• Forum/Server Upgrade If you are reading this you have made it to the upgraded forum. Posts made on the old forum after 26th October 2023 have not been transfered. Everything else should be here. If you find any issues please let us know.

Forum members, please read this and help a "higher caus

Hi guys,
I hope you dont mind me posting this on the "welfare issues" but I really feel this is one. Surely to raise welfare for all rabbits we have to get good quality information out into the public domain from trusted sources. A trusted source ought really to be an organisation like "vetark" the producers of probiotics and supplements like avipro for small animals. I have looked at the "rabbit care" information on their website and I am so deeply shocked and concerned by what they are advocating that I have written a "strongly worded letter" to them requesting they alter the information immediately but what I really need is for lots of people with "clout" in animal welfare, be that rescuers, vets, and pet owners to get behind what I have said and back me up if you feel able to in the form of e-mails, product boycott and complaints. Please pass this on to as many people as possible. Together, we CAN change things for rabbits by eliminating the information which ignorant people take as gospel.

Please read this part of their website:
http://www.vetark.co.uk/rabbitcare.html

These are MY comments to them:

Dear Sir/Madam,


Regarding this area of your website:
http://www.vetark.co.uk/rabbitcare.html

I run a rescue centre for rabbits and guinea pigs have years and years of experience with keeping them. I am trained in animal communication/behaviour and have read extensively on the subject of both wild and domestic rabbits. I am a member of the Rabbit Welfare Association (RWA) and work closely with other rabbit rescues and welfare organisations. I would not say I am the worlds best authority on rabbit welfare but to say that I know enough to be horrified and dismayed with the information on rabbit care given on your website would be to understate it greatly. I wish to take umbridge with several points which I will address individually quoting your website in colour:

They live, on average, four to ten years and are very easy to keep in a healthy state.

Rabbits are NOT "very easy to keep". This is a completely subjective statement and companies such as yourselves have a responsibility to ensure that you acurately represent their true needs. Rabbits are complex to keep, a huge commitment of time and money, and the chances of having a "very easy to keep" rabbit for their entire lifespan is almost nil. They require a great deal of input from their owners and to describe them as EASY to keep is a total misrepresentation and it is because of people like you making such sweeping statements that rabbits get such a saw deal.

They are usually very docile but can be nervous and will bite, scratch and kick if cornered and frightened or when frustrated.

It is truely shocking to see this written the same paragraph as your previous statement that they are "very easy to keep". Indeed rabbits will bite, scratch and kick if frightened but if you have a rabbit behaving in this way regularly there is something very wrong with how they are being kept.Its disturbing to see this behaiour flagged up in the introductory paragraph as if it is "normal". It is NOT in the normal nature of rabbits to behave this way. A rabbit treated correctly and who is feeling well, safe and secure indeed, should NEVER display this behaviour. Which leads nicely onto the opinion that:

They are best kept singly

Absolutely and completely untrue. Total codswallop. Where on earth did you get your information from to come out with a statement like this???? Rabbits should NEVER be kept alone. They are group animals and are extremely sociable. Rabbits form bonds within their group that are exceptionally close and the loss of a friend or pack member results in a grief process just the same as humans experience. To quote the Rabbit Welfare Association: "Rabbits evolved to live in groups, never alone. Keeping a single rabbit deprives your pet of one of his most fundamental requirements; the company of his own kind." To quote the RSPCA chief vet advising on rehoming: "Rabbits need each other. Its as simple as that. Rehoming centres should make it a priority to ensure rabbits are not rehomed to a life of solitude." It is true that all rabbits kept in groups or pairs should be neutered or spayed to avoid territorial problems, but this is part of responsible rabbit ownership. In any case, rabbits given the correct amount of space should not have problems over territory anyhow...which leads me nicely on to:

in a hutch measuring at least 36 inches wide, 18 inches deep and 18 inches high. This should be subdivided, 40:60, into covered and outdoor compartments, respectively. The entire cage-front should be removable for easy cleaning. A wire-netting or weld-mesh floor helps prevent foot-soiling.

