would be for rabbits.

I have had a few people looking for specific breeds or not just rabbits, and they have taken the time to come to me (i live in the middle of nowehre) they are more than happy to take another breed or colour if i dont have the type they wish.

What makes one bun different from another, other than size, and requirements, whats the difference between a fawn lop and black and white, they both requrie the same things, albeit personalities may differe somewhat.

Many of the pedigree breeds are becoming like the dog world, where the breeds are carrying certain traits now surely that is not a good thing.

Vets agree the netherland dwarf is genetic disaster area they have been bred so small, problems are inherent. not all breeds of rabbit have problems i dont think, but it is certainly becoming a problem.


okay ive had my rant lolo, :lol:

Was the breeder you took the rabbits from a BRC member? If so you can report them to the BRC who'll investigate and might revoke their membership. You can either give the name or they can be traced by the ring number if they were wearing rings.

Tam

I think that it is the breeders responsibility to find homes for the babies they breed - be it well marked or mis marked ones...they shouldn't just go to the easiest route possible and dump them on a rescue. And if they can't find homes for them then, no they shouldn't be breeding that many.
However my views are that whether a rabbit is up to show standard or not, the owner and breeder does have every right to rehome it, it's just the mismarked ones are the first to go....as who would want to continue breeding with something that is going to produce more mis-marked - which is surely better in the long run as it is just that one being rehomed not 5 of its babies too :idea:
I don't think that you will get very far with the BRC to be honest...as long as the buns were happy and healthy there is no reason or rule to say how many rabbits that person breeds - or what outlets they use to sell them...these aren't my views, just what they will say i think.
Off my soap box now

mismarked buns

Im not trying to antagonise anyone by the way i keep going on about this, but what is the real difference between on rabbit that has the wrong marking and another one that does?

It boils down to the selfishness or vanity of humans that cast one away in favour of another, i feel every bun or any animal deserves to be treated equally.

You could never prefer one to another with children so why does it have to be that way in the first place.

I know we dont live in an ideal world where everyone is equal, i jsut feel its wrong to keep one bun cos its got perfect marking and discard the other cos its not up to scratch, or its not as aesthetically pleasing.


As for reporting to the brc, they couldnt give a toss how many buns end up in rescues, i wrote to the committee already, saying i was concerend about the numbers of rabbits being discarded (albeit rehomed) their arguement was that all their buns are well cared for, and surprise surprise, its up to the individual breeder if they feel their rabbit isnt of show quality. I also wrote to the house rabbit society asking if they could offere advice, to even minimalise the amount of buns in rescue, or being put down cos there is no homes for them. Ive never had to do it myself, cos i refuse to take any more than i can care for properly, but other rescues have to take the line wher ethe oldest resident goes to the little room at the end of the corridor.

I dont know what happens to the buns i cant take in, some are dumped, we have a wild population here that are black and white in the town of annan, so i can assume it goes on all over.

it is a difficult debate, i dont think there are any rights and wrongs, be it good/bad breeders, as a whole the country has a huge problem with unwanted buns, and that is what i feel counts, why breed more when there are dozens. Perhaps if we had an amnesty every couple years where petstores and breeders alike dont breed until we can rehome the rescue buns. no easy answers im afraid.

The BRC have recently said that they will investigate reports from rescues of breeders dumping rabbits on them. You just need to provide the ring numbers and details so they can track the breeder.

The brc do not want breeders dumping rabbits on rescues not only because in itself its bad but also it gives the brc and other breeders a bad name.

I'm not saying the brc couldn't do more but it is worth taking advantage of the ways in which they will help.

Tam

ok then just a thought, i might a stupid idea but but just something that sprung into my head :lol:
this is just something else i like to point out, there r so many unwanted a mistake litters about and ever more increasing, that we should make nutering more aware to people.
but what would proberbly help is that breeders should have a lisence and ever so often it would have to be reneuwed and should have investigator cheaking on them ever so often and this is proberlby hard to do it was just a thought and this would proberbly help the cut down in numbers of rabbits. And maybe there should only be certain breeders like brc members that dont just breed for the pet trade as there r so many people about who breed for pet shops and just pets in genral and i know quite a few brc members who wont sell to people who breed just purley for pets.
oh also maybe ever person who owns a rabbit should have a license too for every rabbit like they used to with dogs.
becky

here here becky

thats just what i think, i was asked to contribute my thoughts, as many rescues were asked, what they would like to see in the new animal health bill.

