rescues and breeding

[scotratrescue]

i wished to ask a question to the brc breeder, but wasnt allowed to in that topic. I do not wish to offend, but how can a rescuer of bunnies feel justified to breed more bunnies by adding to the problem?

The RSPCA issued a report 4 years ago, saying, that if ALL animals were to stop being sold in petshops and breeding stopped, there would still be enough animals to go round for the next 20 years!!

I realise you are "funded" if this funding was taken away would you still rescue? many rescues are unfunded, we do this off our own backs.

I also know the arguement for breeding, breeding from good stock etc,you wish to breed a good quality rabbit etc etc etc, but if there were fewer breeders then the rescue rabbits may find a home.

When you go into a sweetshop looking for a mars, bar, you dont leave with nothing if they dont have any, you find an equivelent surely?

There are thousands of rabbits put to sleep yearly due to the pressures from breeders, good and bad.

I cant for the life of me, figure out how someone can do both. If for a specific breed many of those breeds end up in rescues, for every rabbit bred, they are taking a home from one that is rescued?

#I dont wish to be offensive or ignorant, im just at a loss to understand.

[Yvonne]

Hiya just like to reply from a breeders point of view, i don't rescue as well but know others do. I have found that the vast majority of rabbits in rescues are cross breeds, a brc registered breeder will only be breeding to improve there lines so would not produce cross breeds. I know pure bred rabbits end up in rescues as well and i know brc registered people are responsible for some of these which i totally disagree with. I feel that if i make the decision to mate my rabbits then all offspring are my responsibility and it is my job to find homes for them or care for them here, i would never dump my rabbits on a rescue, i know they have enough to cope with.

If a brc rung rabbit finds its way into a rescue please give the brc a call with the number and they will be able to tell you the breeder of the rabbit plus all registered keepers. If a rabbit has been mistreated in anyway they will investigate. You will also find that alot of breeders, if they discover a rabbit bred from them has ended up in rescue will take it back either to keep or rehome again themselves.

Yvonne

[scotratrescue]

Hi again,

apologies if ive offended, i dont really have a way of putting my point of view across sometimes which doesnt sound as if im getting at anyone.

Ive had dozens of netherland dwarfs come to me, and while i know some breeders out there try to be responsible for their buns, others arent quite as indiscriminate.

Im not saying all breeders are like this, but the purebred rabbits, can sometimes be problematic, their genes are responsible, whilst i know many breeders dont want a sick animal, many of the netherland dwarfs end up in rescues, because the owners can no longer afford the vet bills.

Ask any vet in the country and the netherland dwarf has one of the highest in the country for problems, the breeders (as a whole not individuals) have bred a rabbit for its size, but as the jawbone and teeth are the last to develop from an evolutionary side of things, you end up with a rabbit which has been stunted, but the jaw and teeth remain normal sized. which in turn caused huge huge problems for the poor wee bun.

Many of the "crossbreeds" Ive found are actually healthier buns than some of the pure breds. Rabbit breeding is becoming like the dog world, they keep breeding all these kind of weird and wonderful shapes, from a human aesthitc point of view, with no regard to the poor animals.

This is going on in ALL animals, name any purebred dog and one can come back with all the problems associated with the breed.

I for one like to see all the new colours etc, but i wish theyd do it without causing any detrimental effects on the actual animal, as many of the colours seem to be carried on the same gene as a particular trait.

i.e blues (not in rabbits, im no expert on rabbit breeds or breeding) in rats, cause the same gene to cause cannabism and difficult births associated with the fibrinogen (causes blood to clot),
the rex, i know the rexes are different in rabbits, but rex rats, suffer untold skin problems, due to the curly coat.

Again sorry if i offend, im terrible at times, i dont mean to, it kinda comes across as if im getting at someone in particular which im not.lol

[Tamsin]

Its difficult to ask questions like these but I think your doing well on the not offending. They are important points to think about. You might find reading back some of the older topics interesting as there have been lots of suggestions raised. I'll sumerise one for you.

There are several different types of breeder. There are those who accidentally or not breed their pet for fun, then realise they can't find homes or it gets out of control and rescues are called in to pick up the pieces. Then there are 'backyard breeders' those that breed for profit usually in large quantities to supply the pet trade. Then there are brc breeders how breed towards a standard (often for showing) if you talk to them you'll find they laugh if you suggest there is any profit to be made.

Actual numbers of brc bred rabbits ending up in rescues are very small as the mostly go to other members or carefully choosen pet homes. They are also likely to be healthy rabbits as genetic defects like teeth problems are not showable. Very few sell through petshops.

The main problem comes from those breeders who mass produce for the pet trade, as not only do they supply large numbers of rabbits they don't have any concern for health. They just want cute babies that will sell.

We do need breeders, life expecany of bunnies is only 8ish years so if we stopped now they'd be gone then not in twenty. The people we need to stop breeding are the bad ones, the ones contributing to the rabbit numbers in rescues and breeding without concern for health.

Many of the brc produced rabbits aren't taking homes away from rescue rabbits because they go to other breeders or people that want to show rather then those who would have had a rescue rabbit instead. So a breeder that rescues are cater for two different sorts of people. They have pedigree rabbits for those that want to breed/show and rescues for those wanting pets. I think its actually a positive thing, the other option would be for them to breed more rabbits for those wanting pets :)

Tam

[Clare Green]

I have always had very rigid anti-breeding views. I would like to know how many animals a BRC person would be likely to breed to get their perfect show quality rabbit?

[kimbun's mum]

I think that like everything in life there is god and bad in all. There are some realy rsponsible breeders and some who are only in it for the money - it is the same with all animals not just rabbits.

From my own experience I can say that Aggie was a show bun and even had her ring on - she was dumped at the SSPCA and had been in there for months before I took her.

I never even realised she was a "posh" bun - I only took her because she had been in the longest (and Lynda's piccy made her look so sweet) - it was only once we got her home we noticed the ring.

I don't think Pie & Mash are cross breeds either. Kim was a bit of a mix and I am not sure about Twinkle.

lol Pam

[Rexy bexy]

I have always had very rigid anti-breeding views. I would like to know how many animals a BRC person would be likely to breed to get their perfect show quality rabbit?

that can depend for some people it can take yrs to get a really good show rabbit some times it can just be pot luck a really good one can pop up in a litter, but i dont breed any old rabbit, i think what im going to put with what and when im going to breed it for instance about a month bk i was going to m8 some up but 1st i went and brought a new calender first cause i knew easter was coming early a realised the rabbits would be ready to leave just b4 easter so i have waited and there is one litter that should be ready after easter and another im waiting a bit longer. I dont just breed the 1st to male and female that pop along iv waited monthes and monthes for one male, so i dont just keep mating rabbits hoping one good show rabbit will pop out, i think b4 i m8.
but as already said with every good there is a evil there r good breeders and bad breeders, good pet owners and bab pet owners
becky

[Fluffybunny]

I have always had very rigid anti-breeding views. I would like to know how many animals a BRC person would be likely to breed to get their perfect show quality rabbit?

That's a very difficult question to answer, Clare, because, as Becky says it could take years or if you start off with some show-winning pedigree ones it could take just 1 or 2 litters.
However it's not just 1 show rabbit that people work towards when deciding to get into rabbit breeding, it's the whole line that requires alot of dedication for them all to become show winners.
There are some breeders with just a few breeding rabbits, like me, or there are some people with 60+! It all depends on 1) how long that persons been breeding 2) if they keep many many breeds and 3) to keep so many that breeder must be getting somewhere for them all to be good enough to continue breeding with them and improving their line, closer to the standard.
There are many 'back-yard breeders' who breed diseased animals just for the pet trade, or some breeders with rabbits in the life of luxury with a 6ft hutch! I don't think it is fair to tar all breeders with the same brush, and...alot can be learned from these people who have had rabbits for 50 years and I bet none go straight into rescues from the breeder - maybe it is a pet owner that the breeder sells to, but they move abroard or something similar which means they can no longer keep it. Breeders certainally don't contribute directley to the rabbits which are in rescues.
Hope this clears somethings up for you.

[scotratrescue]

Hi all,

hope no one minds me adding my tuppence worth, I do agree that there are good and bad breeders. However i have to disagree with the statement saying breeders are not directly responsible for buns being in rescue.

I had to take in 14 baby buns, from a very reliable "good" breeder, who has won many many shows her name i cant disclose as this is part of my agreement to any owner when i agree to take them in.

these buns had been with the owner for a few months and she couldnt find homes for them, she no longer wanted them because they werent up to scratch, they were mismarked, i dont know enough to argue the points of why a spot, or marking is in the wrong place, but this was the reason, the bun in question had 16 of which only two came up to scratch. I felt this was a lot of buns for one litter, im assuming this was a one off, but the mom was bred every year because of her good track record, the next again year i was asked to take her, cos she was too old to have more kits, and she produced another two litters that werent up to scratch.

Breeding i do believe is pot luck, unless you work in a lab manipulating genes and traits, there is no way any breeder can predict the outcome of any matings, other than your standard mendelsohns square.

Now perhaps she was not quite many of the breeders, and breeders who dont have buns up to scratch they find homes for, however, the amount of rabbits in rescue, pedigree and crossbreeds, is horrendous, i firmly believe this is a direct result from breeders, whether they be good or bad.

Most of the buns i have in at the moment, arent crossbreeds. I think in the last five years ive only ever had a handful of crossbreeds, ive never had any rare breeds, other than angoras, and they are not the easiest buns to care for and i dont think they are that rare.

A recent rescue from the sspca last year, was called into a house, in which the buns at the front were kept in immaculate conditions, the ones not quite up to scratch were left to fend for themselves in a barn.

The recent petition in the states calling for the toughest punishment was a high quality show breeder. With many many trophies and rosettes etc.

How can you tell really what is a good and bad breeder?

I dont mean to sound harsh, but when youve seen as many animals, not just buns (which we have the highest record of abuse and neglect for), you cant really agree with breeding. If you go to a sweet shop for a mars bar and they are sold out, you come back with something else surely the same i assume would be for rabbits.

I have had a few people looking for specific breeds or not just rabbits, and they have taken the time to come to me (i live in the middle of nowehre) they are more than happy to take another breed or colour if i dont have the type they wish.

