Always Worried About Plumpkin - Update

Hi everyone :wave:

I'm worried about Plumpkin 24/7. I am naturally a big worrier, so perhaps I'm taking a lot of what I'm observing far too seriously. I'd like to share my daily observations on here to hopefully gain some perspective!

As you probably all know, I have struggled to put weight on Plumpkin for many months. My daily routine now is to let all three bunnies out of the greenhouse run first thing in the morning - they all run outside and Ham & Bea quickly come back in for their bowl of greens. Plumpkin has learnt now that if she waits under the run shelter I set up for her especially, she'll get her own tailor made bowl of breakfast.

So at this point I shut Beatrice and Hamilton in the greenhouse. They eat their breakfast in 5 minutes - Plumpkin takes at least an hour, and usually only eats half of what I give her, so I have to try separating her at a later point in the day to give her the rest. I give her a bowl of shredded mixed greens, topped with 8 broken up fibre first sticks, softened with boiling water to encourage her to eat them all as she finds hard foods difficult to eat. I mix in a little mashed banana (she is mad for it) and sprinkle some oats on the top.

When she has finally left her bowl alone to say she's done (around an hour after I have given it to her) I let the other two out to join her and remove the bowl. What I have noticed, which worries me, is Plumpkin is deliberately distances herself from the other two. There is no hostility, but since I have started feeding her on her own she keeps to herself. E.g, they all used to snuggle in the hutch together to sleep during the day, but as I am typing now, Ham & Bea are upstairs asleep together and Plumpkin is in the greenhouse asleep by the hay feeder.

There was always a part of her that was 'in her own world', but giving her breakfast alone has amplified this. Her behaviour is very reserved and shut off, unless I come outside to see her; she will always run over to me and want her head rubbed. Part of the problem is because she can't forage like the other two, who are constantly nibbling on the grass, it's like she's left out and can't 'join in'.

I'm trying to think of how I can improve life for her and make her happier, but I'm out of ideas. Does she need her own companion, or will it be a similar problem because rabbit 4 would also be healthy and normal? I sometimes wonder if she would be happier inside as a house rabbit, but I think the rabbits do still all love each other and they would miss her.

Any advice or suggestions are always appreciated, thank you everyone!

Awww Plumpkin

I don't think you have any choice but to continue with her seperate feasts if she is to remain part of a trio. Her dinners sound good (for her). I remember FHB saying for bunnies with end stage dental disease (end stage referring to teeth & not bunnys life) we sometimes have to feed them all the stuff at the top of the recommended food triangle.

I get your worries about her isolation - especially as winters on its way & you're concerned about her weight. There do seem alot of advantages to bringing her in: She could have permanent access to feasts, you could assess her condition & mood even more closely, she is bonded with you & you work from home if I remember correctly? So she;d have lots of attention. Its going to be a very cold winter by all accounts

In an ideal world bunnies live with other bunnies eating that lovely hay & forage based diet but for we have to assess each rabbits needs individually. If it were me I'd bring Plumpkin in as a lone house bunny, give her loads of love & see how it goes.

She's one of my firm favourites xx

joey&boo said:

Awww Plumpkin

I don't think you have any choice but to continue with her seperate feasts if she is to remain part of a trio. Her dinners sound good (for her). I remember FHB saying for bunnies with end stage dental disease (end stage referring to teeth & not bunnys life) we sometimes have to feed them all the stuff at the top of the recommended food triangle.

I get your worries about her isolation - especially as winters on its way & you're concerned about her weight. There do seem alot of advantages to bringing her in: She could have permanent access to feasts, you could assess her condition & mood even more closely, she is bonded with you & you work from home if I remember correctly? So she;d have lots of attention. Its going to be a very cold winter by all accounts

In an ideal world bunnies live with other bunnies eating that lovely hay & forage based diet but for we have to assess each rabbits needs individually. If it were me I'd bring Plumpkin in as a lone house bunny, give her loads of love & see how it goes.