I mentioned that all rescues and breeders should be licensed, as there are rescues that are bad as well, im probably an in betweeny, i dont have all the mod cons and finances to turn my hovel farm into a state of the art rescue centre, as i dont get funded, but i do think rescues and any animal orientated place should be checked, the only problem with that idea was they are thinking of introduced quite a hefty fee for registration, which would certainly put me and a lot of other people i know out of the rescue business, as the cost would just be taken from the animal care we give.


There are absolutely hundreds and hundreds of breeders, of various species of animals, and trying to regulate them would cost, which is where the registration fee comes in, its okay for large rescues like the sspca/rspca and funded rescues and sanctuaries, but for the small ones like myself, i suppose i dont have to do this, i guess my life would be a helluva lot less stressful if i didnt take animals in need, but i couldnt imagine my life any other way. i probably need them more than they need me, so i suppose some breeders may think this way also.

its a toughie, with no easy answer, just a lot of disagrrements lol

Just to add to this Donna, I don't know about where you are but in our area we don't get very much support from the SPCA. I have reported a rogue breeder on several occasions but the inspector always says there's nothing wrong as all the animals are alive, fed and watered. It's so frustrating. This breeder has bred a variety of animals including horses, she was banned from keeping any animals for 12 years after a local vet reported her for cruelty to horses. Now she's at it again, and this time it's rabbits, I can't do a thing about it. She sells rabbits for £3 (adults) and £5 (kits). She goes into overdrive at Easter. Bear the angora was left outside in a wire pet carrier, this was his 'hutch'. He was left out in all weathers, his fur was matted solid, and still the inspector said there was nothing wrong. It's so disheartening. A lady saw him when she went to get a bun for her granddaughter, and felt sorry for him. The breeder gave him to her for nothing. The lady kept him for a week before bringing him to me as she couldn't cope with him and her granddaughter was terrified of him. Bear was taken to the vet for clipping and the vet found several scars on his body. The breeder was using horse clippers to clip him and had caught his skin in umpteen places. Bear was terrified and covered in poo. It was heartbreaking to see him. His back legs are deformed and he has a screw tail. For all this, he is the most loving, funny, sweet natured bunny in the world.

It's almost like the inspector doesn't care or can't cope with all the work he has to do. There are three inspectors to cover an area which stretches from Perth to Aberdeen, and they work in a shift pattern, so usually there is only one or two available at any one time.

sspca

Hi lynda,

yep know exacty what you are saying most rescues have a tale to tell regarding the sspca.the only support i got from them was as a dumping ground when i lived in perth, as you say unless there is down and out cruelty they are nowhere to be seen, no one regulates the sspca, they do the best they can i suppose, but when there are bigwigs spending money on millions of pounds worth of admin buildings and investing in stocks and shares than employing more officers, i guess it wont change.

Im very much out in the sticks and our nearest office is stranraer, so i dont get dumped on as much here than i was in perth, our officer was probably the same one you have, or one of them anyway, i got a bollicking for removing animals from a house (my son had the keys he lived there from time to time), the buns were in an appalling state, the lad had problems to say the least, budgies with their claws piercing their own feet they were that long, we had a long haired piggie he thought was a rabbit and it had died, cos to the cocciodstat in the rabbit food which you know is toxic piggies, many of the buns had urine burns so sore they were weeping on the soles of their feet were raw, matted fur, maggots youname it they had it, the sspca did have to help me in that i had committed an offence by removing them, witouth the police, so they tracked the lad down to have them signed over, then what, he said he wanted the budgie back, no charges, nothing i was so mad.