What makes one bun different from another, other than size, and requirements, whats the difference between a fawn lop and black and white, they both requrie the same things, albeit personalities may differe somewhat.

Many of the pedigree breeds are becoming like the dog world, where the breeds are carrying certain traits now surely that is not a good thing.

Vets agree the netherland dwarf is genetic disaster area they have been bred so small, problems are inherent. not all breeds of rabbit have problems i dont think, but it is certainly becoming a problem.


okay ive had my rant lolo, :lol: :oops:

[Tamsin]

Was the breeder you took the rabbits from a BRC member? If so you can report them to the BRC who'll investigate and might revoke their membership. You can either give the name or they can be traced by the ring number if they were wearing rings.

Tam

[Fluffybunny]

I think that it is the breeders responsibility to find homes for the babies they breed - be it well marked or mis marked ones...they shouldn't just go to the easiest route possible and dump them on a rescue. And if they can't find homes for them then, no they shouldn't be breeding that many.
However my views are that whether a rabbit is up to show standard or not, the owner and breeder does have every right to rehome it, it's just the mismarked ones are the first to go....as who would want to continue breeding with something that is going to produce more mis-marked - which is surely better in the long run as it is just that one being rehomed not 5 of its babies too :idea:
I don't think that you will get very far with the BRC to be honest...as long as the buns were happy and healthy there is no reason or rule to say how many rabbits that person breeds - or what outlets they use to sell them...these aren't my views, just what they will say i think.
Off my soap box now

[scotratrescue]

Im not trying to antagonise anyone by the way i keep going on about this, but what is the real difference between on rabbit that has the wrong marking and another one that does?

It boils down to the selfishness or vanity of humans that cast one away in favour of another, i feel every bun or any animal deserves to be treated equally.

You could never prefer one to another with children so why does it have to be that way in the first place.

I know we dont live in an ideal world where everyone is equal, i jsut feel its wrong to keep one bun cos its got perfect marking and discard the other cos its not up to scratch, or its not as aesthetically pleasing.


As for reporting to the brc, they couldnt give a toss how many buns end up in rescues, i wrote to the committee already, saying i was concerend about the numbers of rabbits being discarded (albeit rehomed) their arguement was that all their buns are well cared for, and surprise surprise, its up to the individual breeder if they feel their rabbit isnt of show quality. I also wrote to the house rabbit society asking if they could offere advice, to even minimalise the amount of buns in rescue, or being put down cos there is no homes for them. Ive never had to do it myself, cos i refuse to take any more than i can care for properly, but other rescues have to take the line wher ethe oldest resident goes to the little room at the end of the corridor.

I dont know what happens to the buns i cant take in, some are dumped, we have a wild population here that are black and white in the town of annan, so i can assume it goes on all over.

it is a difficult debate, i dont think there are any rights and wrongs, be it good/bad breeders, as a whole the country has a huge problem with unwanted buns, and that is what i feel counts, why breed more when there are dozens. Perhaps if we had an amnesty every couple years where petstores and breeders alike dont breed until we can rehome the rescue buns. no easy answers im afraid. :cry:

[Tamsin]

The BRC have recently said that they will investigate reports from rescues of breeders dumping rabbits on them. You just need to provide the ring numbers and details so they can track the breeder.

The brc do not want breeders dumping rabbits on rescues not only because in itself its bad but also it gives the brc and other breeders a bad name.

I'm not saying the brc couldn't do more but it is worth taking advantage of the ways in which they will help.

Tam

[Rexy bexy]

ok then just a thought, i might a stupid idea but but just something that sprung into my head :lol:
this is just something else i like to point out, there r so many unwanted a mistake litters about and ever more increasing, that we should make nutering more aware to people.
but what would proberbly help is that breeders should have a lisence and ever so often it would have to be reneuwed and should have investigator cheaking on them ever so often and this is proberlby hard to do it was just a thought and this would proberbly help the cut down in numbers of rabbits. And maybe there should only be certain breeders like brc members that dont just breed for the pet trade as there r so many people about who breed for pet shops and just pets in genral and i know quite a few brc members who wont sell to people who breed just purley for pets.
oh also maybe ever person who owns a rabbit should have a license too for every rabbit like they used to with dogs.
becky

[scotratrescue]

here here becky

thats just what i think, i was asked to contribute my thoughts, as many rescues were asked, what they would like to see in the new animal health bill.

I mentioned that all rescues and breeders should be licensed, as there are rescues that are bad as well, im probably an in betweeny, i dont have all the mod cons and finances to turn my hovel farm into a state of the art rescue centre, as i dont get funded, but i do think rescues and any animal orientated place should be checked, the only problem with that idea was they are thinking of introduced quite a hefty fee for registration, which would certainly put me and a lot of other people i know out of the rescue business, as the cost would just be taken from the animal care we give.


There are absolutely hundreds and hundreds of breeders, of various species of animals, and trying to regulate them would cost, which is where the registration fee comes in, its okay for large rescues like the sspca/rspca and funded rescues and sanctuaries, but for the small ones like myself, i suppose i dont have to do this, i guess my life would be a helluva lot less stressful if i didnt take animals in need, but i couldnt imagine my life any other way. i probably need them more than they need me, so i suppose some breeders may think this way also.

its a toughie, with no easy answer, just a lot of disagrrements lol

[bunnyhuggger]

Just to add to this Donna, I don't know about where you are but in our area we don't get very much support from the SPCA. I have reported a rogue breeder on several occasions but the inspector always says there's nothing wrong as all the animals are alive, fed and watered. It's so frustrating. This breeder has bred a variety of animals including horses, she was banned from keeping any animals for 12 years after a local vet reported her for cruelty to horses. Now she's at it again, and this time it's rabbits, I can't do a thing about it. She sells rabbits for £3 (adults) and £5 (kits). She goes into overdrive at Easter. Bear the angora was left outside in a wire pet carrier, this was his 'hutch'. He was left out in all weathers, his fur was matted solid, and still the inspector said there was nothing wrong. It's so disheartening. A lady saw him when she went to get a bun for her granddaughter, and felt sorry for him. The breeder gave him to her for nothing. The lady kept him for a week before bringing him to me as she couldn't cope with him and her granddaughter was terrified of him. Bear was taken to the vet for clipping and the vet found several scars on his body. The breeder was using horse clippers to clip him and had caught his skin in umpteen places. Bear was terrified and covered in poo. It was heartbreaking to see him. His back legs are deformed and he has a screw tail. For all this, he is the most loving, funny, sweet natured bunny in the world.

It's almost like the inspector doesn't care or can't cope with all the work he has to do. There are three inspectors to cover an area which stretches from Perth to Aberdeen, and they work in a shift pattern, so usually there is only one or two available at any one time.

[scotratrescue]

Hi lynda,

yep know exacty what you are saying most rescues have a tale to tell regarding the sspca.the only support i got from them was as a dumping ground when i lived in perth, as you say unless there is down and out cruelty they are nowhere to be seen, no one regulates the sspca, they do the best they can i suppose, but when there are bigwigs spending money on millions of pounds worth of admin buildings and investing in stocks and shares than employing more officers, i guess it wont change.

Im very much out in the sticks and our nearest office is stranraer, so i dont get dumped on as much here than i was in perth, our officer was probably the same one you have, or one of them anyway, i got a bollicking for removing animals from a house (my son had the keys he lived there from time to time), the buns were in an appalling state, the lad had problems to say the least, budgies with their claws piercing their own feet they were that long, we had a long haired piggie he thought was a rabbit and it had died, cos to the cocciodstat in the rabbit food which you know is toxic piggies, many of the buns had urine burns so sore they were weeping on the soles of their feet were raw, matted fur, maggots youname it they had it, the sspca did have to help me in that i had committed an offence by removing them, witouth the police, so they tracked the lad down to have them signed over, then what, he said he wanted the budgie back, no charges, nothing i was so mad.

when one died immmediattely after giving birth, i found myself at a loss of what to do with the kits (i didnt know how to feed them at that time, and tried like most small furries every two hours), when i asked him for advice, he told me I SWEAR TO GOD THIS IS TRUE, put them in a plastic bag and slam them hard against the concrete floor, because, as he put it , there are too many to rehome as it is, without more buns being born into the situation.He told me i was being cruel trying to feed them myself, and theyd die. as it turned out they did suffer, they lasted 10 days, with most of them dying in the first few days , seizures, bloat, at that time there was no internet, and no one knew how to feed buns, once at night and once in the morning, with me feeding them every two hours, i killed them, by the toxin gathering intheir stomach. As bad as i felt, i wouldve tried again,


One officer on duty covering such a large area, i suppoose they have to prioritise the huge workload they have.some are good some arent,like everything else, theres only so much that can be done, and i believe having an amnesty to stop petshops and breeders jsut till we sort the vast amount of rescue, i know people enjoy breeding, and im not saying put a stop to it entirely (although i would like that lol only specific registeres) jsut to give the country time to recoup and home the buns we have already.