She's one of my firm favourites xx

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Ditto xx

I agree, I’d have her as a single house bunny too :thumb:

Beapig said:

Hi everyone :wave:

I'm worried about Plumpkin 24/7. I am naturally a big worrier, so perhaps I'm taking a lot of what I'm observing far too seriously. I'd like to share my daily observations on here to hopefully gain some perspective!

As you probably all know, I have struggled to put weight on Plumpkin for many months. My daily routine now is to let all three bunnies out of the greenhouse run first thing in the morning - they all run outside and Ham & Bea quickly come back in for their bowl of greens. Plumpkin has learnt now that if she waits under the run shelter I set up for her especially, she'll get her own tailor made bowl of breakfast.

So at this point I shut Beatrice and Hamilton in the greenhouse. They eat their breakfast in 5 minutes - Plumpkin takes at least an hour, and usually only eats half of what I give her, so I have to try separating her at a later point in the day to give her the rest. I give her a bowl of shredded mixed greens, topped with 8 broken up fibre first sticks, softened with boiling water to encourage her to eat them all as she finds hard foods difficult to eat. I mix in a little mashed banana (she is mad for it) and sprinkle some oats on the top.

When she has finally left her bowl alone to say she's done (around an hour after I have given it to her) I let the other two out to join her and remove the bowl. What I have noticed, which worries me, is Plumpkin is deliberately distances herself from the other two. There is no hostility, but since I have started feeding her on her own she keeps to herself. E.g, they all used to snuggle in the hutch together to sleep during the day, but as I am typing now, Ham & Bea are upstairs asleep together and Plumpkin is in the greenhouse asleep by the hay feeder.

There was always a part of her that was 'in her own world', but giving her breakfast alone has amplified this. Her behaviour is very reserved and shut off, unless I come outside to see her; she will always run over to me and want her head rubbed. Part of the problem is because she can't forage like the other two, who are constantly nibbling on the grass, it's like she's left out and can't 'join in'.

I'm trying to think of how I can improve life for her and make her happier, but I'm out of ideas. Does she need her own companion, or will it be a similar problem because rabbit 4 would also be healthy and normal? I sometimes wonder if she would be happier inside as a house rabbit, but I think the rabbits do still all love each other and they would miss her.

Any advice or suggestions are always appreciated, thank you everyone!

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I'm torn over this one!

I have a group of four rabbits where one has a 'feast' around 4/5 times a day separate to the others. I know Parsnipbun also has rabbits that she feeds 'extra helpings' during the day but they still live with other bunnies.

How long has the separate feeding been going on?

I prefer to keep buns with other buns, but if you feel it's the best option for her to be split from the others and live indoors I can totally see why you would do it

I have no advice to give but I love her name

This is a difficult one to decide on and tbh I don't know what I would do. I don't think her having her own partner would help very much, if at all, because you would still need to feed separately.

I would not assume that because all three rabbits don't spend most of their time as a loved-up threesome, that each one is not obtaining benefit by the relationship. There seems to be various degrees of closeness within rabbit bonds and those bonds can also evolve over time so that the dynamics can change within the group.

I suppose the only way would be to try to compare the benefit of outside with Ham and Beatrice to inside as a single rabbit, but that to me seems almost impossible.

Thank you everyone for your suggestions!

Like MM and Omi, I am torn really. Whilst Plumpkin is very reserved and in her own little world, living with other rabbits has definitely made her more outgoing than she used to be and more confident. When she had her last dental and was at the vet from 8.00am until 5.00pm when we picked her up, Hamilton and Beatrice were showing signs of anxiety and Beatrice particularly seemed to be looking for her. I'd be worried that the other two would miss her. But I am also worried that she's too thin for the cold that will be coming soon.

We have been working towards clearing ground behind the greenhouse run to build them an 8 x 6 shed in time for Winter to replace their htuch. We're hoping to have it all finished by the end of November. Maybe Plumpkin just sits there doing nothing because she can't display her natural behaviour of foraging in the way that the other two can?

I do work from home and my studio overlooks the garden. I don't mind having to go out every hour or so to keep giving her extra bits of food. It isn't ideal, but the main thing to me is that I keep her well fed in the environment that is best suited to her. Definitely a difficult one.

Beapig said:

Thank you everyone for your suggestions!