when one died immmediattely after giving birth, i found myself at a loss of what to do with the kits (i didnt know how to feed them at that time, and tried like most small furries every two hours), when i asked him for advice, he told me I SWEAR TO GOD THIS IS TRUE, put them in a plastic bag and slam them hard against the concrete floor, because, as he put it , there are too many to rehome as it is, without more buns being born into the situation.He told me i was being cruel trying to feed them myself, and theyd die. as it turned out they did suffer, they lasted 10 days, with most of them dying in the first few days , seizures, bloat, at that time there was no internet, and no one knew how to feed buns, once at night and once in the morning, with me feeding them every two hours, i killed them, by the toxin gathering intheir stomach. As bad as i felt, i wouldve tried again,


One officer on duty covering such a large area, i suppoose they have to prioritise the huge workload they have.some are good some arent,like everything else, theres only so much that can be done, and i believe having an amnesty to stop petshops and breeders jsut till we sort the vast amount of rescue, i know people enjoy breeding, and im not saying put a stop to it entirely (although i would like that lol only specific registeres) jsut to give the country time to recoup and home the buns we have already.

I myself would never give a rabbit of mine to a pet shop and in an ideal ever person who bus a pet should have to buy a licence, the general public on the whole have no idea how to look after rabbits ore any pet and it should be made a lot harder to buy one. I breed very few litters every year, the ones that dont have show quality are still better raised and socialized, than the ordinary breeder and therfore make the best pets but my rabbits tend to go to other breeders. Sometimes one or two will go to privet pet homes on the understanding that if at a later date they need to rehome that it comes back to me, i invest a great deal of time into my rabbits and care for every one even the ones i dont show. As for the rescue side of it im not funded at the monment although the rescue i used to help out now want me to come back. the reason i do it is because i have a vast experience of rabbit care, and good knowledge of heath problems that i can deal with without having to keep taking the rabbits to the vets so reducing the cost. My vet and i are in close contact and she trusts my knowledge on treatments to give me the drugs i need and give the treatments., i also have the time to do the job as im at home all day and can deal with the visits and the callers.My hours are 24-7 to rabbits and possable homers and the people know that they can call on me at all times if there is a problem, many come back to me for boarding so i can keep an eye on most of the rabbits i deal with. Last year i rehomed 80 rabbits, we are one of the biggest homers of rabbits in our area because of the space and time that i give for nothing.I think that im very good at doing both things very welland there is no conflict of interrests I KNOW I DONT ADD to the numbers of homless rabbits, and work my socks of to make sure that every rabbit wether mine or rescue leads a happy life.I lay the blame squarly with mainly back st breeders and the few bad profesional breeders. But dont tar all breeders as the same, i know as you do whot can happen to a rabbit that may have a living owner but an un edgucated one. This can only be sorted by making people more aware whot complex little creatures rabbits are and if looked after and more importantly well breed by a caring knowledgable breeder whot a lovely addition to a family they can be. I dont know if you know or not but places like pets at home who sell large amount of rabbits get them from one breeder, who by the sear numbers involved cannot be breeding good pets because they cannot have the time to rear the babys properly and give them the socializing that they need. The vast majority of rabbits that come in to me have done so because the children that have them are put of by their reluctance to be picked up and stroked, this all goes back to the mass producer that hasent the time or the motivation to do the job properly. The only way i think to make money out of rabbits is to severly cut corners, witch i would never do. My rabbits cost me a lot of money and i go without a lot of things to have them, but i love rescuing and the showing and i have a clear consience that i dio both well. val

Whilst i do agree many breeders do have a lot of knowledge to impart regarding the rearing of buns and education, as a rescuer i see many cases of neglect and cruelty and often things a breeder would have not seen.

As ive said in previous posts, im having to learn a lot about rabbits quickly due to the increasing incidence of many diseases and infections i havent seen before, and neither have many breeders.

BReeders of show rabbits as a majority do take better care of their buns, cos it wouldnt do to have an ill or malformed bun taking part in a show.