[taylor v 109]

I myself would never give a rabbit of mine to a pet shop and in an ideal ever person who bus a pet should have to buy a licence, the general public on the whole have no idea how to look after rabbits ore any pet and it should be made a lot harder to buy one. I breed very few litters every year, the ones that dont have show quality are still better raised and socialized, than the ordinary breeder and therfore make the best pets but my rabbits tend to go to other breeders. Sometimes one or two will go to privet pet homes on the understanding that if at a later date they need to rehome that it comes back to me, i invest a great deal of time into my rabbits and care for every one even the ones i dont show. As for the rescue side of it im not funded at the monment although the rescue i used to help out now want me to come back. the reason i do it is because i have a vast experience of rabbit care, and good knowledge of heath problems that i can deal with without having to keep taking the rabbits to the vets so reducing the cost. My vet and i are in close contact and she trusts my knowledge on treatments to give me the drugs i need and give the treatments., i also have the time to do the job as im at home all day and can deal with the visits and the callers.My hours are 24-7 to rabbits and possable homers and the people know that they can call on me at all times if there is a problem, many come back to me for boarding so i can keep an eye on most of the rabbits i deal with. Last year i rehomed 80 rabbits, we are one of the biggest homers of rabbits in our area because of the space and time that i give for nothing.I think that im very good at doing both things very welland there is no conflict of interrests I KNOW I DONT ADD to the numbers of homless rabbits, and work my socks of to make sure that every rabbit wether mine or rescue leads a happy life.I lay the blame squarly with mainly back st breeders and the few bad profesional breeders. But dont tar all breeders as the same, i know as you do whot can happen to a rabbit that may have a living owner but an un edgucated one. This can only be sorted by making people more aware whot complex little creatures rabbits are and if looked after and more importantly well breed by a caring knowledgable breeder whot a lovely addition to a family they can be. I dont know if you know or not but places like pets at home who sell large amount of rabbits get them from one breeder, who by the sear numbers involved cannot be breeding good pets because they cannot have the time to rear the babys properly and give them the socializing that they need. The vast majority of rabbits that come in to me have done so because the children that have them are put of by their reluctance to be picked up and stroked, this all goes back to the mass producer that hasent the time or the motivation to do the job properly. The only way i think to make money out of rabbits is to severly cut corners, witch i would never do. My rabbits cost me a lot of money and i go without a lot of things to have them, but i love rescuing and the showing and i have a clear consience that i dio both well. val

[scotratrescue]

Whilst i do agree many breeders do have a lot of knowledge to impart regarding the rearing of buns and education, as a rescuer i see many cases of neglect and cruelty and often things a breeder would have not seen.

As ive said in previous posts, im having to learn a lot about rabbits quickly due to the increasing incidence of many diseases and infections i havent seen before, and neither have many breeders.

BReeders of show rabbits as a majority do take better care of their buns, cos it wouldnt do to have an ill or malformed bun taking part in a show.

However, if there were no buns available from breeders, then the obvious choice would be to take a rescue. As has happened in recent cases ive had.

people looking for specific breeds, at the moment i have 3 still looking for various breeds, but they did take a couple of rescues buns whilst they await.(probably wait a long time for the breeds i have on a waiting list).

What i am trying to say is for every breeder finding a home for one of their mismarked etc, i believe that could be a home for a rescue bun.

I also believe that if a breeder were to be presented with a bun with say tooth problems, there is no way they are going to spend masses of money on one rabbit, or very few are anyway.

My vet bill for buns requiring attention just in the last quarter was £670.

that involved, 3 operations on one rabbit for chronic tooth problems, spaying and vaccinations.

On the breeding side, again not fully aware of the implications and ages etc for breeding rabbits, but am very familiar with the small furries.

For instance a rat is bred between 6 and 12 months. Rats lives are becoming shorter due to the breeding. when i was a kid it wasnt unusual to have a five year old rat, now that figure is more likely to be your doing extremely well if its 2 years.

however, they are bred between those ages, and litters produces, what if a problem is discovered after its 12months old, as a rat can produces a litter theoretically every3 weeks, but breeders will breed around 5 times a year from one rat. that is five litters in one year that potentiall carry a genetic problems, in which time other breeders have taken litters to breed from the ones rehomed to start with. In the rat world that is an awful lot of rats.

so for instance say a breeder breeds twice from one bun at 2 years old, some buns are not born with the genetic fault, they acquire it later i assume making comparisons with the rats.

Cancerous tumours can be genetic, in rabbits as well as rats, if a bun or rat develops these tumours, after its been bred from, thats an awful lot of potential illness in buns.

There is also the risk of uterine diseases, which have a higher figure in breeders be buns, dogs or rats.

No one is right or wrong here, but from a rescue point of view there are far too many buns in rescues, or worse being dumped, all i think is needed is an amenesty from breeders and petshops alike for a certain period of time so rescues buns get the same chance of a loving home.

You are right in saying that many breeders sell to other breeders, but as already pointed out, some things develop after they are bred.

Im probably not putting this into words how to explain what i really mean.

but the bottom line is im never ever going to change the mind of a breeder, and no one will change my opinions either, so the problems will continue until it spirals out of control. 33000 buns a year (quoted from another site, but ive been told this is a higher figure than that, 33,000 is the sspca figures alone) end up in rescues, how is that, are all those figures coming from bad breeders.

pets at home take anyones buns, rats, gerbils etc, yes they are mass produced, but they also take local breeders mistakes.

[Yvonne]

I understand exactly where your coming from Donna, as a rescue you see the worse of the worse, the way some people treat animals is unbelievable, not always down to deliberate cruelty but simply not knowing and bothering to find out the correct way to look after the animal they have chosen as a pet. I no longer speak to my neighbour as we had many arguments about her letting her daughter have various pets from a young age and insisting she took sole responsibility for the care of the pet, with no reminders when she knew full well the child had forgotten to feed it or clean it out. Her attitude was, maybe her daughter will learn her lesson if the animal dies. Because of this, 2 hamsters have starved to death in the living room in full view of the adults in the house, a rabbit was killed by a fox because nobody could be bothered to get it in at night, and at 12 this girl has now moved on to goldfish and is buying a new 1 every couple of days as she can't keep them alive. The petshop has refused to sell them to her because of her age so her mom is now going with her to get the next victim.

But not all are like that, most people who have pets are genuine animal lovers and will take the time to learn about the animal they plan to have before hand. I offer free advice to people in my area on the proper care of rabbits and even go and clip claws for those that don't feel they can do it themselves. I have also taken in rabbits when the owners discovered the rabbits they had living together where not same sex as they had thought. (usually not noticing until they find the babies)

On the breeding side, my main breed is the netherland dwarf, the average litter size is 2 and i only breed from my does once or twice a year so i don't have masses of babies to find homes for. The only litter i have at the moment I'm keeping both and this often happens. If i do have any i need to rehome they often go to other breeders and i have very few that require pet homes.

Yvonne

[Adele]

[quote="scotratrescue"]
Hiya Donna, thank you for raising some very good and interesting points.
As Diplomat on this Forum, please can I just add a few thoughts in reply to your comments.

BReeders of show rabbits as a majority do take better care of their buns, cos it wouldnt do to have an ill or malformed bun taking part in a show.(QUOTE Donna)

As Tamsin has said before, there are good breeders and bad breeders, just like good and bad Rescue set ups.
The problem I have with your statement, is that it implies that breeders only take good care of their rabbits to present them at shows.
This is not true in many cases, as show rabbits can be and are beloved pets to breeders. You only have to see how all the breeders using RU talk about their rabbits to see this.
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What i am trying to say is for every breeder finding a home for one of their mismarked etc, i believe that could be a home for a rescue bun.(QUOTE Donna)


Well I agree and disagree with this :roll: :lol: There are different reasons that people want to keep bunnies, so there are different markets if you like.
I think it is important that freedom of choice as to whether you get a rescue rabbit or pure breed from a Breeder should remain
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I also believe that if a breeder were to be presented with a bun with say tooth problems, there is no way they are going to spend masses of money on one rabbit, or very few are anyway.(Quote Donna)

Again, this is making assumptions and generalisations, you have to take each breeder on their own merits.
Some people who keep pet rabbits opt not to pay out for necessary Vet bills too, even if they can afford to.
It is not because someone is or is not a breeder that makes them less or more likely to take proper care of their rabbits.
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There is also the risk of uterine diseases, which have a higher figure in breeders be buns, dogs or rats.(QUOTE Donna)

Do you have statistics to back this statement up?
I believe that breeding Does have a slightly reduced risk of getting uterine cancer, which is the same in other animals and humans that produce offspring.
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No one is right or wrong here, but from a rescue point of view there are far too many buns in rescues, or worse being dumped, all i think is needed is an amenesty from breeders and petshops alike for a certain period of time so rescues buns get the same chance of a loving home.(QUOTE Donna)


I think this is one possible idea, but it would be difficult to enforce and again takes away individual choice . I think perhaps very strict regulations on breeding would be a better option.
You say that you are not saying that breeders are in the wrong, but you have suggested stopping them breeding altogether, albeit for a specidied space of time.
I think it is important to compromise on this, address the problem of the numbers of rabbits in rescues, but also keep breeding bunnies in check.
I understand that the BRC has strict guidelines already in place, but I am not a rabbit breeder so they would be better placed to comment on this,
************************************************** ***

You are right in saying that many breeders sell to other breeders, but as already pointed out, some things develop after they are bred.(QUOTE Donna)

Problems also develop after taking on rescue bunnies who have been either neglected and traumatised :?

************************************************** **********

but the bottom line is im never ever going to change the mind of a breeder, and no one will change my opinions either, so the problems will continue until it spirals out of control. 33000 buns a year (quoted from another site, but ive been told this is a higher figure than that, 33,000 is the sspca figures alone) end up in rescues, how is that, are all those figures coming from bad breeders.

.[/quote Donna]

I do not think it is a matter of changing anyones mind about whether to breed bunnies or not, but to ensure that strict regulations are in place so that Rescues and breeders alike work together to address the problem. :wink: :D

[Tamsin]

For instance a rat is bred between 6 and 12 months. Rats lives are becoming shorter due to the breeding. when i was a kid it wasnt unusual to have a five year old rat, now that figure is more likely to be your doing extremely well if its 2 years.

however, they are bred between those ages, and litters produces, what if a problem is discovered after its 12months old, as a rat can produces a litter theoretically every3 weeks, but breeders will breed around 5 times a year from one rat. that is five litters in one year that potentiall carry a genetic problems, in which time other breeders have taken litters to breed from the ones rehomed to start with. In the rat world that is an awful lot of rats.


I've had rats both from rescue and from a breeder. I think some of the responsibility has to be put on the people buying the animal.

I for one would never buy from a breeder that produced 5 litters a year from one rat (or any other animal). The reason I went to a breeder was because I could know the history of the rat, the breeder had recorded the parents going back 6 generations and could tell me what problems each of those had had during their life and in older ones the cause and age of death. The breeder I went to also had old retired rats, rats she had had castrated to live with others and would not include unknown animals in the breeding.

What I ended up with was a very well handled, healthy, friendly little girl who lived to three and a half.

When you take on a rescued animal you have no idea what you are getting, there is often little or no history, your luckily if you even know the actual age. Not everyone is willing to make that commitment.