Like MM and Omi, I am torn really. Whilst Plumpkin is very reserved and in her own little world, living with other rabbits has definitely made her more outgoing than she used to be and more confident. When she had her last dental and was at the vet from 8.00am until 5.00pm when we picked her up, Hamilton and Beatrice were showing signs of anxiety and Beatrice particularly seemed to be looking for her. I'd be worried that the other two would miss her. But I am also worried that she's too thin for the cold that will be coming soon.

We have been working towards clearing ground behind the greenhouse run to build them an 8 x 6 shed in time for Winter to replace their htuch. We're hoping to have it all finished by the end of November. Maybe Plumpkin just sits there doing nothing because she can't display her natural behaviour of foraging in the way that the other two can?

I do work from home and my studio overlooks the garden. I don't mind having to go out every hour or so to keep giving her extra bits of food. It isn't ideal, but the main thing to me is that I keep her well fed in the environment that is best suited to her. Definitely a difficult one.

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Exactly

In every group of rabbits I have had a frail one that needed extra rations.
They have valued the company of the other rabbits, even though they can't eat the same food.

A difficult one, as you want her to be able to withstand the cold ...

I think it's a case of 6 of one and 1/2 dozen of the other. It would be easier on you if Plumpkin was indoors, you wouldn't worry as much about her and Ham and Bea have each other. How will you feed them if it's raining or snowy, will you still separate Plumpkin off? I am going to opt for indoors, there are pros and cons to each way you decide but given her special needs aand you are able to have her indoors, then yes, indoors.

It has indeed been a while since I have read any updates for Plumpkin - she is, I have to say, my absolute guilty pleasure on the forum. Her story, her rescue both intrigued me and deeply upset me to how she was tret and kept before you stepped in and changed her life - for the better. She is a gorgeous rabbit, who sadly is probably indefinately cursed with dental problems not from her making. This, ultimately is the catalyst of the problems. And this is not your fault and you have and continue to do everything and more to give PLumpkin a healthy stable happy safe comfortable life.
For what my input is worth, I also am torn and I'm with MM & Omi. My first thought is the obvious one - Plumpkins welfare is paramount. And your daily routine clearly makes her happy and cared for. In some ways, I think she shares some traits of Lillian in that deep in her mind, in places we cannot go, she is deeply traumatised and how to unlock that is also key to this. She has clearly learned to trust you and believe me, that is a wonderful thing to earn from Plumpkin. She feels safe and she knows she is safe with you. I'm not sure why she feels necessary to distance herself from the other 2 bunnies after breakfast. Perhaps this is something from her past - a dominance or subversive pattern. Maybe she feels lesser than the other bunnies and feels inferior to them. Human behaviour does indeed mirror this in some capacity especially those who have suffered in captivity. The fact she enjoyes being with Bea & Ham means she trusts them but the heirachy may be different within?
I too, believe that if you were able to, bringing her indoors during the cold months would probably benefit her. It is plausable that she may be prone to feeling the cold dur to her teeth issues and eating. Inside, in the warmth, she will have plenty of love and stimulation and access to her own food whenever. But it would also be helpful to make sure there is interaction with Bea & Ham to maintain the bond. Getting a soft toy might help with her indoors.
I'm not inclined to suggest introducing a 4th rabbit - there's no guarantee that bond will work. At the moment, Plumpkin is happy and safe with you and she clearly views you as the matriach in her world - which is why she feels so secure and comfortable round you.
Plumpkin probably takes longer to eat because she can't eat the same way as most rabbits do, so she has found her own way of eating in much the same way we humans would if we had dental problems. But she is eating and eating wonderful healthy nutritional food that is certainly maintaining her weight and wellbeing.
I wish I had better advice or answers for you. You are doing the most wonderful and rewarding job with Plumpkin and I hope others may have some solutions for you.
I am so pleased that she is continuing to thrive in your care and has the friendship with Bea and Ham.

Thank you Craig for your lovely words, you're too kind!

I've decided I'm going to keep Plumpkin with the other two for now - I feel that this is the best decision for her and for Ham & Bea also.