Bad enough that you would recommend keeping a rabbit alone...but now you want to subject it to this accomodation for 10 years?? This is inhuman. We are talking about an animal the size of a small cat. To keep a single rabbit in a hutch measuring 3 feet is an absolutely appauling suggestion. We would not advocate keeping a single guinea pig in something this size! Most medium sized rabbits could not take even 2 consecutive hops in a hutch this size. And as for your suggestion that 60% of this would be open to the air!! This would mean that the 40% (approx 14 inches by your measurements) remaining would mean the rabbit may not even be able to lay down in the sheltered area! Indeed our own rabbits could barely sit comfortably in such a small area. To quote the RWA on the matter of hutch sizes: "Hutches can never be too big. The minimum size for average sized rabbits is 5 foot long, 2 feet deep and 2 feet high. Exercise runs should also be as large as possible; ideally, at least 8 feet x 4 feet x 2 feet high. Instead of the traditional rabbit hutch, why not make your rabbit habitat an attractive garden feature? Be imaginative... garden sheds; summerhouses; or wooden Wendy Houses with an aviary/run built on the side (accessed via a cat flap) make ideal homes." This makes the accomodation you describe sound pitiful. Indeed someone taking your advice on this would end up with a rabbit in a pretty pitiful condition without any doubt at all. I think that this paragraph is perhaps the most disturbing on your website. "A wire-metting or weld mesh floor helps prevent foot-soiling." I am so angered by this statement. Yes, I'm sure that a wire floor will prevent soiling. It will also successfully cause extreme discomfort to the animals feet which will become sore and disfigured and develop over grown claws which will in turn catch on the mesh. The animals weight will be thrown backwards and it will develop sore hocks. Rabbits feet were never designed to walk on wire mesh! That is appauling. They should be given a comfortable, soft but firm base to walk on, just as nature intended. Asking them to live on a wire mesh floor is asking for trouble. In any case, a rabbit which is kept on appropriate bedding and is cleaned out every 2-3 days, with their litter trays cleaning daily will never suffer from foot soiling. Rabbits confined in this way will quickly become depressed (with the associated problems of poor immunity, agression and GI stasis) and will develop back problems, muscle wasting and osteoporosis. Most will begin to self harm to alleviate the boredom. I note you also do not mention any kind of stimulation, or toys for your rabbit in solitary confinement. Once again to quote the RWA "Rabbits need things to keep them occupied, such as plastic tunnels; large plant pots; hay-filled litter trays and planters of earth to dig in. Wild rabbits spend several hours foraging for food daily, so use your imagination when feeding your bunny. Scatter food on the floor of the hutch/run rather than feeding in a bowl, and provide constant access to hay."

Litter in the hutch should be absorbent. Peat moss is best......... because of the tendency of rabbits to chew (and swallow) their bedding.

Again, this is codswallop. I would never even consider keeping our rabbits on peat moss. The reason rabbits have a "tendancy" to chew and swallow their bedding is that they are grazing animals used to eating what is under foot. Hence, an absorbant bedding such as "megazorb" topped with a layer of edible bedding such as good quality hay is preferable and will encourage continual wear of their teeth. Peat moss encourages microorganisms to grow in the bedding and is NOT advisable. Over the years we have tried many different kinds of bedding, but peat moss is a recipie for illness and blistered sore feet as the rabbit tramps around in a "bog" in its hutch.


It is the responsibility of companies such as yours to promote health and welbeing in all animals be this pets, breeding stock or even lab animals. To put this kind of misleading and generalised information out into the public domain is grossly irresponsible in the extreme.

I will be contacting everyone I know in the animal welfare circles to bring their attention to this situation including all the veterinary practices In my area. I will be urging them to boycott the use of your products, and I will personally ensure none of your products are used in our rescue centre, until such time as this misleading information is removed from your website. I suggest that if you wish to use an animal "care" page to shamelessly promote the use of your products, that you are very very not to upset the very people who care for and advocate for the animals you claim to help with your medications and products. In my mind you have shown very clearly your business is nt animal welfare, but is instead profit and sales. This is most dissapointing.

You mention at the bottom of the piece on "care" that people should join the "British House Rabbit Association"...you should note they no longer exist and are now the Rabbit Welfare Association and the details you have given for them are also out of date. I will be sending this e-mail to them...and I feel fairly sure they will be as appauled as I am about the content of your site and the implication that they have somehow endorsed what you have written by putting their details at the bottom of the page in the same type face as the rest of your information.

I await your swiftest possible response.

Regards

Lorna Fields

Bailey says:
"Dont Breed or Buy while animals in rescues die"

www.greenfieldsrescue.co.uk
01344 488208
07739 147266
lorna.field@virgin.net
 
I was surprised to see the RO mag had an advert (p35) for a rabbit cage. The ad described it as "very large" but the dimensions are only 32"x22"x24" height. Thats just 2.5 foot by 2 foot!!!

I'd seen these before and thought the design was good but too small. I thought it was a bit off accepting the advertisment.