There are good and bad breeders, good and bad petowners and good and bad rescues. If people buying animals considered a bit more where they got them from and people selling them where they went to things would work out much better.

There certainly needs to be a reduction on breeders but I for one would rather see the irresponsible ones go rather than the good ones. The trouble is its the good ones is easier to talk to, the bad ones couldn't care less what you think so long as they get their profit.

Tam

[scotratrescue]

the question on what makes a good breeder comes to mind. A good breeder cares for their animals yes, but what is the actual cost to the bun?

Im not having a go at anyone, i am really trying hard to understand from a breeders point of view why they breed at all. for example, show bunnies what does it matter to anyone, whether these buns win prizes, there is no way the bun would choose to sit in a cage 3 tier high and wish to be handled by all and sundry. Breeders say their buns are quite happy, but how do they actually know. A bun will not show stress, they are a predated on animal, their motto is to stay absolutely still in the event of danger, or stressfull situations, im not saying that buns dont enjoy being manhandled, but surely some stress is induced at an early age when the bun is being trained for this sort of thing? I also think that the shows benefit humans more than the bun, no bun would want to live a life on show, its not in their genetic nature.

They have changed breed standards a few times for various breeds. So the breeder has to keep up with what some officials say is the breed standard.

The netherland dwarf for example, is according to vets a genetic screw up, the stats are available freely on the net. Breeders of netherland dwarfs, are more than happy to continue breeding, when the vets and concerning bodies alike all agree, that many of the jaw/teeth problems are associated with the breed, because the jawbone evolution wise has the longest time to change. they are bred smaller and smaller, with the normal jawbone of a normal sized rabbit. Not all dwarfs suffer this, i agree, but they do still suffer more than any other breed.If in doubt of what im saying ask any vet experienced in rabbit problems.

They are still bred tho, but not to the rabbits advantage, as far as breeding to keep a line going, the line wouldnt exist in the first place, had it not been crossing one rabbit with another. As well as the risk of cross infection of buns at shows although perhaps not common, can still happen.

Breeding does not benefit the bun, it is based purely on the humans attitude of hierarchy and aesthetics. The same thoughts im better than you, perhaps subconscious, or the feeling my rabbit won, has feelings of elation, the rabbit doesnt give a hoot whether it has won this thatand the next thing, its purely a human need. Which can never be eradicated.

Breeding is not an exact science,how do breeders know they are not breeding problems into the rabbit that did not exist before? Unless its on a genetic base, some anomalies are carried with certain genes, ie. blue rats, carry a gene which causes birthing problems, because of the lack of fibrinogen a blood clotting agent is on the same chromosome as the blue colour. Not all blue rats have problems, but they carry it.

AS for stats for uterine diseases, i dont really have to quote, it is common knowledge regarding any animals, spay them reduces the risk of uterine disease, i believe its on most rabbit sites. So im really not going to waste any time discussing this.

I really am trying hard to see things from a breeders point of view to understand their reasons. perhaps one can write why they feel the need to breed, what benefits they get, how they feel when a baby bun theyve watched grow up be rehomed to someone else.

What are the pros and cons of breeding, do they think its for them or for the rabbit.

Rabbits in the wild are overrun, because there is an environment to support lots of litters. With any animal, its self managing population. myxi was introduced to kill them all, but due to natural selection, many are now immune to it, this cannot be created in any lab, theyve tried for centuries, to selectively bree animals immune to specific diseases, they cant do it unless they vaccinate them. All our pets originated from mans manipulation and interference of the wild bunny, but with less productive results.

Everyone adores babies i understand, as for rescues, a lot of rescues do come with a background, albeit we cannot perhaps trace back generations, but many are born in rescues, and a good history is available from birth. you are correct in saying we dont always know the history of a bun coming in,we can only correct any behaviour problems.


Not all show buns are well behaved, is this the work of a bad breeder? it may have perfect markings, but that isnt too great when you cant get near it? some are nervous, but as its a good show rabbit, are they still bred from? Are the kits rehomed cos of its colours, do they continue to breed from it, ive been assured they dont breed from a rabbit that is aggressive or nervous, but it still goes to shows? in which case the BRC have allowed a bad breeder to show animals?

There are buns which scratch and claw the judges as quoted from the person who recently attended. I cant speak for every rescue, but all the buns i rehome do not have behavioural problems, they do not scratch and bite and try to get loose. We cant rehome animals like that because the reputation that buns can be well behaved buns, is shattered. any behavioural problems which arent corrected tend to stay with us, as are health problems. People want nicely behaved healthy animals.

i would like to see registration of all breeders and rescues, in the ideal world we wouldnt need rescues in the first place, but we dont live in the ideal world, we have to make the best of the situation which isnt always a great way to work.

I seem to be standing alone on this one, regardless of how many people write and tell me they believe in what im saying, my backs against the wall as regards my breeding opinions. I wont change the mind of a breeder, their reasons will always be justified in their mind. No matter whether they are good and bad breeders. :P

[Tamsin]

I'd certainly like to see rescues and breeders registered too. I agree with alot of what your saying. There are a lot of breeders out there just as your describe and we'd be better off without them. I do think we need some breeders (bunnies have to come from somewhere) but I think their could be alot of improvements too.

Its the practical side thats difficult. Registration realies on the govt. and if we wait for them then we'll all be old and wrinkly before anything gets done :D

Tam

[scotratrescue]

:lol: old and wrinkly yup :D

unless somelike minded people get together and promote change, yeup old and wrinkly, only toruble is, im old and wrinkly already :lol: :lol: :wink:

[anon101]

One point we are all forgetting is even if breeders/pet shops are registered its Joe Public who is going to go in and buy the Rabbit at the end of the day.

So the Rabbit's fate ultimately rests with its owner. If Joe Public stopped buying Rabbit's Pet Shops would stop selling and breeders who supply pet shops and Jo Public would be out of business.

Where there is a demand there will always be a suppler.

The majority of rescue Rabbits are unwanted pets for one reason or another. We need to educate the public to make a difference.

Louise

[Adele]

[quote="scotratrescue"]
Breeding does not benefit the bun, it is based purely on the humans attitude of hierarchy and aesthetics. The same thoughts im better than you, perhaps subconscious, or the feeling my rabbit won, has feelings of elation, the rabbit doesnt give a hoot whether it has won this thatand the next thing, its purely a human need. Which can never be eradicated.(Quote Donna)


I agree in the main with what you are saying Donna.
You state that breeding does not benefit the rabbit, but those does that have at least one litter (or so I understand) have a reduced risk of getting uterine cancer without the need for spaying and those associated surgical risks.
Breeding is a natural part of life for animals and humans, but of course in the wild number of bunnies (and those bunnies that are unfit) are controlled by predators.
In captivity then, numbers are needed to be controlled by regulation, and the standard of bunnies bred to be maintained by good breeders with sound knowledge of genetics.
To stop breeding full stop may help the numbers of rabbits in rescue initially, but on the other hand it prevents a rabbit from a natural process..ie. having kittens. So is this in the welfare of the rabbit? I am not saying this is my personal perspective just that their are many ways of looking at things. :wink:
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AS for stats for uterine diseases, i dont really have to quote, it is common knowledge regarding any animals, spay them reduces the risk of uterine disease, i believe its on most rabbit sites. So im really not going to waste any time discussing this.(QUOTE DONNA)


The trouble is that making statements without backing them up with evidence is hard for people to accept, as it looks like an opinion rather than fact :?
I know that spaying reduces the risk of uterine disease though as like lots of people here we have read about i from good sources. I was saying that from another angle it may be beneficial for the rabbit to have kittens as this offers a natural way of reducing the risk of uterine cancer.
There are many sides to the same coin. :wink:
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I really am trying hard to see things from a breeders point of view to understand their reasons. perhaps one can write why they feel the need to breed, what benefits they get, how they feel when a baby bun theyve watched grow up be rehomed to someone else(Quote Donna)

I think you are asking all the right questions Donna, and perhaps you will find some answers to your queries here, as we have some lovely rabbit breeders in the Forum who are very helpful :D

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i would like to see registration of all breeders and rescues, in the ideal world we wouldnt need rescues in the first place, but we dont live in the ideal world, we have to make the best of the situation which isnt always a great way to work.(QUOTE DONNA)

:thumb: that would be a good start Donna :D
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[kimbun's mum]

I know that this may seem a bit stupid but I was wondering if it would be possible for the governing body of rabbit breeders to limit the amount of litters that can be produced in a year.

If the owner of a pedigree dog wants to breed then they have to wait a certain period between litters (about 1 year I think) otherwise the litter cannot be KC registered therefore totally devaluing them.

I know that rabbits are different so that is why I am suggesting that the owner be limited that way those rogue ones that are only in it for the money would either have to limit their breeding or else be forced to sell their bunnies really cheap (which would not be worth their while). It would also stop all these baby bunnies being churned out.

just a 'thought.

lol Pam

[scotratrescue]

Great points guys, If we started with petshops being prohibited from selling livestock, i beleive this would drastically reduce the problem.

the breeders supplying the petstores would have to reduce the numbers bred. I believe, and this is personal opinion only, that the reason there are so many animals is cos its too easy to get hold of them.On recent phone call claimed she didnt really want a rabbit, she seen they were so cute when she went in with a friend for dogfood!!!!!!!A call i just took 40 minutes ago, is left with 9 baby rats, she loves babies, and thought it would be cool to have some, only the rat had more than she had homes for, a litter of 17, she kept two , six she found homes for, she didnt think her rat would have any more than 6-10 rats.!!!! So on the 22nd when the babies are old enough, i will be responsible for finding homes for 10 babies, rats being as hard to find homes as rabbits. Although i gave her a lecture in the best possible way, i dare say she will have babies again. I asked her where she got them, one came from a petstore, the other from a breeder. AS they have been crossbred the orginal breeder wont take any, but she never asked for the original rat back.

In my recent letter to the governemt(many rescues were consulted on the the new plans for the animal welfare act). I suggested this ( they wont do it, the pet industry is multi million pounds worth in taxes for starters), but it would help solve many problems not only in the sheer amounts that are put down each year cos there are not enough homes, but from the cruelty and neglect side of things as well.

If it were made harder for people to acquire animals, the problems would really drop.