However, I'm still really worried about her general condition. She didn't want to eat anything this morning and she has been grinding her teeth on and off since coming back from her dental. It seems particularly bad today.

I need advice from more the more experienced rabbit carers on here. Should I find a specialist and drive her halfway across the country if necessary? I don't have a car but my parents are wonderful and I know they would do this for her if it was serious. I don't think that my vets are bad at all, but I'm not seeing improvements in her despite my best efforts.

If I may offload for a moment - I am finding looking after her very stressful. In the past four months I have gone from having clear skin to pretty bad acne for the first time since I was a teenager, because I'm so stressed. And this situation is really adding to my every day stress. I know that her teeth are beyond 'fixing', but I think she needs a more long term solution to a dental every 6 weeks (just trying not to cry at my computer right now)

Beapig said:

Thank you Craig for your lovely words, you're too kind!

I've decided I'm going to keep Plumpkin with the other two for now - I feel that this is the best decision for her and for Ham & Bea also.

However, I'm still really worried about her general condition. She didn't want to eat anything this morning and she has been grinding her teeth on and off since coming back from her dental. It seems particularly bad today.

I need advice from more the more experienced rabbit carers on here. Should I find a specialist and drive her halfway across the country if necessary? I don't have a car but my parents are wonderful and I know they would do this for her if it was serious. I don't think that my vets are bad at all, but I'm not seeing improvements in her despite my best efforts.

If I may offload for a moment - I am finding looking after her very stressful. In the past four months I have gone from having clear skin to pretty bad acne for the first time since I was a teenager, because I'm so stressed. And this situation is really adding to my every day stress. I know that her teeth are beyond 'fixing', but I think she needs a more long term solution to a dental every 6 weeks (just trying not to cry at my computer right now)

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Can you remind me what diagnostics your current Vet has done so far. Xrays ? If so exactly what did these reveal ?
Please can you also remind me of the exact stage of her Dental disease ?

https://www.harcourt-brown.co.uk/me...urse/3-complications-of-dental-procedures.pdf

Jack's-Jane said:

Can you remind me what diagnostics your current Vet has done so far. Xrays ? If so exactly what did these reveal ?
Please can you also remind me of the exact stage of her Dental disease ?

https://www.harcourt-brown.co.uk/me...urse/3-complications-of-dental-procedures.pdf

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She has never had any x-rays. I brought it up after the first dental and the vet told me it was pointless because he could see everything in her mouth in real life and getting x-rays would not reveal anything else (although I can imagine this is not true?)

In terms of how bad her dental problems are, what my vet told me is that a calcium deficiency has caused her jaw to warp and make her teeth grow on the wrong angle (inwards?). So her upper and lower teeth never make contact, which means they can never grind down naturally. She had two molars removed during her first dental, which were already loose and rotten. I saw them in a test tube and they were brown and disgusting looking.

Sorry that this answer is so un-scientific Jane - I feel like I don't understand a lot of this and am just relaying everything the vet has told me.

Beapig said:

She has never had any x-rays. I brought it up after the first dental and the vet told me it was pointless because he could see everything in her mouth in real life and getting x-rays would not reveal anything else (although I can imagine this is not true?)

In terms of how bad her dental problems are, what my vet told me is that a calcium deficiency has caused her jaw to warp and make her teeth grow on the wrong angle (inwards?). So her upper and lower teeth never make contact, which means they can never grind down naturally. She had two molars removed during her first dental, which were already loose and rotten. I saw them in a test tube and they were brown and disgusting looking.

Sorry that this answer is so un-scientific Jane - I feel like I don't understand a lot of this and am just relaying everything the vet has told me.

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Xrays would actually be really useful in assessing what is going on 'under the surface'. I dont know if you have read this link which details what a full Dental work up should consist of :

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Dental_diseases/Differential/Rabbit_dentistry.pdf

I obviously cannot tell you what to do with regards to consulting a Specialist, but for me I would want to do so if at all possible. Of course I realise that there may be numerous reasons why this may not be possible/appropriate.