Tam
 
Have you approached the Company in question to get a response from them? You make some very, very, good points but it is always better to work with people rather than against them.

If you have what was the response?
 
Yes Bob, I have. The message above is a transcript of what I sent them. I accept that I sent it in anger....so perhaps one of you could write and offer to assist them with revising it?
 
Hiya, ITS ONLY ME.....Adele, sorry I had to come in to RU under another user name, as I could not Log in as normal!!
:roll: :lol:

I agree that the Vet Ark rabbit information is out of date.
i have emailed vetArk in the past and again just now, to see whether we can help update their web site with some up to date information.
 
Ooof!! :shock: Think I must have touched a nerve with what I sent!! :lol:
I have been accused of being "threatening" in their reply.....still, as you say Adele, sometimes you have to shout a bit louder than you normally wold to get yourself heard and all that....its not in my normal nature to be so VILE :twisted: you understand. Infact, it seems that when it comes to bunnies I will somehow defend them with all the venom I have...funny that..... :x :lol:
Anyhow...I digress..here is their response:

From: Peter Scott
Date: 11/11/04 10:25:47
To: Vetark Professional; lorna.field@virgin.net
Subject: Re: Rabbit "care" on your website


Dear Mrs.Fields

Thank you for your email. Its always nice to hear from enthusiasts even
when their views are at odds, its always amazing how many opinions
become facts when stated by enthusiasts. There is nothing so easy as to
pick holes in someone elses constructive advice, because that advice
always suffers from not being in book form and having to make
generalisations.

For the record. I did not write the sheet, it was written by Dermod
Malley FRCVS for us. Dermod is a widely recognised expert on rabbits
and wrote this for the average rabbit owner, he was a speaker at the
last Rabbit Welfare Association conference.

I realise that some of it is out of date but it has taken me two years
to get the website updated in 'look' and I am currently working my way
through the content. I am more than happy to look at constructive
advice and to credit that advice. If you and your friends would like to
prepare a replacement information sheet I will consider using it
instead.

Vetark is a serious company with veterinary input (mine at the helm and
others in reserve) - we do things properly and take advice but we are
critical. I have no intention of Vetark becoming a sounding board for
claptrap but welcome constructive comment.

I note your threats which are offensive in the extreme, they hardly
help justify your case.

Peter Scott FRCVS
Vetark Professional
PO Box 60
Winchester
SO23 9XN
tel: 0870-243-0384
fax: 0870-243-0382



So there you are!!Mind you, I note it has been removed from the website, so I think we will call it a minor victory. I see it has taken him "2 years" to get the site updated....TWO YEARS!!Lordy! I think he is VERY much in need of your webdesign service if ever I saw it Tamsin!!! :lol: You had our whole rescue website up and running from scratch in a matter of weeks!!! :D I also note that he says the information was written by an RWA vet...hmm...well seeing as the quotes that I have used AGAINST the information provided, it would seem that Mr Malley is not following the RWAs own advice when giving it out to others....odd huh?? Perhaps it really is very out of date indeed.
Anyway, I very much doubt that Peter Scott will have any wish to be working with me now that I have "threatened" him....but I hope it has left the way open for someone else to leap in and develop a more up to date rabbit care advice sheet with him. Please would someone strike while the iron is hot?
I'm sure I have probably gone entirely the wrong way around this situation by getting as angry as I did, but, it did work, the information has been removed and he is keen to update the site.....sometimes the end justifys the means.
 
Lorna I am awaiting a reply from VetArk with the intention and hopes that we can work together to produce a new information sheet.
If it is a positive response, I will post here so you give some ideas as to what you would like to be mentionned.
I am happy to write it though and can base it on the RWA information and other sources.
Please leave it with me, and I will do my utmost to help.

In VetArks defence, I have always received excellent service from them for their products, and they can only present the information available at the time.
Vets all vary in their general philosophies too, so will promote different aspects of rabbit care.

I agree with Bob, we all have to work together, and I know it is truly frustrating at times Lorna, but I think we have to remember that everyone is not as rabbit savvy as us.

Lets make this a positive experience and I will write some notes down re a possible info. sheet later. :D
 
Good News!! VetArk have said that I can update their rabbit care information pages :D I will try and address some of the points you raised Lorna.
 
I wrote to them this morning and received a very patronising reply, accusing me of being an "enthusiast". Therefore I am out of touch with reality and susceptible to claptrap!

If this information is not changed immediately, I will boycott their products and also cancel my subscription to the Rabbit Welfare Association until Dermod Malleys membership is rescinded.
 