To ban livestock sales, and to register only a certain amount of breeders, i think this would go a long way to reducing a lot of problems.


In a recent sspca survey, britain has the most animal rescues per square foot of land. I dont think this is a reputation to exactly brag about.


It is up to the little people to band together with one voice to make changes.

[Tamsin]

Certainly, reducing or stopping sales in petshops is a good move. I think that the breeders supplying these are most likely to come into the bad category so there are several benefits. Animals less readily available, bad breeders put out of business and less animals ending up in rescue.

Tam

[Yvonne]

Hi Donna, My main breed is the netherland dwarf and i have been breeding these for about 3 years now. I rabbit with a bad temperament is never used for breeding and neither is a rabbit with teeth problems. By carefully selecting my matings and using only rabbits in excellent health without genetic problems I can avoid producing babies with these problems. I have only had 1 rabbit with teeth problems in my time breeding and when this happened neither parent was ever used for breeding again. Most of my rabbits are extremely friendly, you get the odd one that will become hormonal around the 5-6 months age but this doesn't last and they grow out of it, just like teenagers really lol.

As for why i breed, well its not down to any 1 reason, I love my rabbits, they are my pets 1st, the show side is more for the social aspect, i get to spend the whole day surrounded by rabbits of all different breeds, many i would never have seen if i hadn't gone to shows and i get to talk rabbits all day long without anyones eyes glazing over which is generally what happens at home :roll:

Rabbits arent' manhandled at shows they are carefully carried from pen to table by stewards who are all rabbit lovers else they wouldn't be there. I often steward myself as its a great way to learn about other breeds. As for training at home, it doesn't cause the rabbits any stress, when people talk about training they are not talking about hour long sessions of forcing the rabbit to sit still, its all part of the daily handling a young rabbit gets so that they grow up used to people and friendly in order to make good pets. They will be picked up, held, cuddled and stroked, and sat on a firm surface, usually on a piece of carpet so they feel safe and there feet don't slide. This whole process takes just a couple of minutes a day and is all part of the socialising process.

Have to go now, there is a queue for the computer, will be back later.

Yvonne

[taylor v 109]

you say ive not seen the worst cases that can come in to rescue , i would like to ask how you know that, ive seen things that nobody should have to see, you think you are the only person that cares nobody is right all the time and untill you truely no everthing you should refrain from slagging off all breeders, cos you dont have the full facts. Last year juat as one exsamplea rabbit was brought in for rehoming and before i opened the box a smell hit me, there had been no mention of the rabbit not being well. I to the rabbit out and put it on a table, well you could not imagine the smell.I ran my hand down its back and felt loose skin, i lifted the skin and to my horrer the whole of the skin covering the back lifted of to reveile maggots eating him alive, it thats not horrific enough ive other stories i could tell. I bet i rehome a lot more rabbits than you and by your coments i know more as well. I am not going to post on this again because as you say people need to be better educated on both sides it seems .

[scotratrescue]

I was asked for statistics and quotes to substantiate my claim that breeders suffere a higher number of cases of uterine diseases including cancer, here are some very interesting reads.

quotes and the site

I would bet many of you reading this have never experienced uterine cancer in your herd. Therefore it is understandable that many breeders doubt the information passed out by many rabbit rescue groups, especially when they throw figures out such as 85% of all unspayed does will get uterine cancer.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Valley/1155/UC.html

they assume it has been plucked from thin air for propaganda purposes.

But it hasn't. Nor is it a guess. In fact, the 80% figure comes from a study conducted more than 40 years ago (Greene, 1958). Although the information was published in the scientific literature, it doesn't seem to have been taken on board by vets and rabbit experts until the houserabbit movement gained momentum in the 1990s


http://www.houserabbit.co.uk/rwf/articles/uterine.htm


What we do know is that uterine cancer is the commonest cancer of rabbits and is the end point of a gradual process becoming much more common with increasing age. The classic study (Greene, 1958) which is so widely quoted in houserabbit circles showed 4% of does had uterine cancer age under the age of 2-3 years of age, rising to 80% at 5-6 years. It doesn't make any difference whether the doe has been bred from or not (Adams, 1962) or what breed she is.


http://www.paw-talk.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-8988.html


there is an ongoing survey as i type, regarding uterine disease in rabbits.

http://www.uvm.edu/~jdion/pets/spay.html



http://www.hrschicago.org/neuterfr.html

I may have erred in saying breeders have more incidence, this was based purely on the facts of uterine diseases, it stands to reason they would have more incidence, cos their buns are unspayed.


There are also scientific journals on queryserver.com but they tend to be rather a bit more technical for what is needed here.

Dxx

[Yvonne]

On the incidence of uterine cancer in rabbits i can only comment on my own experiences. There is alot of information posted on the net but this doesn't mean its accurate, its difficult to verify sources especially when results quoted are from studies done in other countries.

I currently have 40 rabbits. I have never had a neutered rabbit all my animals are entire. I have never had a rabbit with cancer. My only losses have been kits never adults. I know uterine cancer is a problem in pet rabbits and would recommend that all rabbits that aren't to be used for breeding be spayed. But I also recognise that this is down to individual choice, surgery and anesthetic come with there own dangers and many people feel this carries a greater risk to there rabbit than the chance they may develop cancer. I respect that choice, it is theirs to make.

I also agree that breeders should be licenced, I think this would cut down on the people who think its a good idea to let there pet rabbits breed, with no thought to what breed the rabbits are and what is to become of the babies, I was approached by a lady at my childrens school who said she had 9 baby rabbits, did i want them as she had heard i kept rabbits. The petshop wouldn;t take them she said and she didn't know what to do with them. I asked her about them, age, sex, breed, her reply, they are 14wks old, don't know the sex as don't know how to tell, breed, well the dad has loppy ears and the mom has sticky up ears :cry:

These are the people that need to be stopped. I don't think the law will ever change to prevent petshops selling rabbits but i think a change that means petshops are only allowed to buy off licenced breeders would cut back on the people like this, though i expect as a result the classifieds of the local paper would be much longer.

I can't see myself ever stopping breeding but i know that i will only ever breed from healthy rabbits and will be personally responsible for finding homes for any that i don't keep. I will never dump my surplus on rescues and breeders who do this must be stopped, if they are brc registered, then report them, if there membership is revoked they can no longer buy rings or show so there is no point in them continuing to breed.

Yvonne

[Bunnyboarding]

Hi Donna,

I have been an exhibition breeder (small scale, rabbits cared for well, only select homes found for the very few babies I had available).Although not much time for this at the moment so not been breeding/showing recently. I too am deeply involved in rescue animals & own many myself.

When i read posts like this I often used to soul-search myself to just make sure I am always doing the right thing by my animals as I would not want it any other way.

I agree with your morals & commend people like you that devote time & care to animals that have been let down by others.

However, there are a few points I think i could make in relation to the subject....

I would like to point out that the badly bred Nethies you mention are produced predominantly by the 'churn-them-out' pet trade industry, or even by pet owners that bought these pet shop rabbits that either had accidental litters or thought it would be nice to have some babies. Nethies are particularly attractive to the pet trade as they have the 'small & cute' appeal that pet owners seem to look for, which is why the unscrupulous take them on for commercial purposes.

And yes, Pets at home & other pet chain stores "only use their own breeders" & nine times out of ten, no exhibition breeder will have heard of them!

I know a chap that bought a load of rabbits at the livestock market & various places & bred them all without a single thought to the background & what problems the babies might have developed. At the vets I locumed at, he was bringing in the adults with 'respiratory infection' & malocclusion, etc etc & didn't have a clue what the implications were if he bred from them (which he already had). The vet and I repeatedly advised him not to breed from them (quite bluntly too) & the reasons why, which went in one ear & out of the other.

The only thing he kept on about was what nethies, mini lops, etc had & what pretty colours they were & where he wanted to sell them. Quite frankly he ended up talking to himself because no-one wanted to know. In the end he couldn't give them away to the pet shops, and what he was still doing with them I've no idea!

There is no way that an experienced & conscientious breeder would even contemplate messing about with any rabbit of this background! In fact the majority of sensible breeders make it their duty to ensure that any such rabbits are not sent back into the 'breeding chain'.

Likewise If a judge saw anything medically wrong with a rabbit he would disqualify or report the exhibitor.

[scotratrescue]

http://www.rabbitrehome.org.uk/carrotchronicle/Newsletter7_2003.asp


Stimpy’s breed, netherland dwarf, also has it’s own welfare concerns. Stimpy is actually one of the few Netherlands we have encountered that does not have dental problems or broken bones. Netherland dwarfs are so prone to dental problems such as misalignment and overgrowing spurs because they have such tiny faces yet they have to fit the same amount of teeth in as any other breed of bunny.


This still happens with "good" breeders, because its a genetic fault, it is pure luck to have buns without this problems, the veterinary association has discussed this problems for years.

This has been a breeders problem, no one else introduced this problem to this bun, regardless of how good the breeder is, this will still happen, "good" breeders choose not to breed from a bun that has these problems, one bun could go on to win 40 ist place shows, this does not guarantee the kits will be of the same quality.

This is the thing i do not understand about breeding, if they know this problem existed then why continue to keep on breeding them, what happens to the poor buns bred that do have bad teeth because of this genetic problem, do they have to be put to sleep, or rehomed to someone who has to fork out a fortune on vet bills.

Another breeder will not be interested in a dwarf with these problems, so what happens to them?

Is it really fair to keep on breeding somethign in the hope they can "outbreed" (impossible on the level that breeders are cos its an evolutionary thing) do they keep breeding in the hope their kits will be okay? Are the ones with teeth problems condemned to a life of visiting the vet every six weeks to have their teeth burred down or removed.

Is this really fair on the bunny??


These are questions every individual can answer. If anyone doubts my word over this, ask any experienced rabbit vet.