Jack's-Jane said:

Xrays would actually be really useful in assessing what is going on 'under the surface'. I dont know if you have read this link which details what a full Dental work up should consist of :

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Dental_diseases/Differential/Rabbit_dentistry.pdf

I obviously cannot tell you what to do with regards to consulting a Specialist, but for me I would want to do so if at all possible. Of course I realise that there may be numerous reasons why this may not be possible/appropriate.

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I will do anything it takes to try and improve her condition, so I'm looking into specialists. I live in South Wales - if anyone on here reading this knows of a specialist near to me then please let me know. Looking at the moment, I think I would have to drive for at least an hour to get to a specialist.

Beapig said:

I will do anything it takes to try and improve her condition, so I'm looking into specialists. I live in South Wales - if anyone on here reading this knows of a specialist near to me then please let me know. Looking at the moment, I think I would have to drive for at least an hour to get to a specialist.

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No personal experience of any of these, but you may want to start making a few enquiries

https://www.valleyvets.net/what-we-do/rabbits

https://www.harcourt-brown.co.uk/ve...by-rabbit-owners/copy_of_county-or-city/wales

https://rabbitwelfare.co.uk/rabbit-care-advice/rabbit-friendly-vets/rabbit-friendly-vet-list/


Also, you may want to have a read of this article : ( the page takes a bit of time to load as it's a big file)

https://www.harcourt-brown.co.uk/media/documents/Thesis

Beapig said:

Thank you Craig for your lovely words, you're too kind!

I've decided I'm going to keep Plumpkin with the other two for now - I feel that this is the best decision for her and for Ham & Bea also.

However, I'm still really worried about her general condition. She didn't want to eat anything this morning and she has been grinding her teeth on and off since coming back from her dental. It seems particularly bad today.

I need advice from more the more experienced rabbit carers on here. Should I find a specialist and drive her halfway across the country if necessary? I don't have a car but my parents are wonderful and I know they would do this for her if it was serious. I don't think that my vets are bad at all, but I'm not seeing improvements in her despite my best efforts.

If I may offload for a moment - I am finding looking after her very stressful. In the past four months I have gone from having clear skin to pretty bad acne for the first time since I was a teenager, because I'm so stressed. And this situation is really adding to my every day stress. I know that her teeth are beyond 'fixing', but I think she needs a more long term solution to a dental every 6 weeks (just trying not to cry at my computer right now)

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I am so sorry this has brought you so low

You're working so hard, and I can really feel the effort you're putting in and not getting her as better as you would like her to be.

Regards X-Rays, I have to say that my (savvy) vet doesn't do them either! She regards them as not really necessary for the most part, though my recommendation would be to have a one off appointment with a really savvy specialist and see what their advice is.

Yes I would (and have) driven hundreds of miles to see a rabbit specialist who can give advice - get a very early morning appointment and then if there are any diagnostics to be done, they can be done during the day and you can all come home in the evening without leaving her at the vet.

Good luck xx

I agree a specialist would be valuable (& I've always found treatment cheaper in the long run as they get to the bottom of the issue faster & are aware / capable of a wider array of medical interventions). Like you I don't drive & it a hassle to get to a decent vet but its worth it (its 90 mins to the one I use by car but most of a day by public transport).

Many a savvy vet will work in more of a consultancy way with specialists & share info, get advice. Either way I think xrays would be necessary. Should Plumpkin have her next GA before she were seen by a specialist I would ask your vet to take xrays

Thinking of you - I've been in similar situations with a few buns & it is super stressful

Thank you everyone for your support. It has been a really hard time but I hope by taking this step I can get some answers. I have been looking on the RWAF website, and there is a vet called Sonya Miles in Bristol at 'Highcroft Vet Group' who has been given a gold bunny rating by the RWAF. It takes 40 minutes for me to get to Bristol on the train so I could potentially call them up and have a chat.

When arranging to meet a specialist or set up something with a different practice like this, how do I go about it? To be candid, Plumpkin has cost us almost £1000 since March, so I don't want to drag her to another city only to find that it was a waste of stressing her out and a waste of money. If I go out of my way to take her to someone new, I want to make sure they know what they're doing with rabbits. I assume the RWAF is very reliable with their recommendations?

Her next GA is booked in for mid November and I would like her to see a specialist before then.