Andrea all is well...there is no reason to be upset any further, the information pages have been removed so they can be updated, and no one else can view the out of date information.
VetArk are happy to change the rabbit care information, so that is what matters now. :wink:
If you make threats then people stop listening, we have to work together whatever our differing perspectives.

We do not own the vetArk web site, so I can only suggest the changes that perhaps need to be made, and hopefully we can at least improve what is already there. We are not seeking perfection, just an improvement to take into account more recent understanding of bunnies welfare needs. :D
 
Adele said:
Andrea all is well...there is no reason to be upset any further, the information pages have been removed so they can be updated, and no one else can view the out of date information.
VetArk are happy to change the rabbit care information, so that is what matters now. :wink:
If you make threats then people stop listening, we have to work together whatever our differing perspectives.

We do not own the vetArk web site, so I can only suggest the changes that perhaps need to be made, and hopefully we can at least improve what is already there. We are not seeking perfection, just an improvement to take into account more recent understanding of bunnies welfare needs. :D

Adele,

I trust you to make the correct recommendations to Vetark. If they take your advice then we can all breate a sigh of relief and carry on.

KR
Andrea
 
Laura, well done to you! You took the time and the effort to put across a very strong case and had the bottle to get up and say something, something that HAS made a difference!

Don’t apologise for what you have done – pat yourself on the back! Nowt wrong with having a passion for rabbit welfare or getting worked up when you feel that something is wrong and needs to be put right!

Without that “spark” from people such as yourself nothing would get done. How long was that information displayed on that site for? 2 years…? More….?

How much longer if you had not had the guts to stand up and shout and to put such a convincing case?

It is so easy to be “follow the mould” and not say anything for fear of ridicule or recrimination and to fit into that “mould”. As Adele says, you some times need to “shout” louder than others to get heard ;-)

Anyways – well done.
 
:D WELL DONE all for getting the info taken off and offering to give them more suitable suggestions. I'm appalled that anyone in 2004 could give that sort of advice about keeping rabbits, especially member of the RWA!

See RU make a difference :shock: , isn't it great? :D
 
Same here Laura, I agree with Bob well done.

I could not access this section of the site either yesterday, so I would definately say something was being done.

Its a bit worring that the guy who wrote it claims to be a rabbit expert :shock:
 
Maybe someone should point out that "enthusiasts" are the people that keep his company in business.

Your average pet rabbit owner who has little Fluffy in a hutch at the bottom of the garden and throws food in every couple of days if they remember because the kids don't even care they ever had a rabbit are not the ones who take their rabbit to the vet regularily or care enough about their rabbit's welfare to consider buying VetArk products.

It is the "enthusiasts" who spend hundreds of pounds a year on their rabbits and are the ones most likely to check out their website for info.

Upset us "enthusiasts" and they may very well lose money!

I think he got a little defensive and should have counted to 10 before replying but that is a lesson we all need to remember every now and again.

Caz
 
i think some may be getting a bit upset over nothing?
go on bite my head of im used to it :?
but this is old info they have now removed it which they may of done if someone had wrote or called and explain there concerns over info sheets!
i think at the end of the day many of you use there products i doubt many of you follow the advice given on website!
yes most of the site was c**p but then if your thinking of getting a rabbit you wouldnt just read one website and think right i will follow this site do all that they say!
i have used vetark before and have no problem with them to be honest i was working for them and read what they have been sent i would think rabbit folk all a bit looney! :shock:
ok some of us are but you wont get anywhere in life shouting a screaming you must be careful and cunning! :twisted:
but i think everyone needs to take stock of whats going on here as if we was to read any website involving buns we could pull it apart right?
noone knows everything always things to learn!
i think ease up on these guys they have removed there info done what was wanted maybe we should all think least they made the effort to try post some rabbit knowledge even if it was wrong!!!!!!!!
 
Yeah, as much as I think the statements they wrote are complete and utter c**p, they are writing to the "average" rabbit owner. As wrong as I think it is, most people that own rabbits buy them for their kids to "shut them up" if you like - and they are not going to spend a lot of money on a rabbit (i.e. large homing arrangements) as their kids are pri 1. I think this is why that site wrote that rubbish, because its a cheap option. I think its good that you put your point across and i hope they make changes. However if you got a new rabbit owner to read your statements and then look at theirs, they may go with theirs as its cheaper. I personally don't think anyone should own a rabbit unless they "really" want to own the rabbit.
 
Back
Top