[onyx_stud]

i am a BRC member, a breeder and i also take in unwanted or ill treated rabbits. [runs to take cover :wink: ]

i breed rabbits for exhibition. i only breed rabbits that are in optimum health and that i know do not carry any genetic traits and i only allow my does to have one or two litters a year .
any kits that i do not keep myself are first offered for sale to other breeders, any that are available after this are available for sale privately as pets.
any rabbits that are sold by me are supplied with a bag of rabbit pellets, birth details/pedigree, advised on the importance of getting bunny neutered/spayed and handed a care booklet.
i also give as much information as possible verbally to the new bunny owner (the last thing they want to do is read the booklets :roll: ) and make sure that they are fully aware that i am available both in person or at the end of the phone for any questions or problems they may encounter, no matter how trivial or silly it may seem. i am only too happy to have buns brought back to me for nail clipping or basic health checks.
Also all buns leaving me go with a bunnyback guarantee! if for any reason the bun should need rehoming (whether it is the bunny or owners fault), i am only too pleased to take them back and take responsibilty for them.

i know that many breeders also seem to take in unwanted or rescue buns.
it is not something that is planned, it just seems to happen.
most breeders care about rabbits! they care about rabbit welfare and do not like to see rabbits being neglected or suffering. because of this we are big softies and when people bring in their neglected pets/ lost and founds etc, we feel sorry for the poor buns and take it on ourselves to make them better and care for them until we find a new home.
i have lost count of the 'special' buns that i have taken in and time rehomed, all with food and care booklets and on the same terms as the pedigree buns.
any that cannot be rehomed (old, or terminally ill) stay with me for good!

show rabbits often live the life of riley!
if you visit a rabbit show you would be very unlikely to see a stressed rabbit. most buns will be seen either beached out relaxing or happily sitting watching all the comings and goings and sniffing all those lovely 'new' bunny smells.
when a show rabbit is taken from its pen by a steward and placed on the showing table it will again either settle down relaxed (not scared- the reactions are totally different) or take up its pose.
different breeds 'pose' different ways. this is not forced on them, it is a pose that they are happy to be in . show rabbits are handled alot from a very young age (days, some times hours old) they are routinley turned over onto their backs and given hygiene checks (clean bottoms)and when they are a few weeks old they are on a daily basis picked up and placed on a carpet/blanket covered surface, and gently encouraged to hold their pose. this literally only takes a couple of minutes and bun enjoys the attention. with time the rabbit will automatically assume the pose with little or no prompting.
show rabbits are kept in the best of health, fed good balanced diets and given lots of attention and stimulation.

***it is also worth taking note that it is not only pedigree rabbits that can be shown.
there are pet classes run at many shows. it doesn't matter what breed your bun is (or not as the case maybe..lol), it doesn't matter if bun has one ear, 3 legs or no tail.
the rabbits are judged on their health, presentation (clean bottoms, feet, eyes,noses,ears), and personality.
i used to show a rescue bun in the pet classes regularly and he did very well, not because of his breed, but because he was an adorable cheeky chappy who loved being out getting all the attention- and to think he had been a neglected pet shop bunny. :cry: ***

i believe two of the biggest problems that are contributing to the homeless bunny situation is;

1) pet shops selling rabbits
2) unscrupulous 'backyard' breeders.

i believe that the first often leads to the second.
i have had so many people come to me with their 'pet shop' buns that were supposed to be same sex, and were obviously not. so many people ending up with suprise litters. loads of people presenting me with pet shop buns that were sold as miniature and had clearly grown into large breeds. people asking me to help them because the pet shop said it was kinder to let them have a litter before getting the bun 'done' and the owners thought that by selling the kits they could raise funds for the ops.
buns in poor health being bought to me because either no or poor care advice was given from the petshop.
the list is endless.
pet shop staff so often know little or nothing about the animals that they are supposed to be caring for and selling. they are just instructed to do the basics and make a sale.
and sadley Joe public rarely does his homework as the baby buns are often bought on impulse.
a recipe for disaster!

if there was a ban on all animal sales from outlets such as pet stores and garden centres this would make such a difference.
public would be forced to go straight to rescues or breeders to get their pets. this way they would get the correct information on how to care for their new pet and have the opportunity to see its parents. see what size it is likely to grow to. and see the correct conditions that it should be kept in.
along with this, maybe some sort of annual check on breeders and rescue organisations from BRC/RWA to ensure that the back yard breeders do not continue to flood the public with unhealthy rabbits kept in poor conditions and that rescues are looking after animals best interests (*** i am not suggesting this of any rescues here****i know that the majority of rescues are brilliantly run, both funded and unfunded, but there have been reports of a few being run in appalling conditions).
i know i would be happy to pay a reasonable fee to be checked out and show that i was approved by these animal organiations.

as has been already said, we are never going to agree 100 % on what is right and what is wrong,
but i think we all agree that we need to do all we can between us to educate public on how to best care for their pet rabbits, and the pet buisnesses are not currently doing this.

off to bed now :wink:
michele x

[Tamsin]

Are, for example, the Netherlands rescues encountering the same as the ones that professional (BRC) breeders are producing?

Personally, I think the large majority of rabbits that end up in rescues come from petshops which in turn get their rabbits from mass/backyard breeders whose interest is in profit not the health of the animals they are producing.

BRC breeders breed in a different maner as they don't want animals with problems in their lines. They keep a careful track of parents (and their ancestors) as well as offspring. Doing this I think it is possible to produce healthy animals.


In the end whereever the animal was orginally born it seems to me the petshops are the real problem as animals are too easily aquired their without the proper information. If sales were reduced breeding would be reduced by default.

Tam

[Yvonne]

When breeding rabbits for show, you are selecting for certain genetic traits, for example you may use a buck with a fantastic body with a doe that has an excellent head in the hope that the resulting kits will carry both of these traits, obviously you will also get kits with neither and these are the ones that become much loved pets and the kits with both are retained for show and future breeding so the next generation will hopefully carry all the genetics to produce more show rabbits.

In the same way you can select to not breed from rabbits with genetic faults which affect the rabbits health, ie bad teeth. I think the reason rescues see so many rabbits with bad teeth is because they had been bred by people supplying the pet trade who don't know or care that animals with this problem should never be bred from. A show breeder would not use animals that have this trait or have produced it. Because of this in only takes a couple of generations to breed out this fault which is why you don't see it in a show breeders shed. As i said before i have only seen it once in my breeding, the affected kit was pts and its unaffected siblings and both parents went to non breeding pet homes and this problem has never reoccurred in my shed. If vets are seeing so many problems with the breed i'd like to suggest as part of there figures they also state where this rabbit came from, ie show breeder, pet trade breeder, pet shop, rescue etc.

As to what makes one animal mismarked and one perfect, that varies from breed to breed and person to person. I personally love the netherland dwarf and the mini lops, there is something about them that makes them special, they are perfect to me. Other people have there own favourites, some love particular breeds while others are happy with a cross breed, it is all down to personal preference.

When it comes to showing then the rabbit has to adher to the breed standard for that rabbit, in the case of patterned rabbits mismarked simply means the pattern doesn't follow the standard, the rabbit itself will still make a wonderful pet that will be loved, it just can't be shown.

Yvonne

[scotratrescue]

Im not disputing the care show buns pedigree buns get. The point im trying to get across in particular is the netherland dwarf rabbit. It has been bred (by good breeders and bad). The reason the dwarf has problems, is its size, this bun was never designed to be this size, yeah they are cute, but they are paying the price by the problems by the standard description. Their small round head is the problem, not the care.

The dimensions of the standard have caused the problems, not the care, you can care for a bun to live the life of riley, but its the shape and dimensions caused by breeders which have caused the amount of dwarves to suffer problems.

Not all of them will suffer it, but it is GENETIC, whether you see it or not, all rabbits have the same basic genetic code, crossbreeding etc, have introduced the dwarf rabbit. Crossbreeding is how the dwarf originated.

No matter whether you breed from good stock or not, the basic genetic code cannot be changed, and this means, a normal sized jawbone.

No matter what i write here, right or wrong, the information is freely on the net to support my views. so i guess there is nothing else to add.

Dxx

[luvabun]

I've followed this thread avidly and found it really interesting. However, I suggest it may be a good time to put it to bed. All parties have made their points clearly and with conviction and I think we should all admit that we will not agree on this one. Thanks for a brill thread.

[Yvonne]

Maloclussion isn't part of the genetic make up of a netherland dwarf, it is a genetic fault and can only be passed on if a rabbit carrying this fault is used for breeding. A good breeder would not use this rabbit, it is the indiscrimate pet breeders that wish to mass produce to make money that will allow this problem to continue, which is why its always best to go to a registered breeder that knows what they are doing, not someone who is trying to make money, as its impossible to make money from rabbits without keeping large numbers and cutting corners on the care and welfare of the rabbit.

Someone breeding for show is working to improve the rabbits in there care, to set in good points and breed out bad, it takes time and effort but the end result, healthy, friendly buns is worth the time and money it takes.

Yvonne

[Bunnyboarding]

[quote="Bunnyboarding

There is no way that an experienced & conscientious breeder would even contemplate messing about with any rabbit of this background! In fact the majority of sensible breeders make it their duty to ensure that any such rabbits are not sent back into the 'breeding chain'.

Likewise If a judge saw anything medically wrong with a rabbit he would disqualify or report the exhibitor.[/quote]


Exactly my point.

You'd never get anywhere trying to breed from rabbits with history of malocclusion & some tough lessons would be learnt by any breeder attempting to do so.

A pet trade breeder needs to produce the babies quickly & get them out fast whilst still small & 'cute'(which is why they are often underage), therefore does not actually have the youngsters in their posession long enough to encounter the inevitable problems. :evil:

A show breeder on the other hand would need to retain certain youngsters & keep them until such an age that they are old enough for showing or breeding!

As I say the nethies have been mass-produced by the unscrupulous for commercial gain so these are the majority people unfortunately see. :oops:

Sure you get the idiots in the hobby as you do pet owners & commercial breeders, but one cannot be held reponsible for the actions of others that are less considerate.

[Bertie]

No matter whether you breed from good stock or not, the basic genetic code cannot be changed, and this means, a normal sized jawbone.

I don't think you understand genetics. The whole basis of evolution is that the genetic code can and does change. In the wild there is natural selection for advantageous mutations, and this is mirrored by the artificial selection that breeders impose.

By selecting smaller bunnies to breed you end up with progressively smaller bunnies. By ensuring that the bunnies you breed from suffer no dental problem, you will end up with smaller bunnies with no dental problems. In an environment with no selection pressure a bunny with poor dental health will be able to breed easily and pass on this problem to its offspring. This is the situation that exists in mass breeding for the pet shop market.