However, if there were no buns available from breeders, then the obvious choice would be to take a rescue. As has happened in recent cases ive had.

people looking for specific breeds, at the moment i have 3 still looking for various breeds, but they did take a couple of rescues buns whilst they await.(probably wait a long time for the breeds i have on a waiting list).

What i am trying to say is for every breeder finding a home for one of their mismarked etc, i believe that could be a home for a rescue bun.

I also believe that if a breeder were to be presented with a bun with say tooth problems, there is no way they are going to spend masses of money on one rabbit, or very few are anyway.

My vet bill for buns requiring attention just in the last quarter was £670.

that involved, 3 operations on one rabbit for chronic tooth problems, spaying and vaccinations.

On the breeding side, again not fully aware of the implications and ages etc for breeding rabbits, but am very familiar with the small furries.

For instance a rat is bred between 6 and 12 months. Rats lives are becoming shorter due to the breeding. when i was a kid it wasnt unusual to have a five year old rat, now that figure is more likely to be your doing extremely well if its 2 years.

however, they are bred between those ages, and litters produces, what if a problem is discovered after its 12months old, as a rat can produces a litter theoretically every3 weeks, but breeders will breed around 5 times a year from one rat. that is five litters in one year that potentiall carry a genetic problems, in which time other breeders have taken litters to breed from the ones rehomed to start with. In the rat world that is an awful lot of rats.

so for instance say a breeder breeds twice from one bun at 2 years old, some buns are not born with the genetic fault, they acquire it later i assume making comparisons with the rats.

Cancerous tumours can be genetic, in rabbits as well as rats, if a bun or rat develops these tumours, after its been bred from, thats an awful lot of potential illness in buns.

There is also the risk of uterine diseases, which have a higher figure in breeders be buns, dogs or rats.

No one is right or wrong here, but from a rescue point of view there are far too many buns in rescues, or worse being dumped, all i think is needed is an amenesty from breeders and petshops alike for a certain period of time so rescues buns get the same chance of a loving home.

You are right in saying that many breeders sell to other breeders, but as already pointed out, some things develop after they are bred.

Im probably not putting this into words how to explain what i really mean.

but the bottom line is im never ever going to change the mind of a breeder, and no one will change my opinions either, so the problems will continue until it spirals out of control. 33000 buns a year (quoted from another site, but ive been told this is a higher figure than that, 33,000 is the sspca figures alone) end up in rescues, how is that, are all those figures coming from bad breeders.

pets at home take anyones buns, rats, gerbils etc, yes they are mass produced, but they also take local breeders mistakes.

I understand exactly where your coming from Donna, as a rescue you see the worse of the worse, the way some people treat animals is unbelievable, not always down to deliberate cruelty but simply not knowing and bothering to find out the correct way to look after the animal they have chosen as a pet. I no longer speak to my neighbour as we had many arguments about her letting her daughter have various pets from a young age and insisting she took sole responsibility for the care of the pet, with no reminders when she knew full well the child had forgotten to feed it or clean it out. Her attitude was, maybe her daughter will learn her lesson if the animal dies. Because of this, 2 hamsters have starved to death in the living room in full view of the adults in the house, a rabbit was killed by a fox because nobody could be bothered to get it in at night, and at 12 this girl has now moved on to goldfish and is buying a new 1 every couple of days as she can't keep them alive. The petshop has refused to sell them to her because of her age so her mom is now going with her to get the next victim.

But not all are like that, most people who have pets are genuine animal lovers and will take the time to learn about the animal they plan to have before hand. I offer free advice to people in my area on the proper care of rabbits and even go and clip claws for those that don't feel they can do it themselves. I have also taken in rabbits when the owners discovered the rabbits they had living together where not same sex as they had thought. (usually not noticing until they find the babies)

On the breeding side, my main breed is the netherland dwarf, the average litter size is 2 and i only breed from my does once or twice a year so i don't have masses of babies to find homes for. The only litter i have at the moment I'm keeping both and this often happens. If i do have any i need to rehome they often go to other breeders and i have very few that require pet homes.

Yvonne