[Adele]

No matter whether you breed from good stock or not, the basic genetic code cannot be changed, and this means, a normal sized jawbone.

I don't think you understand genetics. The whole basis of evolution is that the genetic code can and does change. In the wild there is natural selection for advantageous mutations, and this is mirrored by the artificial selection that breeders impose.

.

Bertie this is what I was starting to say earlier, and you have very nicely expanded the perspective into a wider evolutionary angle :D
Good breeders are mimicking the natural selection of fit bunnies in the wild, so they are supporting a natural process to this extent :wink: :D
It is the rabbits that are breed without due care and understanding of this process that have the problems, and sadly these are the breeds you often find in pet shops, garden centres etc :? .

[scotratrescue]

This will be my last post, as I feel this site should be renamed to ~Breeders United rather than rabbits.

Having rescued for years and see the problems, I can no longer defend myself against regarding the topic regarding breeders, "bad" breeders, good breeders, as far as the netherland are concerned there is no good breeder, the faults cannot be bred out. any breeder saying they can are trying to justify themselves. Posted below is an email i sent to my group on vet net. A group of proffessionals who get together to discuss various cases.

The reply I recieved cut and pasted in its entirety. anyone can make up their own mind, where the problems surrounding these breeds who they wish to believe, a committee of veterinary proffesionals,who specialise in various areas, including rabbits, and a "good" breeder trying to push the blame onto the "bad " breeder. It is a genetic fault again, which cannot be outbred, no matter how hard they try. Not all rabbits suffer from it granted, but they do carry the coding for this problem.but it is the sheer
size of the dwarfs that cause the problems, not good or bad breeding.

one breeder admits to culling the ones with the problem, that in itself to me is uncalled for, why breed the problem in the first place. I am not getting at any particular breeder, but breeders as a whole.

the post is copied and pasted below.

Message: 12
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 21:54:35 -0500
From: petlabrabbits@webtv.net
Subject: Re: netherland dwarfs

Hi Donna,

Unfortunately dental problems and abscesses are now prevalent in
netherlands and other breeds that have, "cute round faces". Some bunny
vets have begun to note that they aren't seeing "normal" dwarfs anymore,
all have one type of dental problem or another.

Basically, the problem stems from breeders looking for *the* winning
look. When the kits are young, breeders separate them as "show"
(keepers) vs. "not". The nots are sold to pet stores, others to
slaughter. The tooth misalignment, molar spurs, and other problems do
not crop up until adulthood -- when these "culls" are adopted pets.
People can & do spend thousands on life- long dental care for one bunny.

The "good" breeders cannot outbreed the bad genes because the "bad
genes" are now the prevalent genes. If certain traits such as short,
round faces are what wins ribbons, then that's what breeders will strive
for. The breeder you argued with is defending herself, she's trying to
say she isn't part of the problem. But what she claims, it's like
breeding 2 albinos and expecting someday, to get a brown furred
offspring.

A breeder cannot outbreed evolution. Unless they can breed a dwarf
bunny with a smaller number of teeth in that too- small jaw, eradication
would be difficult if not impossible. Many problems are caused by
misalignment in which molars do not line up properly, the tongue or
cheek is lacerated and infection sets in.

Another genetic syndrome that has become a problem is megacolon in
English Spots. http://www.neuro.wustl.edu/neuromuscular/autonomic.html
JCEM -- Sweeney et al. 85 (11): 3968
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/11/3968
Albino rabbits can suffer from megacolon- syndrome when they are
homozygous for the "English Spot" gene (EnEn). Wieberneit D., Wegner W.,
Vol. 3(1), 19-26
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8822192&dopt=Abstract

Marcy
http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~jwmoore/bicillin/bicillin.htm

-----------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 11:03:49 -0000
From: "Donna" <scotratrescue@ntlworld.com>
...In our practice we see them all the time due to problems associated
with their teeth. i.e. they have been bred so small, the jawbone last to
develop evolutionary wise, still remains a normal size whereas the head
is tiny.
I recently had an rather heated debate with a breeder of those
buns, adn she discards the breed of these buns as problems from a bad
breeder.Due to them breeding from buns with this genetic fault and the
good breeders have managed to outbreed this.
My question if anyone knows, is if this is a problem associated
with small breeds like the dwarf, how can a breeder manage to eradicate
it, by outbreeding, if the fault is already there, albeit they carry the
genes to make the jawbone, not every bun will have a problem, but surely
they still carry the genetic code for the small head and larger jawbone.
Why if a problem exists do they feel they can outbreed it?
Very confused.
Donna


With web links to support these claims

i wish you all the best with your site, but its hardly in the best interests of rabbits to be bred with even the best intentions.

So you can delete me from the database, I shall find a group, that is more in with my way of thinking. than to sit and debate rights and wrongs of breeders


thank you for your time in reading the above posts

[Lynn]

I tend to avoid posts like this as I see myself much more as a 'bunny owner' member of this forum, and I leave the more debated topics to those more informed :wink: .

However, I wanted to add that in defence of this site, it has opened up the lines of communication between breeders, rescuers and pet owners. We all have our own opinions on topics such as breeding, neutering, feeding etc, but we also have to accept that by joining a forum, we are going to read opinions that differ from our own.

I have learnt a lot from this site. I also think that two of the most fundamentally important issues with regards to improving the future for our furry friends is education and communication. I think this site strives towards achieving both of these. :) . I like it's name just the way it is. :wink:

[Andi, Boy of Destiny!]

This will be my last post, as I feel this site should be renamed to ~Breeders United rather than rabbits.

Then you're not very observant; breeders are in a minority here. Though, as far as I'm concerned, they're as welcome as anyone else.

as far as the netherland are concerned there is no good breeder, the faults cannot be bred out. any breeder saying they can are trying to justify themselves.

Again, you clearly don't have much of an understanding of genetics. Perhaps you should do a spot of reading before mouthing off about such a complex subject. :)

The "good" breeders cannot outbreed the bad genes because the "bad genes" are now the prevalent genes.

As long as there are rabbits with the "good" genes, the bad ones can be outbred. This is patently obvious after a moment's thought.

i wish you all the best with your site, but its hardly in the best interests of rabbits to be bred with even the best intentions.

So you'd rather see the entire species die out? How is that possibly in the best intrests of rabbits? :roll:

So you can delete me from the database, I shall find a group, that is more in with my way of thinking. than to sit and debate rights and wrongs of breeders

And here we have it. An incredibly telling paragraph; essentially you're saying "I will never change my mind; it is completely closed. Therefore I will seek out other people who will reinforce my already-set opinions rather than listen to anyone else, no matter how much more they know about the subject than me".

Don't let the door hit you on the bum on the way out. :)

[Bunnyboarding]

I'm open-minded enough to want to learn about the welfare of animals.

Sure the human race has created pedigrees such as pugs, sharpei's persian cats, etc etc. Yes there are breed traits that go with any breed, but one can, as a consciencous breeder, only work with animals with less extreme modifications (if you know what i mean) to create healthier specimens.

But how can one take the opinion of one vet (did they know it was going to put on the internet BTW) & use that to represent the whole picture??

[Bertie]

if the fault is already there, albeit they carry the
genes to make the jawbone, not every bun will have a problem, but surely
they still carry the genetic code for the small head and larger jawbone.
Why if a problem exists do they feel they can outbreed it?


Again, you're misunderstanding genetics. I'm not a breeder. However, I am a biochemist. As has been said, as long as there are 'good' genes available within the gene pool, negative traits can be bred out.

There is no single gene that codes for a jawbone. There is certainly no single gene for a 'larger jawbone'. Biology is not so black and white as that. Over the course of human evolution we have grown larger in size. Just visit the Tower of London and have a look at the tiny suits of armour they used to wear. Now, by your reasoning, there's no way we could be taller now than we were then as everyone already had the short gene. That's simply not how it works.

I'm not saying there aren't a lot of bunnies out there with jaw and dental problems. There are. But it's not nearly as black and white as you'd like to believe.

[bunnytales]

Donna - I, like Lynn, have been following this thread during the past few days and taking on board all the areas discussed. I can understand your frustration and your obvious passion for bunnies - this is something I think we all share on this forum and the frustration of the bunnies plight can be attributed to many different areas - but what we are doing is trying to work together to make improvements by education and communication to mere bunny owners like me, rescues, breeders - what ever shape you are - the good folks on this forum will listen and help.

You like so many of the Rescues on here have my deepest admiration as your at the sharpe end and how you manage to deal emotionally with the many sad cases you come accross and stay sane I'll never know.

But from a mere completely besotted bunny owner - I'd like to say the following:-

Pet Shops - Yep - I think we all agree there is much improvement to be made but I bought my first bunny from a Pet Store and if that hadn't have happened I wouldn't have become so head over heals about bunnies and met all the great folks and friends I have.

Breeders - Yep - there are good and bad (as in ever sphere of things) but I have been encouraged by the Good Ones that I have got to know on this Forum and I now know of Breeders that only produce kits to waiting lists and will not let their bunnies go to just any old home and have them back if any problems occur.

Resues/Spay/Vacination Policy - I can only speak from a personal point of view but I do feel that if the bunny population continues to spiral out of control that eventually there will be no alternative but to insist that all bunnies rehomed are Spayed and Vaccinated and feel long term this would be better for bunnies in the longer term.

Genetic Probs - I'm really not qualified to comment on this area.

I don't think for a minute that any one here would feel happy with the "Breeders United" title that is just not working within the Rabbits United Charter.

I'm sorry that you feel this way about Rabbits United but you still have my admiration for the work you do.

[Yvonne]

I have over 30 Netherland Dwarfs and not 1 has a teeth problem. Genetic teeth problems become obvious at a very young age to someone who knows what to look for as i do, as a rabbits teeth grow so quickly a kit born with maloclussion will be obvious to anyone by 12wks old.

Teeth problems that develop later in life are not genetic, but due to bad diet and housing, some rabbits will pull on the bars of there hutch which can pull teeth out of alignment, lack of hay to wear the teeth down causes teeth to overgrow, alot of pet owners do not do there research before getting a rabbit and only provide cheap pet shop mixes as food, so over time the teeth are affected. I have never had a rabbit develop teeth problems in later life as all mine recieve a proper diet.

This forum is a mix of rabbit lovers from all areas, pet owners, rescues and breeders where people can voice there opinions and if necessary agree to disagree. Because of this we all get alot from this forum and the rabbits in our care benefit as a result.

Yvonne

[haffyj]

I tend to avoid posts like this as I see myself much more as a 'bunny owner' member of this forum, and I leave the more debated topics to those more informed :wink: .

However, I wanted to add that in defence of this site, it has opened up the lines of communication between breeders, rescuers and pet owners. We all have our own opinions on topics such as breeding, neutering, feeding etc, but we also have to accept that by joining a forum, we are going to read opinions that differ from our own.

I have learnt a lot from this site. I also think that two of the most fundamentally important issues with regards to improving the future for our furry friends is education and communication. I think this site strives towards achieving both of these. :) . I like it's name just the way it is. :wink:

I agree. And its not always things like this people agree on, You may not find anybody that has the same views as you on alot of things, I love the forum i have found and made many friends, but i bet we all dont have the same views on some things, and i wouldn't change a thing

[Caz]

I read around a lot of forums before deciding to try and join one.

This one hasn't been running as long as some of the others but from the usual style of postings and debates that I have read I would say overall this is the most open forum I have found to anyone’s thoughts and feelings on any bunny related topic.

I found one American site that won't even accept people's posts requesting help with litters even if they were accidental. That sort of attitude does no-one any good, as it is not in the best interest of the rabbits if they die because someone wasn't allowed to ask how to look after them properly.

There are many forums that do not allow breeders to join and I feel that often they lack a balanced view on a topic and subsequently many topics are very one sided almost monologues because everyone is just saying the same thing and agreeing with everyone else. I would probably be slated if I joined because I brought one of my buns from a breeder.

I like it here and as Andi has pointed out breeders do happen to be in the minority here but their views are still welcome especially when someone posts about an accidental litter - I for one wouldn't have a clue how to help and always breath a sigh of relief when a breeder pops up out of nowhere to the rescue!

As for the genetics I am a biologist (:) Bertie) and believe that you can breed out traits that are undesirable just as many traits were bred in to certain species in the first place. The difficulty comes when traits clash with required breed standards. Now I don't know if Nethie has its face measured or judged on "cuteness" at a show but I am sure there is a way of breeding with those that have the traits for smaller teeth to fit in their smaller jaw or breeding them with a slightly larger jaw allowing them to have normal lives but without affecting those particular traits that make them a show-winning Nethie.

Certain dog species are known to have hip problems, the kennel club developed a hip-score system and now only dogs with low hip-scores are bred otherwise they can't be KC registered ensuring that fewer are born each year with this genetic disease.

It is possible to breed out bad traits but it does require that all breeders are working together towards a common goal and sadly must admit that there are many who won't care but very few of these will be BRC registered.

Quite frankly if there were no variety life would be boring!

Caz

[Bunnyboarding]

Hi Caz,

They definately don't measure nethies faces at shows or anywhere i know of :wink: :lol: hehe! but you'd think so wouldn't you after all the bad press! :D

Seriously though, I've only ever heard of english lops ears being measured.

I too know of the forums that do not allow breeder input & have to say that i have read the posts from afar & been totally gobsmacked that so little is actually known. There have even been requests for help that i had clear answers for when no-one else knew what to say, but the answer remained unknown!

Not blowing any trumpets here, but the more discriminate of forums just do not generate the the correct & balanced information that people really need. Sadly ignorance breeds ignorance.

I think it is up to the individual to make their own informed decisions providing they have all the valid information to begin with.

[Bertie]

I think it works in the other direction too. If you refuse to talk to breeders about bunnies, then how can they be made aware of the issues facing rescues and pet owners? Certain people might not like breeders, but the solution is not to just pretend they don't exist.

[Rexy bexy]

from god knows who many nethies iv seen only one that has had teeth probs but this one had to be 10 yrs old and would say it has a poor diet.
yes i know its nothing like what we r dicusing but i got a black otter with some white hairs in and proving the choose the right rabbit to breed her with i can be breed white hairs out of her.
i know this bit may sound a bit harsh but people breeding there pets should be fined, but i only think this to cut bk numbers of unwanted rabbits and will encorage people to neuter them.
i would just like to say since joing the BRC and breedng iv become a better owner of rabbits as the advice given and things iv learnt is unbelivible and thinking bk to when i had pet rabbits and seeing how little i knew about them, but the BRC has done me the world of good and its surprising how quick u pick up things and learn about them without even realising. And i hope iv been able to help out others.
becky

[bunnyhuggger]

Becky, I think you're just the business! Because you are young and willing to learn all the right things and take them on board. The information you give others is excellent. I hope all young breeders follow your example in imparting correct information and giving advice, and even admitting when you are unsure about anything. Hopefully, your generation of breeders will all be like you, a shining example! :wink:

[Rexy bexy]

Becky, I think you're just the business! Because you are young and willing to learn all the right things and take them on board. The information you give others is excellent. I hope all young breeders follow your example in imparting correct information and giving advice, and even admitting when you are unsure about anything. Hopefully, your generation of breeders will all be like you, a shining example! :wink:

thank you so much :D :D , i love helping people out cause i feel i have achived something good and i do get ramdon people emailing me for advice but i dont know ill ask someone who might. i like it when the school my mom workes at ask me to take the rabbits in so they can do some work on them as the expessions on the faces are wonderfull as some dont get this experience and is good to see one that runs and hides from one them and by the end is wanting to learn and interact with the rabbit, but cant teach them that much as they r only about 6 yrs old and can tech the basics like features of a rabbit what they eat, where they live, differences between breeds.
any way changing subject people can say that breeders arnt aware of the neglect and abandoned rabbits about because i know loads of breedes that have found dumped boxes with rabbits in found out side there house
becky

[onyx_stud]

Donna,
i know that you have requested deletion from this board, but i am going to post this on the offchance that you will still read the posts-even if you choose not to reply...

People that choose to rescue, like yourself, are very generous, selfless, special people. Without caring people like you many hundreds of small furries would be either pts or worse, left to suffer at the mercy of ignorant owners who cannot be bothered to take proper care of their animals.
Your endless time and commitment put into rescuing is proof of your passion for the poor innocents of the animal world.
For all of this i commend you!

Sadly though, i feel that because of all the cruelty and evil that you have seen animals suffer at the hands of these ignorant people, you need to find someone to be angry with and to take the blame.
This is perfectly understandable.
It is a natural response.

When we are subjected to the evils of life we need- we have to find somewhere to lay the blame in order to find a way of coping. (i speak from very recent first hand experience)
Unfortunetly the chances of actually seeing people punished for there cruelty/neglect is a very rare thing.
Pet stores and backyard breeders are never going to stand up and say that
'yes, we could be part of the problem, what can we do to prevent this happening in the future?'
so the blame often gets placed at the next port of call who you believe is at the start of this sad chain of events. Exhibition rabbit breeders!

-After all ' all rabbit breeder's are the same aren't they!'
No! We most definitley not the same!

As some of us have already mentioned, we breed very selectivly. We do not breed from rabbits with poor genetic traits.
Which brings me to the subject of netherland dwarfs and the reports on teeth problems.

I am in no doubt that the most common rabbit problem seen in veterinary surgeries is likely to be connected to teeth.
And the most popular pet rabbits are indeed 'those cute little ones that have adorable round baby faces'.

See the connection? miniature rabbits = malformed teeth....? Wrong!!

See the connection- Most likely pet bought on a whim = A rabbit.
Favourite breed of bun for a pet= minature.
Most likely place to purchase= Pet store.
Amount of care & feed advice given= None.

Add that to the fact that veterinary surgeries are most likely to see buns that are ill, or experiencing problems - often caused by
1) poor research and husbandry (backyard breeders making a fast buck)
2) inadequate knowledge on how to best feed and care for their pet.

By their very nature, vets are not likely to see huge amounts of healthy rabbits because healthy rabbits do not need to see them.
Therefore they can only document on what they see.

If veterinary surgeries were to add to the records where the patient was aquired from we would get a much clearer picture.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thank you for taking the time to read my post.
I do apologise for the length of it- maybe if i posted more often they would be shorter and not so much of a chore to read :wink:

Goodnight all :rabbit2:

[Rexy bexy]

hi michele,
i can agree with every thing u have said :D
becky

[cashmincal]

Good post Michelle!

Clare

[taylor v 109]

Well said michele, well put, cax liked your post love your rabbits. val

[taylor v 109]

Well said michele, well put, caz liked your post love your rabbits. val

[taylor v 109]

Well said michele, well put, caz liked your post love your rabbits. val

[taylor v 109]

Well said michele, well put, caz liked your post love your rabbits. val

[onyx_stud]

:oops: thanks guys :oops: :D

[Toby]

I don’t know if I have fully understood this post, as I haven’t read “all” of it, as there is so much. However I felt I had to say something.

Talking from my own opinion about myself I don’t know if I agree with this “backyard breeders” thing, as this might be what I was classed as. When I bred rabbits it wasn’t an accident I know what I was doing but I also wasn’t an official breeder. I was a girl in Grimsby with a love for rabbits breeding them. None of my rabbits (or offspring had any illness). I understand where you are coming from that mating stock with an illness can/will pass it on – but then “any” rabbit at any age can become ill. I wouldn’t say I did it for money either; again I did it because I loved doing it. I don’t think that in a better world only breeders with pure breeds should breed as this would make a lower count of crossbreeds, and to be honest imo they are the best breeds. I only ever bred crossbreed with long lifespans. I know some people that had our offspring rabbits just over 10 years ago now, and they are still going strong like Toby.

Gosh this sounds like I am having a right dig lol – but I am not. I am just explaining things from my point of view. I do agree that there should be less people going “Oops I think my rabbit is pregnant” that has always annoyed me. I think that if you do not wish to breed then your rabbit’s need to be “done” and then the doe won’t get pregnant. Two rabbits “Un-Done” should not be together in the first place.

Just thought Id have my say :):):):)